NJCubScouter

Yeah, SP, why are you so angry about what an Eagle Scout did at his own ceremony? Also, it hardly seems appropriate to say he "hijacked" his own ceremony. (Especially when "hijackers" are people who kill people, thousands at a time in one incident I can recall.) Bando just made a speech at his own Eagle ceremony. Presumably, in his troop as in mine, Eagles are encouraged to give a speech at their own ceremony. So it's just an issue of him saying something you don't like. And based on his description (which is the only one we have available), he did it in a brief and respectful way. Sounds fine to me.(This message has been edited by njcubscouter)

Eagledad says: ...but I don't know much about them accept their leaders on this forum come off angry. I don't think any organization, or point of view, has a monopoly on anger as expressed in this forum. There's quite a lot of it to go around. None on my part, of course. I am always cheerful and happy-go-lucky...

Dean says: I don't understand why folks see it as an either / or situation, when set up correctly, it these different types of units can co-exist at the same time. Of course they can. And they will. The only real question is how much damage the BSA will succeed in doing to itself in the interim.

NJCS: You mean to say ALL those organizations hold a "Congressional Charter"? To really determine the answer to that, you would have to look at the statutes themselves. I found two sources that, for some strange reason, do not appear to be identical when it comes to the BSA, and I don't have time to actually read through all this and untangle it right now. So be my guest: http://uscode.house.gov/pdf/1994/1994usc36.pdf http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/subtitle-II/part-B

As fred8033 says, it's hard for us to comment from afar. And yet, somehow, we manage to do so anyway. (Sorry, I had to throw that in.) I agree with others who suggest that the big question here is, what does your son think? And more broadly, what do the boys think? Assuming that by "leadership positions", you mean that the SM or ASM/CC's son was appointed SPL by adult leaders without a vote of the boys, are the other boys concerned about that? Do the boys (in general, including your son) know that the SPL is supposed to be elected? Are the boys concerned that their youth leaders seem to be goofing around and not doing their jobs? On the other hand, I think there are limitations to "what do the boys think." Sometimes they do not know how things are "supposed to be" and they might not really be aware whether they are learning what they are supposed to be learning. If it is your conclusion that your son is engaging in a totally nonproductive activity, or a counterproductive activity, I think you have the right to strongly suggest looking for another troop. But also keep in mind that the grass isn't necessarily greener on the other side of the fence, or in the next troop over. These sorts of problems are, unfortunately, a result of our flawed human nature, and chances are the folks over in Troop 2 are human beings as well. Hopefully they are doing a better job of dealing with it, and at that point you and your son have a choice.

Cute, Pack. Different list.

One more thing on the Eagle ceremony; in our troop's "standard ceremony" there is always a time for "Voice of the Eagle", usually it's one of the last things in the ceremony (before the soda and cake, or the salad and ziti and whatever if the family has decided to turn the ceremony into dinner.) Usually the new Eagle thanks their family, leaders, fellow Scouts etc. and then talks mainly about their project. Some get a little more creative and talk about their future plans, and/or what Scouting has meant to them, etc. I think one told funny stories about what happened on a couple of camping trips, in response to a couple of his buddies who had given a similar speech earlier in the ceremony. In other words, it's their time. If they want to talk politics, they can talk about politics, but they may then learn what people think about discussions of politics in settings where people aren't expecting it and some might not think it's appropriate. It's all part of the learning experience. This reminds me of a story (not a funny story, but a story). I remember as a teenager, attending the Bat Mitzvah of one of my cousins, and it was during the Watergate scandal, and the rabbi gave a sermon about Watergate and what he thought of it and the moral lessons it can teach us. In the particular place and time and with the general composition of the "audience", it is probably reasonable to expect that most of those in attendance agreed with him. I know I did, and my parents did. But I suspect there were those in the audience who, regardless of whether they agreed with his statements, thought it was inappropriate for a rabbi to make what was essentially a political speech (with a moral lesson, but still a political speech) during a service that was focusing on the accomplishments of a 13-year-old girl. Hopefully he cleared his idea with my uncle and aunt beforehand, but I don't know about that.

Jeffrey H, do you (or anyone else here) have any evidence that the BSA actually revokes someone's Eagle when they send it back in protest? It just seems very unlikely to me that they do so. But if you can prove me wrong, prove me wrong. It would definitely say something about the current national leadership and management, and not something good. But I really doubt that it's the case.

Sorry for this long post, but since SSScout asked, here is the index to U.S. Code Chapter 36, Subtitle II, Part B, which lists the "patriotic organizations." The section about the BSA contains the BSA's "Congressional charter." I have never been quite sure what it really means in legal terms. Even the section about the rights to words, trademarks etc. doesn't mean very much because it doesn't specifically list any words or trademarks and says that this section does not affect any "vested rights." So basically it leaves it up to the courts to decide any disputes, just like regular old trademark law does. So here's the list. It's just a cut and paste so it may not be pretty, and I hope it doesn't break the forum software: CHAPTER 201AGRICULTURAL HALL OF FAME ( 2010120111) CHAPTER 202AIR FORCE SERGEANTS ASSOCIATION ( 2020120212) CHAPTER 203AMERICAN ACADEMY OF ARTS AND LETTERS ( 2030120307) CHAPTER 205AMERICAN CHEMICAL SOCIETY ( 2050120506) CHAPTER 207AMERICAN COUNCIL OF LEARNED SOCIETIES ( 2070120712) CHAPTER 209AMERICAN EX-PRISONERS OF WAR ( 2090120913) CHAPTER 210AMERICAN GI FORUM OF THE UNITED STATES ( 2100121012) CHAPTER 211AMERICAN GOLD STAR MOTHERS, INCORPORATED ( 2110121112) CHAPTER 213AMERICAN HISTORICAL ASSOCIATION ( 2130121307) CHAPTER 215AMERICAN HOSPITAL OF PARIS ( 2150121507) CHAPTER 217THE AMERICAN LEGION ( 2170121708) CHAPTER 219THE AMERICAN NATIONAL THEATER AND ACADEMY ( 2190121908) CHAPTER 221THE AMERICAN SOCIETY OF INTERNATIONAL LAW ( 2210122109) CHAPTER 223AMERICAN SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA LEAGUE ( 2230122312) CHAPTER 225AMERICAN WAR MOTHERS ( 2250122510) CHAPTER 227AMVETS (AMERICAN VETERANS) ( 2270122712) CHAPTER 229ARMY AND NAVY UNION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ( 2290122912) CHAPTER 231AVIATION HALL OF FAME ( 2310123112) CHAPTER 301BIG BROTHERSBIG SISTERS OF AMERICA ( 3010130112) CHAPTER 303BLINDED VETERANS ASSOCIATION ( 3030130312) CHAPTER 305BLUE STAR MOTHERS OF AMERICA, INC. ( 3050130514) CHAPTER 307BOARD FOR FUNDAMENTAL EDUCATION ( 3070130712) CHAPTER 309BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA ( 3090130908) CHAPTER 311BOYS & GIRLS CLUBS OF AMERICA ( 3110131111) CHAPTER 401CATHOLIC WAR VETERANS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, INCORPORATED ( 4010140112) CHAPTER 403CIVIL AIR PATROL ( 4030140307) CHAPTER 405CONGRESSIONAL MEDAL OF HONOR SOCIETY OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ( 4050140511) CHAPTER 407CORPORATION FOR THE PROMOTION OF RIFLE PRACTICE AND FIREARMS SAFETY ( 4070140733) CHAPTER 501DAUGHTERS OF UNION VETERANS OF THE CIVIL WAR 1861-1865 ( 5010150112) CHAPTER 503DISABLED AMERICAN VETERANS ( 5030150308) CHAPTER 60182ND AIRBORNE DIVISION ASSOCIATION, INCORPORATED ( 6010160112) CHAPTER 701FLEET RESERVE ASSOCIATION ( 7010170112) CHAPTER 703FORMER MEMBERS OF CONGRESS ( 7030170312) CHAPTER 705THE FOUNDATION OF THE FEDERAL BAR ASSOCIATION ( 7050170512) CHAPTER 707FREDERICK DOUGLASS MEMORIAL AND HISTORICAL ASSOCIATION ( 7070170708) CHAPTER 709FUTURE FARMERS OF AMERICA ( 7090170914) CHAPTER 801GENERAL FEDERATION OF WOMENS CLUBS ( 8010180106) CHAPTER 803GIRL SCOUTS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ( 8030180307) CHAPTER 805GOLD STAR WIVES OF AMERICA ( 8050180512) CHAPTER 901[RESERVED] ( ) CHAPTER 1001ITALIAN AMERICAN WAR VETERANS OF THE UNITED STATES ( 100101100112) CHAPTER 1101JEWISH WAR VETERANS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, INCORPORATED ( 110101110112) CHAPTER 1103JEWISH WAR VETERANS, U.S.A., NATIONAL MEMORIAL, INCORPORATED ( 110301110310) CHAPTER 1201KOREAN WAR VETERANS ASSOCIATION, INCORPORATED ( 120101120112) CHAPTER 1301LADIES OF THE GRAND ARMY OF THE REPUBLIC ( 130101130113) CHAPTER 1303LEGION OF VALOR OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, INCORPORATED ( 130301130311) CHAPTER 1305LITTLE LEAGUE BASEBALL, INCORPORATED ( 130501130513) CHAPTER 1401MARINE CORPS LEAGUE ( 140101140104) CHAPTER 1403THE MILITARY CHAPLAINS ASSOCIATION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ( 140301140305) CHAPTER 1404MILITARY OFFICERS ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA ( 140401140412) CHAPTER 1405MILITARY ORDER OF THE PURPLE HEART OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, INCORPORATED ( 140501140511) CHAPTER 1407MILITARY ORDER OF THE WORLD WARS ( 140701140712) CHAPTER 1501NATIONAL ACADEMY OF PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION ( 150101150113) CHAPTER 1503NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES ( 150301150304) CHAPTER 1505NATIONAL CONFERENCE OF STATE SOCIETIES, WASHINGTON, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA ( 150501150513) CHAPTER 1507NATIONAL CONFERENCE ON CITIZENSHIP ( 150701150713) CHAPTER 1509NATIONAL COUNCIL ON RADIATION PROTECTION AND MEASUREMENTS ( 150901150912) CHAPTER 1511NATIONAL EDUCATION ASSOCIATION OF THE UNITED STATES ( 151101151108) CHAPTER 1513NATIONAL FALLEN FIREFIGHTERS FOUNDATION ( 151301151311) CHAPTER 1515NATIONAL FEDERATION OF MUSIC CLUBS ( 151501151512) CHAPTER 1517NATIONAL FILM PRESERVATION FOUNDATION ( 151701151712) CHAPTER 1519NATIONAL FUND FOR MEDICAL EDUCATION ( 151901151911) CHAPTER 1521NATIONAL MINING HALL OF FAME AND MUSEUM ( 152101152112) CHAPTER 1523NATIONAL MUSIC COUNCIL ( 152301152312) CHAPTER 1524NATIONAL RECORDING PRESERVATION FOUNDATION ( 152401152412) CHAPTER 1525NATIONAL SAFETY COUNCIL ( 152501152512) CHAPTER 1526HELP AMERICA VOTE FOUNDATION ( 152601152612) CHAPTER 1527NATIONAL SKI PATROL SYSTEM, INCORPORATED ( 152701152712) CHAPTER 1529NATIONAL SOCIETY, DAUGHTERS OF THE AMERICAN COLONISTS ( 152901152913) CHAPTER 1531THE NATIONAL SOCIETY OF THE DAUGHTERS OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION ( 153101153107) CHAPTER 1533NATIONAL SOCIETY OF THE SONS OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION ( 153301153304) CHAPTER 1535NATIONAL TROPICAL BOTANICAL GARDEN ( 153501153514) CHAPTER 1537NATIONAL WOMANS RELIEF CORPS, AUXILIARY TO THE GRAND ARMY OF THE REPUBLIC ( 153701153713) CHAPTER 1539THE NATIONAL YOEMEN F ( 153901153904) CHAPTER 1541NAVAL SEA CADET CORPS ( 154101154113) CHAPTER 1543NAVY CLUB OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ( 154301154304) CHAPTER 1545NAVY WIVES CLUBS OF AMERICA ( 154501154512) CHAPTER 1547NON COMMISSIONED OFFICERS ASSOCIATION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, INCORPORATED ( 154701154713) CHAPTER 1601[RESERVED] ( ) CHAPTER 1701PARALYZED VETERANS OF AMERICA ( 170101170111) CHAPTER 1703PEARL HARBOR SURVIVORS ASSOCIATION ( 170301170313) CHAPTER 1705POLISH LEGION OF AMERICAN VETERANS, U.S.A. ( 170501170512) CHAPTER 1801[RESERVED] ( ) CHAPTER 1901RESERVE OFFICERS ASSOCIATION OF THE UNITED STATES ( 190101190112) CHAPTER 1903RETIRED ENLISTED ASSOCIATION, INCORPORATED ( 190301190313) CHAPTER 2001SOCIETY OF AMERICAN FLORISTS AND ORNAMENTAL HORTICULTURISTS ( 200101200106) CHAPTER 2003SONS OF UNION VETERANS OF THE CIVIL WAR ( 200301200313) CHAPTER 2101THEODORE ROOSEVELT ASSOCIATION ( 210101210107) CHAPTER 2103369TH VETERANS ASSOCIATION ( 210301210313) CHAPTER 2201UNITED SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS, INCORPORATED ( 220101220114) CHAPTER 2203UNITED STATES CAPITOL HISTORICAL SOCIETY ( 220301220315) CHAPTER 2205UNITED STATES OLYMPIC COMMITTEE ( 220501220529) CHAPTER 2207UNITED STATES SUBMARINE VETERANS OF WORLD WAR II ( 220701220712) CHAPTER 2301VETERANS OF FOREIGN WARS OF THE UNITED STATES ( 230101230107) CHAPTER 2303VETERANS OF WORLD WAR I OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, INCORPORATED ( 230301230313) CHAPTER 2305VIETNAM VETERANS OF AMERICA, INC. ( 230501230513) CHAPTER 2401WOMENS ARMY CORPS VETERANS ASSOCIATION ( 240101240112)

I'd be inclined to send them a letter regretting their decision, but noting that records of their obtaining Eagle have permanently expunged. Because they sent in a piece of metal and cloth? It's a useless and pointless gesture. It has no real consequences for anyone, including the sender, except that if they later decide they want an Eagle badge I guess they have to look for one on ebay. As for what Bando did (and what SeattlePioneer said about it), I'd say it's borderline-appropriate (my actual conclusion would probably depend on whether he talked about it for two minutes or less (ok) or a half an hour (hey kid, your 4-year-old cousin wants to know when she gets to eat the cake.)) Seriously though, we spend years teaching these kids to think for themselves and do things for themselves, and then when one does so in a way that doesn't fit into our nice neat ceremonial box, we call them names? I don't think so. We don't know exactly what words Bando used, but assuming he spoke in a respectful manner, I don't see any violations of the Scout Law here -- and certainly nothing that would warrant "not awarding" the Eagle. He was already Eagle. He was just being given symbolic tokens of his accomplishment with his friends and family present, and he chose that moment to make a "statement." I don't see it as a big deal.

I agree that it is a pointless and useless gesture. If I had an Eagle badge, I think my attitude would be, it's mine and you're not getting it back. I suppose I could send in my Life patch, but that would be even more pointless and useless. And I'd have to take it off my old uniform, where it has been firmly attached for approximately 39 years.

What do the British know about Scouting anyway? Yeah, it's not like it started there or anything. William Boyce must have been so lost in the fog that day that he didn't realize he was actually in Cleveland, not London. (Added: Ok, I guess Sherminator's right, you can never be too sure around here, so I'll do what he did: - sarcasm off - )(This message has been edited by njcubscouter)

I'll believe this change when I see it implemented -- just like every other change that someone reports in this forum after having "heard it from someone at the Philmont Training Center." (Or heard it from someone who heard it, or heard it from someone who heard it from someone who... you get the idea.) If every change reported in this forum as having been "heard" at the PTC had actually been implemented, there would be a lot of things different from they way are now. The only one I can recall specifically is the Cooking Merit Badge, which according to someone who heard it at the PTC, would have been back on the Eagle-required list for several years now. But there have been others, and I don't think most of them ever actually see the light of day. I hope the training they give there is better than the rumors they spread.

perdidochas, I am sure that someone speaking for the LDS Church did say that. Maybe it was in the context of "local option", maybe it was in the context of "everybody must open their doors", maybe it was both. But I am not addressing what they said, regardless of what context it was in. I am addressing what I think they would actually do.

I doubt that either the LDS Church or the Catholic Church would leave the BSA simply because the BSA allowed other units to accept openly gay leaders. As long as their own units were not required to do so, I think they would decide to stay put.

Sounds like a great way to get council leaders off the hook and start civil warfare among a lot of units. "Civil warfare" over what, Seattle Pioneer? Between who? You mean there might be disagreements within units over whether to permit a gay person to be a leader? How is that different from now, with regard to whether to have a female Scoutmaster, a leader who is known to have cheated on his/her spouse, a leader who has been divorced five times, a leader whose weight may not make them a good role model for healthy living, etc. etc.? All of these things may cause controversy within a unit. But ultimately it would be up to the CO of each unit. And if we're worried about controversy (a better term for this than "civil war", in my opinion), well, there's controversy now. It would just be different controversy, and it would go away fairly quickly. Maybe some people would switch units, but the dust would settle before too long. Having said that, I agree with NealOnWheels: This statement from Northern Star Council may not mean exactly what some people are assuming it means. It is indeed very carefully written, and it is not completely clear to me from this statement what the council would do if a CO selected as a leader a person who was openly gay, and the person's openly gay status became "generally known."

Is this for real, or is it April 1 again so soon?

...forced Venturing to come out... Interesting choice of words there, Eagle92.

blw2, we have one of those nearby, they call themselves "Aviation Exploring Post 107." Their adviser and some of the members ran an Aviation Merit Badge session at a regional airport a few years ago, it may be an annual thing but I'm not sure, since I only went one time with my son and 4 or 5 other Scouts from our troop. I am usually not big on merit badge classes (and this one had about 100 Scouts present) but I can tell you that the Scouts actually did all the requirements (including some "prereq" work that they had to do beforehand) - actually one of the Scouts from our troop did NOT earn the badge, because he did not do all the work, which I take as a sign that the counselor took his job seriously. The adviser/counselor did a lot of work setting up this program, with some interesting speakers including the local head of the FAA, an air traffic controller and several pilots including a Coast Guard officer in uniform. Well, I probably found the FAA person more interesting than the kids did. And in between sitting on the cold hard hangar floor listening to people talk, we toured different hangars and other parts of the airport. Unfortunately it was just about the foggiest day I have ever seen, so there was no flying going on and the "Young Eagle" flights which were scheduled that day (for which I had signed up my son, but was not required for the MB) were canceled. But it was a good program, and that's about all I know about our local Aviation Exploring (shouldn't it be "Explorer"?) post. Interestingly, to circle back to the general vicinity of what this thread is about, I suppose aviation is one of those areas where you could probably choose between having a Venture crew and an Explorer post, since aviation is both a hobby and a vocation. And the airport that sponsors the post I mention above is a privately owned airport, so I suppose they could have a crew if they wanted to, but they have a post.

Hmmm. Well technically I am "obese", though I am heading in the right direction and in another 15 pounds or so I will just be "overweight", according to my doctor. (I took offense the first time my doctor used the word "obese" at me, but that is what his chart says, and I suppose it has been part of the motivation in my very gradual progress.) Oddly enough though, I am already under the maximum for my height on the BSA chart. But then again, I have spent the last 10+ years in this forum advocating "local option" in the BSA and I now (although I didn't always) support the right of gay people to get married. And I don't smoke nor do I allow smoking in my house, for whatever that's worth. So do I get to stay in, BSA24, or should I say, Jonathan Swift?

This sounds like quite "a modest proposal" to me.

Well, Abel, maybe I was speaking a bit loosely. I don't actually know enough the school-based LFL program to say much about it. I guess I was really talking more about the Exploring program, which is under the LFL umbrella. There are Explorer posts, they do actual activities, I have seen them.

Is it just a farce to appease the critics or is it a viable option for those who disagree with the policy for Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts? I don't think it's either one. It's a real program, or a collection of real programs, depending on whether you are just talking about the school-based "Learning for Life" program (which, I recall reading somewhere, is actually not a "membership" program), or also about the "Explorer" program which is organizationally under the LFL banner. (I also saw a reference somewhere to a "Lions" program (kindergarten-age) that was under the heading of LFL, while other "Lions" programs are loosely affiliated with Cub Scout packs.) And I don't know that it "appeases" anybody. At the same time, it is not an "option" to the Boy Scout/Cub Scout programs, because it is really a different kind of program, or programs. The only area that I have heard of where there may be some "option" is between Exploring and Venturing, where there is a gray area between whether something is a "hobby" (for which a Venture crew would be formed) or a "career field" (for which an Explorer post would be formed.) There were a few examples discussed in this forum some years back, where there were Venture crews and Explorer posts covering basically the same field, but I forget what they were.

I always find it amusing when people who are defending the BSA's "membership policies" refer to the BSA as "them." It's like it's that organization way over there, with "their" policies. I like to think of the BSA as more of an "us." My family has been involved with the BSA for 74 years and it has had a strong effect on our family, and I like to think that we have had our own little positive impact on the BSA as well, at the local and sometimes the council/district level. It's not a "them" to me. And I suspect that many of those who refer to BSA as "them" or "their" when discussing these particular issues, think of the BSA more in terms of "us" and "our" when NOT discussing those issues.

Very sad. I suspect some members of our troop have crossed paths with this gentleman, as we go to Resica Falls for weekend camping every couple of years or so, and went to Treasure Island once or twice when it was open.