NeilLup

On a few occasions, I have attended the National Awards banquet of the Boy Scouts of America at the National Meeting. It involves:

Dinner

Presentation of the Silver Buffalo Awards to the top Scouters in the Nation

Presentation of the Youth in America awards to some of the top youth in the Nation

Introduction of the National Officers and their keynote addresses

Major league entertainment (the Oak Ridge Boys one time, Chely Wright another)

A reception for the Silver Antelope and Silver Buffalo recipients

It normally takes between 2.5 and 3 hours. And everybody there is an adult.

I find it inconceivable to have an event for young children that runs 4.5 hours and more inconceivable to have it run 6.

You know that some screws are seriously loose.

With respect, Scouter1960, I believe that you are putting the cart way before the horse. I understand your planning for the Blue and Gold and that not having the crossover would leave a big hole. However, the Blue and Gold and the crossover are supposed to be something done to recognize the Scout's accomplishments. For whatever reason, they haven't finished the accomplishment. It's a little like the high school graduation where they let someone go through and walk across the stage, but they don't get a diploma because they haven't finished. That leaves a bit of a bad taste or more in everybody's mouth.

And I have some real problems with rushing through the visit a Troop requirements. That is supposed to be a very special experience to give the Webelos Scouts a solid taste of Scouting, making them comfortable with the Troop and strongly motivating them to continue as Boy Scouts. If you force it and rush it, then what's the message? Our Blue and Gold ceremony is important but you and your continuing as a Boy Scout is not. In my opinion, very bad message and totally contrary to what we are trying to do in Webelos Scouting.

Let the boys do the Troop visits at the proper time, become enthused with the Troop and become active participating Boy Scouts. Don't sell the boys and Boy Scouting short. Come up with something else for the Blue and Gold.

It certainly is permitted to have patrols hike and even camp on their own.

What has changed in the last 50 years that I have been in Scouting is not Scouting per se, nor the nature of boys. What has changed is the attitude of parents, the legal climate and the generally accepted standard of care for adult supervision.

I remember that, as a kid, my mother would say "get out of the house." I would be expected to go out and play. She would stay in the house. I remember a time when, at age 8, a friend of ours and I were taken to a swimming pool about 5 miles from our house. We were told to call home for a ride. We spent our money for goodies, etc. but being clever boys, we saved our dime to call home. We put the money into the phone, got the switchboard in our apartment and then lost connection. What to do? No money? We were in a drugstore but we were terrified to ask the huge, strange man behind the counter for help. So we walked home. My dad found us about a half mile from home and there was a certain number of words said but no punishment and no recrimination.

At the age of 6 -- first grade -- our daughter walked to school about 3/8 of a mile each day. Nothing thought about it. At the age of 10 -- fifth grade -- she and 3 buddies walked to the subway stop and took the subway across town to school each day. Again, nothing thought about it.

I contrast that with the battery ad I saw a few days ago where the 5 or 6 year old in a park wanders out of sight of the mother and she has a panic attack. No problem, though, she turns on her electronic locator and the telltale on the kid shows exactly where he is. Much hugging, crying by the mommy, etc.

I also note the GPS devices put on kids cars, kids cellphones, etc. which are electronic tattletales and permit a parent, at any moment, to log in and know exactly where their child is. Passively. No action required or even permitted on the part of the kid.

I believe that many kids are taught not to be self reliant, not to expect to be self reliant and self reliance certainly is not rewarded by many parents. Rather, it can be discouraged or even punished.

A sad consideration that each Scout leader must take into account in any activity but particularly in one with no adults present is what would happen if some unforseen problem occurs. How comfortable would one be explaining to parents or even in court why this trip was undertaken without adult supervision. Imagine that mommy with the telltale device serving on that jury.

A Scout is Brave and Scout leaders need to be Brave too. Each Scout leader needs to decide where his or her bravery line is drawn in permitting independent youth activities.

As was correctly said, the problem is not with the kids. It is with the adults.

I do believe that the suggestion of permission slips very explicitly stating that the trip will be undertaken without adult supervision is a very good idea. I might even have that sentence explicitly initialled by the parent to make totally sure that they understand and concur.

"The Baby-Boomer's parents did not suddenly stop reproducing in 1961 so as to cause the sharp decline in 1972 as indoor modernists insist."

Actually, Rick, I think they significantly did.

Our daughter was born in 1973 which was the "trough" year -- the year of the lowest number of births. I believe that the birth rate was less than half the birth rate of some of the "peak" years in the '50s. The birth rate had, I believe, been dropping for almost a decade previous.

After 1973, the birth rate started going up but very slowly.

My council has had a very successful Merit Badge University for a number of years but we follow several basic principles:

1) We do not offer Eagle required merit badges. We rather offer the hard to obtain ones. We are fortunate to be able to use the facilities at Harvard University.

2) There are two sessions about 4 weeks apart. The Scouts come on the first week for a one hour session and learn about the merit badge. They have the 4 weeks to do the work. They then come back the second week and, if they have done everything, they get the merit badge.

3) There are three 1 hours sessions offered from 9AM to noon. A Scout can take a maximum of 3 merit badges.

As far as the Eagle mill, as Barry has suggested, that's hard to be specific about. A couple of the things that scream "merit badge mill" or "Eagle mill" to me are:

1) Merit badge classes at Troop meetings

2) Strongly stated expectation that if you show up, you will make Eagle

3) Parents talking about "our Eagle" referring not to their son, but to the family effort to get the award

4) Focus on the specifics of the requirements rather than on the Scouting experience. If you're out 10 minutes on a hike and hear "OK, we've identified our 10 animals, it's time to go onto something else", then those are the mill wheels turning

5) Focusing on advancement to the exclusion of some of the other methods of Scouting. Mandating, for example, that every Scout First Class and up have a job because they need it to advance.

Eagle Scout is, in my opinion, supposed to be hard and to require initiative on the part of the Scout. He is supposed to do things that are difficult and are physically, mentally and maturity challenging. It is HARD to phone up a stranger and make an appointment. That's the whole point of the exercise. It's hard to do. So if a unit subverts that part of the advancement process, they are doing some of the things that I think Eagle mills do.

The reason that Eagle Scouts of yore developed the reputation that they did is because they had to do these hard things. If our current Eagle Scouts don't have to do them, then they likely will not perform as the previous generations of Eagle Scouts did.

It's very hard to be specific, but after a number of years in Scouting, I can say as Justice Potter Stewart said about pornography "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced . . . ut I know it when I see it . . . "[1]

Hello Mike,

Technically, the OA requirements do not say "Boy Scout Camping". They say camping "under the auspices of the Boy Scouts of America." This could be significant because the Boy Scouts of America includes Cub Scouts and Venturers.

As a minimum, I would say that it would include.

- Troop short term camping

- Troop long term camping

- Troop high adventure camping

- patrol camping with no adults present if approved by the Troop and foreknowledge of the Troop adults

I would say that it would also include any camping done with a Venturing Crew although the election would need to be through a Boy Scout Troop.

Arguably, if the Scoutmaster so wished, it could include Webelos camping and even Webelos resident camping if that went six days and five nights. If a Scout earned First Class Scout in a year, his Webelos II year camping could be considered.

It would not include, in my opinion, family camping with nothing having to do with the BSA other than one Scout or a couple of buddy Scouts involved.

I have heard this provision interpreted to mean that the camping had to be at a Scout camp i.e. one of the council owned properties. I disagree with that interpretation.

What qualifies is completely the Scoutmaster's call and the lodge will not, or at least should not, question it. Normally on these matters, I give the boy the benefit of the doubt. If he is in the out of doors and just happens to be in cabins, I would probably count it. If it is a Troop skiing trip and the Troop stays in a motel, I probably would not.

Just some random thoughts on this thread:

1) As I understand it, part of the problem with attracting Latino Scouts is that in many of the countries from which these Latino families come, there is Scouting but it is an upper-class activity with no particular outreach to the other classes in the society. So that when one talks "Scouting" to them, there is a cultural negative reaction. It may be an imperfect analogy, but it would be like trying to interest most American families in polo.

2) The #1 song in 1965 was "Ballad of the Green Berets." The Green Beret was the symbol of the Rangers in Vietnam and they were highly respected. An earlier comment from that group was that "President Kennedy gave us back the beret." Currently, as I understand matters, all Army soldiers wear a beret as their headgear. So the beret is rather positive in the military culture. In the uniform options in 1972, there were four headgear options: The overseas cap, the baseball cap, the smokey the bear hat and the beret. The unit could choose its headgear. Why is there such hostility toward the red beret when a) berets are honored and favored in the military and b) they weren't mandatory? I still have mine and rather liked it. I thought they looked pretty sharp.

3) Nobody took the outdoors out of Scouting in 1972. Outdoor activities became the strongly preferred option. Most units continued to do things just the way that they had. Outdoor training continued just the way that it had with the exception of Scoutmaster's Wood Badge which extremely few people attended anyway ( and, by the way, I did.) What changed was that there were other options to achieve the purposes of Scouting. Unless one believes that outdoor activities in patrol sized groups are the only legitimate embodiment of Scouting, which Rick does seem to believe, then saying that the outdoors was taken out is, in my opinion, a major misinterpretation. There may have been a very tiny minority of youth who earned Eagle without camping but I didn't know any such youth. Eagle Scouts were just as much campers as they were before.

4) It wasn't only Tiger Cubs. In the 1960s, the Cub Scout program was 3 years long. Wolf at age 8, Bear at age 9, Lion at age 10 with the last 3 months before one turned 11 earning the Arrow of Light. One could not become a Boy Scout until one was age 11. In the early 1970s, the Cub Scout program was 3 years long. Wolf at age 8, Bear at age 9, Webelos at age 10, then join Boy Scouts. It is now 5 years long. Tiger at age 6, Wolf at age 7, Bear at age 8, two years of Webelos at ages 9 and 10, then Boy Scouts. Before one joins a Troop, they can have been involved in Cub Scouting for half their life and almost all of their sentient life. Parents can be involved for 5 years in a Pack.

Happy New Year!

"I guess I'm just having a hard time understanding why NOT try to get all 20- they are right there for us! Isn't that kinda like telling a boy scout that he only HAS to work on the eagle merit badges, so why try to earn more of them? "

Gosh, I looked back at my earlier post and I thought that the reason I posted was pretty clear but let me try again.

The reason is that I recommend against trying to get all 20 and having a recognition for all 20 is that my experience has been that boys who do that tend to get burned out and either don't them move to Boy Scouts or if they do become Boy Scouts, they tend to drop out early or else they and their parents become totally fixated on advancement and don't have a balance of the other 7 methods of Boy Scouting.

You mentioned that one of your Webelos Scouts is bummed because he didn't get aquanaut. Let me make sure that I understand. He has had a great Cub Scout experience, he earned the Webelos Badge, he has earned the Arrow of Light, he is ready to become a Boy Scout and he is bummed???!!! That's horrible!! If I understand what you have written, in my opinion, if that has truly happened, that Den and Pack have their priorities so messed up that it hurts!!

And as far as your analogy, the correct analogy would be to set up a system where if a Boy Scout chooses to earn only the necessary merit badges for Eagle and doesn't try to earn all 121 or whatever it is now, he should feel bummed and a failure.

Others may have a different experience and I respect that, but if you want a reason, that's the reason. It is misprioritizing the Cub Scout program and seriously overemphasizing advancement and activity badges.

Hello,

With respect to the several other posters who have suggested that the boy earn the Eagle from a Crew.

One can do that. No problem. However, if one has spent several years in a Troop, joins a crew and then two weeks later applies for Eagle from the Crew it certainly can cause some furrowed brows. IT would likely provoke some very pointed questions from a Board of Review.

I know of Crews and units who would argue that if a Scout transfers into their unit without a reason beyond their control (like moving to another part of the country) they want to see the Scout for a significant period of time before putting him up for advancement. In the limiting case, they might want him to do his 6 months tenure and 6 months position of responsibility in the crew. Granted, he has already accomplished those requirements but are they signed off formally anywhere and will his former Troop give him a reference saying they were done? You get the idea. Could be tricky.

There is a formal procedure in the "Advancement Rules and Regulations" for what happens if the Scoutmaster or Committee Member refuses to sign the Eagle application. Read that and, if necessary, put it into play. Since your son has been a camp staff member, etc. be sure to have letters of reference from his boss at camp, etc. for the Board of Review. Have Scouting people who will submit the letters of reference in his behalf. If there was a previous Scoutmaster, get a letter from the previous Scoutmaster.

There likely won't be a problem but if there is a problem, that's why there is an appeal process.

Having read this thread a few more times, I have a thought that is somewhat different from my original posts.

Let's say the scenario went like this:

Scout: I'm not sure exactly what these requirements mean. I'll ask my Scoutmaster.

Scout: Mr. Scoutmaster, I'm not sure what these requirements mean. Do I have to have a Position of Responsibility for each rank or does what I did as a First Class Scout count for Life and Eagle too?

Scoutmaster: That's easy and clear. What you did for First Class counts. You don't have to do it again.

Scout: Thanks very much.

The point is that in this scenario, the Scout had a legitimate question and asked the most reasonable and appropriate source for information -- his Scoutmaster. The SM then gave bad information.

In this case, where should the Scout be expected to go to get correct information after he has spoken with his SM? It really isn't the Scout's place to call the council or call National, particularly if his SM was very definitive.

Now to me, there can be no question, the requirement is totally clear

"While a Life Scout, serve actively for a period of 6 months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility: "

It would also seem that this Troop rarely gets Eagle Scouts, so it seems very strange that its Eagle candidate doesn't have a POR. But that kind of thing can, I guess, happen.

But as I think of the above scenario, I do ask where the Scout could and should be expected to go for information if his SM is clear, definitive and wrong?

Hello Lexington76,

There are a few assumptions that your units may be making that, while sounding nice, are probably incorrect:

1) If you deny the older boys the opportunity to join the Crew, they'll stay in the Troop and continue to be leaders

This may or may not be true. Troops often make the assumption that they "own" the older boys and that the Crew is "stealing" them. Not so. The boys are free agents and if the BSA isn't offering what they want, they'll go elsewhere.

2) Eagle Scouts have a "duty" or "obligation" to give back to the Troop.

Be really careful with this one. If someone is serving as a leader because of duty or obligation, you may get leaders acting out of grim sense of duty rather than a jolly game. I would agree that Eagle Scouts and indeed all Scouts if not all humans have an obligation of service. But that can be met many ways, not necessarily just by service to the Troop.

3) Older boys should want to be leaders for younger boys

Some do. But many, if not most, do not. They want to be with their peers and with (shudder, gasp) girls. That's why the BSA has Venturing, to meet the needs of many high school youth. Some Boy Scout Troops meet those needs but some do not.

What to do. Perhaps you can have the older boys join the Crew but continue to serve as Instructors and mentors for the Troop meeting with them not every week but frequently enough that it is meaningful. Perhaps some of the older boys in Venturing will want to continue to be more active with the Troop. I suggest that you talk with each older boy individually and don't necessarily take what the group leaders and loudest ones are saying.

But you risk that if you deny the older boys the chance to do Venturing, you'll lose them completely.

Hello brssakima39,

Welcome to the ranks of the adults. And thank you for a very well written, very thoughtful post.

I believe that all of us would completely agree with your four points. The tricky thing is to try to decide which more supports the youth:

a) Passing him on his Eagle in spite of his not having a POR and risking sending the message that he doesn't need to take responsibility and can blame someone else or

b) Not passing him on his Eagle (or "encouraging" him to conclude that he didn't meet the requirements and step down from consideration) sending him the message that he is responsible but then risking that he will get down on himself, hate Scouting, hate everyone in sight, feel self-justified and screwed, etc.

There is no 100% certain right answer in a case like this and no matter what decision the SM and BOR make, there is a risk that they will be making a decision that is not best for the youth.

At one time in our society, there would have been no question as to the decision. You don't meet the requirements, you don't get the award. That has changed and now, as others have stated, the benefit of the doubt is strongly given to the Scout.

Which is best? That's why being an adult is such fun There are no certain answers. But we are all trying to do what supports the youth.

So we wish you well with the new part of the Scouting journey. I hope you will find, as many of us have, that Scouting as an adult has helped us learn and grow as much or more as Scouting as a youth ever did.

"So, while taking them to a museum would be a good thing to do, that a lone would not fulfill these requirements. But giving them a test latter where they need to identify ten pictures could. "

Jet, with respect, I disagree with you on this last point. This is supposed to be a jolly kid's game getting youth in touch with the out of doors. I beliee that we are supposed to be getting kids outdoors, doing things in the out of doors, etc. To me the ten pictures doesn't hack it. I want the Scout to identify in the field the real thing.

Having said that, when I got my Nature merit badge (which was required for Eagle at the time), I presented to my counselor a notebook with the leaves of the 30 plants which were required collected by me in the field. He accepted it.

What a wonderful accomplishment, Angelous! Congratulations to you and your father-in-law.

This is an extraordinarily rare award. I'm not sure about the 200 since 1924 number but to give you an idea, in a typical year, there are

About 50,000 Eagle Scout Badges presented

About 2000 Silver Beavers

About 150 Medals of Merit

About 250 Heroism Award, Honor Medal and Honor Medal with Crossed Palms

In a very unusual year, there may be 10 Honor Medals with Crossed Palms; more commonly, I believe the number in a year would be 5 or fewer.

I have witnessed a number of National Court of Honor presentations and have had the privilege of presenting several Medals of Merit, Heroism Awards and Honor medals. But I have never even seen or met a Scout or Scouter honored with the Honor Medal with Crossed Palms.

Wow!

Totally concur with Lisabob. Perhaps they could do the museum in the morning, then go out to a local park and find some wildlife "on the hoof." And I don't mean the zoo.

The most wildlife we ever had was when we lived in downtown Boston. In our 30' x 30' yard, we had or saw:

Skunks (twice)

Raccoons

Opossums

Some kind of water rat

rat

mouse

Hawk

Many other birds

Squirrel

There would seem to be plenty of "fault" to go around.

First and foremost, the Scout. He is almost 18 years old and presumably can read. The requirements have been the same since he joined. He knows that he did not meet the requirements.

Second, the SM and Troop Committee. Same comments. They know that he didn't meet the requirements.

And finally, the EBOR. Perhaps their decision was correct and in the greater benefit of the human race. Perhaps not.

But I would agree with ScoutNut that there is nothing that can be done relevant to this Scout but in the Roundtables, Training, Council Newsletter, etc. of this council, plenty of noise can be made about POR.

That one is hard to fathom. The need for POR is clear and well known. I'm really surprised.

There is a new Unit of Supplemental Training -- Introduction to Leave No Trace on the BSA National Web site.

http://scouting.org/BoyScouts/TrainingModules/LeaveNoTrace.aspx

There is nothing saying that a Troop has to have a Librarian, Historian, Bugler, etc. If those aren't real jobs, don't have them.

As far as Scribe, I would suggest that a more modern name for that could be Webmaster. And most Webmasters that I know consider that very much a real job. Alternately, the Historian could be Webmaster.

At the risk of being inflammatory, how does what OGE described "Physically striking another person because of a comment" differ from spanking? Or to put it another way, do not many people believe that physical violence is acceptable when the person administering the physical violence is a parent and the person receiving it is their child?

Hello Bulldog Blitz,

I would suggest the answer is: find another unit.

You know, it appears, what Scouting can be. However, Scouting is very different from unit to unit.

These parents know what they want. They are well on their way to getting it.

The Scouts know what they want too. And, with the cooperation of their parents, they are well on their way to getting it.

I very much fear that you stand no realistic hope of changing the culture of this unit and the odds are that when these boys get their Eagle badges and the parents lose interest, the unit may die.

But you likely can find another unit that either does things the way that you believe they should be done or else where you can influence the culture.

Hello Keoki,

I want to clear up something that you wrote so that you and your son won't be disappointed.

You said that a troop in another DISTRICT will let your son register. If so, that may not help you as another DISTRICT would still be in the BG council and if someone notices, they may play the same game.

The only thing that would help would be if not only were the Troop in another DISTRICT but also in another COUNCIL. If that were the case, then there should be no problem. Is that Troop in another COUNCIL?

Beavah has given good advice. I would only say that I prefer not to put anything in writing over matters like this until I have a pretty good idea of what the result of the letter will be. In other words, don't write the Region until you have talked with the Region and ensured that they will indeed act as we all believe they should. Letters of that sort can have a way of bouncing around long after their planned result has passed.

Check out the 21st century Pioneer Award offered by the Boston Minuteman Council.

http://www.tinyurl.com/pioneer21st

We specifically had your concerns in mind when we created this award. There are several age appropriate levels of the award, two of which are for Cub Scouts. When the requirements are completed, the Scouts can earn a patch.

1) Thank you for posting the letters. That is most illustrative.

2) You really need to talk to the Region. They should be able to help you. Talk to the Asst. Regional Director who signed the letter. However, you may need to talk to Regional Director and possibly to the National Council.

3) Someone high up in the BG Council REALLY has gotten their nose out of joint. There is something going on and there is an excellent chance that you may not be able to find out what it is. It is even possible that the primary problem they have is not with your son since you indicated that there were other Scouts involved. They may really want to keep one of the other boys out but feel that if they let your son back, they have to let the other person back too.

Your situation is now WAY outside my experience in Scouting and, I suspect, way outside the expertise of virtually every other poster here. That's why I suggest you talk with the Region. You also need to make sure that if your son is denied the prerogative of registering by the BG Council, it "stops the clock" for advancement and doesn't mean that he ages out of advancement because of factors beyond his control.

Hello Keoki,

You may not want to do this, but there is a certain amount of editing going on here. I have no desire to know names, etc. but I would find it very helpful if you would type into the forum entry

1) The exact words (leaving out names, etc.) of the ENTIRE letter you got from the Region

2) The exact words of the ENTIRE letter you then got from the BG council.

That would be very helpful.