NeilLup

Twocubdad,

With deep respect, what you are suggesting flies directly in the face of what data suggests creates successful recruiting of Webelos Scouts.

The time to emphasize training in youth leadership is AFTER THE BOYS JOIN YOUR TROOP. The data (and yes, I have developed that data) suggests that having a Troop leader, ideally the Scoutmaster visit Webelos Den meetings and enable the Webelos Scouts to become confortable with him/her is the single most important factor in motivating Webelos Scouts to join and thrive in a Troop.

The youth influence and leadership can come through a solid Den Chief. But if you don't have that Den Chief, the Webelos Den is not the place to draw the line and expect the Scouts to go "cold turkey" with youth leadership.

Visit them, Make them comfortable. Get them into your Troop. Then, train in youth leadership.

Much would seem to become clearer.

It would seem that the Scoutmaster, for good reasons or bad, has decided that this young man should not become an Eagle Scout and that nothing that the young man can do will change that. When he decided that is uncertain.

It would also seem that the Scoutmaster is highly knowledgeable about Scouting and Scout advancement. He knows how to position the system and the facts so that the young man will not get Eagle, none of the procedures are violated and it appears that the Scoutmaster has been responsive and the Scout has not.

Finally, it appears that the Scoutmaster is known and respected in the District and Council so that his judgement and opinions are respected. He is considered to be a fair and competent person who would not "stick it to" a Scout without justification.

Frankly, with the information presented in those letters and facts as presented that the Scoutmaster expected the Scout to contact him and the Scout did not, I would probably have reached the same conclusion that the District and Council did.

Fortunately, there is one more appeal. If this appeal is to be successful, then the statements of the Scoutmaster must be rebutted or, at a minimum, transformed into "he said, she said." In that case, National will probably give the Scout the benefit of the doubt.

As I stated in earlier e-mails, I would write a very detailed letter describing my qualifications to be an Eagle Scout. It would be in two parts. The first part would document chapter, verse and footnotes how I had met each requirements. The second part would be a rebuttal of the statements by the Scoutmaster. This needs to be done with care as one is essentially stating that the Scoutmaster is not telling the truth. So I would start this part stating that I had read the letter and the statements by my Scoutmaster and that I great respect for my Scoutmaster and for persons holding the position of Scoutmaster but some of the things written there are simply not true. I would particularly document the efforts that I had made to get the Scoutmaster to talk with me. If I had letters or e-mails that I had sent documenting my efforts to talk with the Scoutmaster, I would attach those. If they were oral conversations, I would, as best I could, reconstruct the date, time and subject of each conversation and document them. I would state that this was the best of my memory. I would also address the other items. I would note in some place the formal percentage attendance requirements which the Scoutmaster and Troop has in place and state that I understood that such formal percentage requirements were not appropriate but I had done my best to attend and participate. I would also state very explicitly "I have done my best to live up to the principles of the Scout Oath, Scout Law, Scout Motto and Scout Slogan and I believe that I have met the Scout Spirit requirements for Eagle Scout rank." I would state that I really had not been given the opportunity to present this information at the District level and had no opportunity to present it at the Council level. At the end of the letter, I would probably say something like "I understand the seriousness of what I am saying. I swear, on my honor as a Scout, that everything I have written is true."

Perhaps I would also have one or both of my parents sign the letter stating that they are attesting to the truth of the statements. (I would welcome the thoughts of some other posters on this.) If there are any adult Scout leaders who will attest to the statements, I would have them sign the letter as attesting also. That might be very difficult to get.

Before sending it, I would have some very objective third party read the package of information plus my letter and have them give a very objective assessment I would follow their guidance on changes, etc.

Then you've done everything you can do. National will make its decision. And even if the decision is unfavorable, a person in their heart knows if they have met the requirements or not.

Hello Mdsummer,

If you still have the contact information, I would contact the Council Advancement Chairman again, indicate that there is a different point of view which you and your son would like to have considered and ask whether the Council Advancement Committee would be willing to consider that alternative point of view before rendering a final decision and making an appeal to the National Council necessary.

They probably won't but you don't lose anything by trying. It would appear that the Council Advancement Committee simply looked to make sure that the formal procedures were followed without attempting to to determine whether a fair and unbiased decision had been rendered at the Troop and District level. It then becomes absolutely essential to be sure that both points of view are presented to and are considered by the National Council. You likely will need to take the initiative in being sure that your son's point of view makes it to National -- it doesn't seem from what you have written that your local council sees any obligation to do that.

Hello NealonWheels,

Good name, but you spell it wrong

That omission is appealable, I believe, but I would rather suggest that it just be one additional item to be added to the information to National in documenting that procedures have not been followed. I wouldn't wait until National made their decision and then appeal again.

I do have concern that a very one-sided picture is being sent to National and that mdsummer and her son should do everything possible to make sure that matters are considered objectively and fairly.

Hello mdsummer,

These things are so unusual that there is really no "common" way. However, I would say that I am surprised and disappointed that your son was not given the opportunity to meet with the Council Advancement Committee. I believe that the National Advancement Committee works only on written materials.

I would suggest 3 actions:

a) I would ask to be allowed to visit or have your son visit the council office and view the entire package of information on which the Council Advancement Committee made its decision. My point is that it is entirely possible that they have documentation on only one side of the discussion. If that is also what is forwarded to National, then National will likely reach the same decision.

b) I would ask to talk with the Scout Executive -- top pro in the council -- and ask if he is aware of the situation and supports what has been done up to now.

c) I would call the National Council 972-580-2000 and talk with the National Advancement Group and find out how to makd sure that both sides are heard. If possible, discuss, in brief, what has happened and indicate your concern that your son's point of view may not be fairly presented in the information sent to National. Ask how to make sure that it is presented. The team leader for advancement is Bill Evans. I would ask to talk with Bill if at all possible. At this time of year, a lot of the National pros are at Philmont, so you want to move right away. If the appeal goes to the volunteer National Committee, it will likely be heard in October.

Hello Beavah,

Bureaucracy may be slow but this is one where, if I were on the Council Advancement Committee, I would make sure that my Ps and Qs were very carefully minded. This unit is clearly very knowledgeable about Scouting and is well wired at the District. This is clearly also not a case where the unit has made some transparently obvious error but rather, the reversal will need to be a reversal on the judgement of the Troop as to whether Scout Spirit was displayed. No matter what, someone very dedicated to Scouting will end up unhappy. The summer is undoubtedly a factor but so, I hope and suspect, it taking the time to do things right.

Hello Rick,

Thank you very much for your very thoughtful and insightful post.

I would imagine that most of us would agree with what you have written. The BSA exists as an organization and we serve as Scout leaders for the purpose of working with and helping youth and improving their citizenship, character and fitness. The Eagle Scout award exists as a means to that end and if and when becoming an Eagle Scout becomes an end in itself or detracts from a youth's experience, something is seriously wrong.

Each Scout unit -- Pack, Troop, Team, Crew and Ship -- is independent. Its leaders are chosen by its sponsoring organization or in some cases by the previous group of leaders and supported by the sponsoring organization. They are NOT chosen by the BSA nor, except in some exceedingly unusual circumstances, does the BSA really have any say in who the leaders are. We do our best to train and guide those leaders but ultimately, they are volunteers and we are volunteers and an individual group of leaders is encouraged to build a Scout unit of the type that they think will best serve youth within very broad guidelines. The local District and Council then do their best to help and support that unit and those leaders.

By and large, it works and works very, very well. Almost a hundred years of service have shown the great benefit that Scouting can bring to youth. But there are exceptions and problems as any program administered by humans can have problems. The situation documented in this thread would seem to be such a problem although, as many posters have noted, we are only reading one side of the story. There is an appeal system which is being pursued. Until that appeal system is exhausted, I would not suggest that the young man in question is being treated with gross unfairness. Remembering that our purpose is to improve the citizenship, character and fitness of youth, I would suggest that some of us might even say that for an older youth, it can be a powerful learning experience to understand that "life is unfair" as John F. Kennedy said but that even when unfairness seems to happen there are ways to rectify the situation, stand up for oneself and make things right.

I hope that you choose to have your son join a Cub Scout pack and pursue Scouting. It is the same great organization that your father remembers. But because each Cub Scout Pack has its own personality, I would strongly suggest that you investigate your local Pack(s) and their leaders and make sure that you are comfortable with what they are doing and who they are. I am very confident that you will be able to find a Pack where you and your son will have a wonderful experience.

I occasionally write about the time when I was a Scout and dinosaurs roamed the earth. This will be another of thise times.

I remember going on Scout campouts. There were, of course, no personal electronics but we did have magazines and books. On occasion, some older Scout would bring pornographic material. Stuff like Playboy. Did we read it? You bet we did! As another leader write eloquently on this list, it was our duty as boys to try to sneak looks a pornography. It was the duty of the leaders to try to stop us. We both did our best to do our duty.

I just mention this to indicate that I find it hard to call this "Shocking!! Shocking!!"

In the case mentioned, I wonder where are the SPL, the PLs and the PLC. As I see it, there are at least a few alternatives about the no "mature" games and no "R" movies restriction.

a) This was the idea of the PLC

b) This was the idea of the SM and the Committee and the PLC willingly signed on and supported it

c) This was the idea of the SM and the Committee and the PLC was told "If you want to have a 'fun' campout with electronics, then this is the restriction." The PLC said "Oh, all right, we want the fun campout, so we'll go along with the restriction."

d) The PLC was told "We're going to have a 'fun' campout and these are the restrictions." They were not invited to give input or to buy-in.

e) There is no PLC or it's just a figurehead with no real leadership role.

Depending upon the role and status of the PLC, the situation can be determined. It is likely that it was older boys that brought this material. Possibly PLC members. Certainly the PLC members knew about it and could have asked or directed that it stop and/or informed the SM and other adult leaders when the incidents occurred. It seems very unlikely that the material was brought only by younger boys. So there was every opportunity for the PLC to effect the restrictions in place for the campout.

I believe that the response by the SM and other Troop adults is gross and completely inappropriate. The peer pressure on a younger Scout in a situation like that is extreme. If the youth leaders didn't act, how can a younger Scout be expected to do so. Also, the response by the adult leaders suggests that the problem was not bringing the material but rather complaining about it or remaining when it was being used. By that definition, virtually every Troop member has a similar problem.

I don't blame the parents for leaving the Troop but my reason would be very different. The PLC didn't do their duty and the Troop leadership seems to have no idea about how to address that or else doesn't care.

To me, some Scoutmaster's Conferences with the PLC members and/or Board of Review for non-advancing Scouts with the PLC members would be the appropriate action. Find out what happened and why youth leadership was deficient. Then correct it.

Fair enough. Thank you.

1) If your son completed attendance requirements and POR requirements at any time during his service as a Life Scout, that meets the requirement. It does NOT need to be immediately before the Board of Review. This is an extremely common misinterpretation of the advancement requirements.

2) Percentage attendance requirements are strictly prohibited, as I understand matters, for meeting Scout Spirit, active Scouting and POR responsibilities. Any attempt to impose such requirements should be reversed on appeal.

3) Scout Spirit is different as ranks become higher. More is expected. For some Scout leaders, Scout Spirit for Eagle Scout is qualitatively different. The advancement requirements don't support such a qualitative difference. Eagle Scouts do not need to be perfect, walk on water, etc.

4) The incident you mention on a campout would seem to be "he said, she said." That's a problem if two adult leaders say one thing and nobody is supporting your son.

Based on what you have written, subject to verification, Board of Review, etc. if I were an appeal board member, I would vote in favor of your son. I am not on the appeal board. I would suggest that the appeal to your local council be pursued and then, if necessary, an appeal to National be pursued. The results should be favorable. Strange and unexpected things sometimes happen but I hope not in this case.

I again would suggest that the approach your son should take on appeal is "I met the requirements to be an Eagle Scout." I would hope that our system works.

Hello mdsummer,

This thread started out trying to give information to help you and your son with his Eagle Scout process. It has moved to a diatribe against Scout leaders. That's unfortunate.

Reading between the lines of your last post it would seem

1) Something negative, possibly very negative happened

2) The local Scout leadership believes that your son was involved and possibly was responsible

3) Your son believes he was not responsible and so expressed to the local Scout leadership

4) This disagreement has impacted your son's Eagle Scout process

Several posters have asked for information like exactly what your District has said to you. Absent that information, we can only comment in generalities and help you with preparing for the appeal process in general terms. Even with the information, we could only comment "Gee, that doesn't sound that bad" or "Wow, that is pretty serious." In either case, we do not have authority or responsibility for what happens in your local council or even in a National appeal. However, Scout leaders most places are pretty similar and your local leaders are likely not that different from those of us who post on this board.

So if you want to share more information with us, that's great, we can comment in greater specifics and help more specifically with your appeal. If not, that's OK too and we will try to help with generalities.

However, and I hope you don't find this comment offensive, at a certain point, I'm reminded of one of the very favorite stories of the nuns in my grade school. The story was about a group of children marching in a parade in formation and one mother proudly shouting out "Look, everybody's out of step but my Johnny!"

Hello Thunderfox,

With respect, I'm not sure that you're correct about what an Area or Regional Director can do within the Professional Service of the BSA.

It absolutely is true that the Region can put an SE on the promotion list. However, the SE does not need to accept any promotion that they do not want.

I am not certain that the Area or Regional Director can "fire" a SE as we would normally think of that. The BSA can withdraw the Commission of any person and then they are ineligible to serve as a professional Scouter in any position. However, I believe that if the Council Board says "We like our SE" and the SE says "I like it here and I want to stay" absent withdrawing the Commission, the Region has only pursuasive power.

Same thing with reassignment. If the SE and Council Board are happy with each other, I don't believe that the Area or Region can force the matter.

Hello Thunderfox,

With respect, I fear that the relationships you have listed of National>Region>Council>District, etc. are not accurate. Life isn't quite that simple.

First of all, I truly dislike the term "chain of command" when it applies to Scouting. We aren't the military and we don't have commands. We have an organization structure and we have areas of responsibility. We have leaders and followers. We don't have commands.

But also, there is indeed a National President and a National Commissioner chosen by the National Nominating Committee and elected annually by the National meeting (which, by the way, happened two weeks ago.) The Chief Scout Executive is an employee of the National Council selected by a National ad hoc selection committee and ratified by the National Executive Board.

National Employees and Regional Employees are ultimately chosen by the Chief or by persons selected by the Chief.

Local Council Scout Executives are chosen by an ad hoc local council selection board appointed by the Council President. They choose the Scout Executive from a list provided by the Region. But the choice is made locally, not by National or by the Region.

The Regional President and Regional Commissioner are chosen by the Regional Nominating Committee and elected at the Regional meeting each year, which occurs at the National meeting. They are NOT chosen by the National officers.

The Council President and Council Commissioner, in similar manner, are chosen by a local council nominating committee appointed by the Council President. They are elected at the Council annual meeting. The local council is totally independent in the people that they choose for these officers. They are not chosen or ratified or in any way influenced by the National Council, or the Region or the Area. Each of the 300+ local councils is a totally independent corporation.

The District Chairman and District Commissioner are designated by the District nominating committee although there probably is some involvement by the local council.

The Unit Commissioner is NOT over the individual unit. The unit is independent. The Commissioner can provide help and guidance and support and counsel but there is no reporting relationship. The only real authority that the local council/district have is the ultimate authority. They can decline to recharter the unit. Everything else is pursuasion.

The same thing is true at the local council level. The only real authority that the National and Region and Area have is the ultimate authority. They can refuse to recharter the council. They can refuse to provide candidates to be the Scout Executive. But other than that, it's pursuasion, guidance and help.

Hello Steveo,

You have made some wonderful observations. It's very tough for a youth leader in Scouting because, for you and for the younger Scouter, this may be their first real example of peer leadership. All their previous experience has been with a very hierarchical leadership (parent to child, teacher to pupil, den leader to Cub Scout). Now, the leadership is with another youth and it's a new experience.

So your Troop members need to be trained on how to be followers in peer leadership just as the leaders need to be trained and it's particularly difficult if your Troop adults don't understand and don't buy in.

Here's one suggestion. It's one that parents of young children learn to use and it may help with your younger Scouts too. In asking their opinion, don't give too many choices and too many options. One doesn't ask a two year old what they'd like for dinner. One asks "Would you like to eat your peas or your carrots first?" So they are learning to make choices but from a tolerable and manageable range.

Similarly, you might not initially ask your Scouts where they'd like to go camping. Rather, you might start by listing two camping options and having them choose which one they'd like to go to. Then, after they make a choice, you might ask if there are other places they'd like to consider for next month. Or you could assign one place to be considered to each PL and they report on their assigned place and then the PLC decides.

The idea is that they have "bite sized" choices and their capability for leading and for following gradually grows.

Not doing this was a mistake that I made as a young Scoutmaster. I asked the "where would you like to go" question and got blank stares.

It sounds as if you're doing a great job. Keep it up.

It is not "wrong" to be in casual dress but I would say that it is very, very right to be in full Cub Scout and Den Leader uniform. I would also suggest that you be sure that the Troop knows that the Cub Scout and Den Leader are coming in uniform and that they are recognized during the Court of Honor and the Cub Scout, in particular, is made to feel very good and very welcome. If, for example, the Scoutmaster speaks directly to the Cub Scout and says that s/he sure hopes that he will join the Troop when the time comes, it may really make a difference.

In uniform -- absolutely!

It is not "wrong" to be in casual dress but I would say that it is very, very right to be in full Cub Scout and Den Leader uniform. I would also suggest that you be sure that the Troop knows that the Cub Scout and Den Leader are coming in uniform and that they are recognized during the Court of Honor and the Cub Scout, in particular, is made to feel very good and very welcome. If, for example, the Scoutmaster speaks directly to the Cub Scout and says that s/he sure hopes that he will join the Troop when the time comes, it may really make a difference.

In uniform -- absolutely!

Hello climberslacker,

Welcome to the forum. We hope we can be some help to you.

You have gotten some great advice.

- setting the example

- occasionally giving "goodies" for people in uniform

- giving nice opportunities to Scouts in uniform

I would add being sure to praise the younger Scouts when they are in perfect uniform. Compliments like "your uniform really looks sharp" from you will really make a difference particularly if they are being put down by some of the non-uniform wearers.

You need to change the culture of the Troop. That can be tough to do but you likely will need to chip away at it.

Does your SM always wear his/her uniform? How 'bout the ASMs? Can you get them to praise Scouts in uniform also?

Making that culture change can be difficult. Stay on it and let us know how it works.

Things worked out well, gwd. That speaks well for you, your Scouts and your Troop.

Now you just need to make sure that the boys can make it to their Ordeal. And, if possible, make sure that your current OA members seal their membership by becoming Brotherhood members. Be sure that they know about Brotherhood membership.

It really is almost a broken record but here is what the circumstances commonly are in these situations:

1) Young Scout is active, advances promptly to Life Scout and begins working on Eagle Scout

2) At about age 15-16, Scout succumbs to the siren call of gasoline, perfume and perhaps athlete's foot powder. Remains on the Troop rolls but stops attending and participating much and possibly at all

3) Some months, weeks or even days before he turns 18, Scout or his parents want him to complete his Eagle. He likely finishes up his project, maybe earns a last MB or two, completes the application and turns it in to his SM

4) SM, possibly a different SM than when he was a young Scout, says to himself or herself "Who are you and why are you bothering me? Where have you been for the last few years. Your failure to plan ahead does not create an emergency for me."

5) SM refuses to sign application for someone he or she does not know and whom they believe has not shown Eagle Scout Spirit and character. Failure to attend recent activities is considered prima facie evidence of poor Scout Spirit and character

6) Scout doesn't know what to do, does something which is not in line with the official appeal procedure (which he has not been provided) or believes in good faith that the adults will treat matters objectively and fairly and that the adults are moving things along

7) Scout either passes his 18th birthday or is very close to it and realizes that nothing is happening or else that action is being taken actively to block his Eagle

8) Someone connected with Scout posts on these boards asking what to do

Each case is very fact specific and any appeals take into account the specific facts of that Scout's Eagle. In the case listed, I hope that a cover letter was sent with the unsigned Eagle application asking that it be processed, asking for a Board of Review or an appeal, etc. If so, the date on that letter can be important as it documents the request occurring significantly prior to the 18th birthday. If no letter was sent, hopefully his original unsigned application sent to the council can be found and was date/time stamped. Again, this will document the original date of the application

I would furnish the Scout and his parents a copy of the Eagle appeal material. I would suggest that they formally begin the request/appeal process paying particular attention to dates that earlier material was submitted. I would talk with the DAC to find out how long it is expected that action will require and would follow up and pursue.

One never knows on appeals to National but in a case like this, I believe that the request to National to hold a Board of Review will very likely be successful particularly if there is documentation that the Scout made his request for a BOR in October and there has been no action. That will very likely be considered to be a delay beyond his control.

jark, congratulations on becoming DAC. These situations are rare and should be rarer. I would only suggest that immediately upon learning of such a situation, furnish the Scout with a copy of the Board of Review and appeal procedures and counsel with them on how to proceed. Possibly you would want to have a standard appeal request drafted for the Scout to complete to get the ball rolling. I would probably scan the appropriate pages from the advancement manual as a .pdf file so you could e-mail the information to the Scout, his parents and his Scout leaders immediately upon learning of a potential problem.

Hello Lodge 489,

One thing I would suggest that you and your son consider. If he is a somewhat older Scout, he might consider participating in NAYLE (National Advanced Youth Leadership Experience.) It is designed to run concurrent with a PTC course so that he would leave for about the time you get in and then be returned to you on Friday. IT's a great experience. He would need approval from your local council.

Check it out

http://www.nayle.org/

http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/Resources/NAYLE.aspx

I'll repeat the story that I have to post every so often when Eagle Scouts are mentioned.

A few years ago, I was having a dinner with 3 other Scouters.

One is a National Vice President of the BSA and received the Silver Buffalo at the most recent National meeting.

Another is a member of the National Advisory Council, past Chairman of the National Court of Honor and Silver Buffalo recipient.

The third is past Chairman of Training for the BSA, member of the Northeast Region Board, Silver Antelope holder and retired Navy 3 star Admiral.

I was the only recipient of the Eagle Scout award. The other 3 had been Life Scouts.

I don't plan to tell any of them that they didn't understand what the BSA meant nor that they didn't have what it takes in terms of citizenship, character and fitness.

So are they Life Scouts or were they Life Scouts. Frankly, as long as they (and hopefully I) contribute to the next generation of youth in our country, I really don't care.

After over a hundred posts, I guess there are still a couple of questions:

1) How long ago did your son earn his Life Scout award? Was it prior to these periods about which the District is complaining?

2) Is the critique by the District accurate? Did his participation, activity, etc. drop off? That is not necessarily a disqualification but it can be important to fact the facts.

Hello Scouter 760,

It may seem like throwing out the baby with the bathwater to you. However, you are not the boy with no dad who cannot attend a council sponsored event because he doesn't have a dad. There is nothing that occurs on Dad and Lad that cannot occur on Parent and Pal. Other than making boys with no dad feel unwelcome and uncomfortable. What contribution to the citizenship, character and fitness of youth is accomplished by conducting an activity which welcomes dads but excludes moms?

Great galloping heffalumps!!! Do we STILL have "Dad and Lad" campouts??

I served on the National Single Parent Task Force in the early '80s. We identified "Dad and Lad" campouts as a problem for exactly the reasons identified and suggested that campouts which were for only one sex of parent be discontinued. We also recommended discontinuing the suggestion in the name that it was the parent who would be attending. That was twenty five years ago!!

The idea that we are ruining father/son campouts by doing this is so much horse hooey. Any father who wishes can take his son on the campout and for them, it's a father/son campout. How does it ruin matters for them if some OTHER boy's mother is the one who comes. It only ruins it if the father in question has a big problem with women or if for some other reason (religious?) he has a problem camping with women or believes that some unique male secrets (writing names in the snow,etc. ) will be compromised if some other boy's mother is there.

I had hoped we were long past this. I'm truly saddened that we are not. But from experience, I believe that if you bring this kind of thing thing up to the people that insist on the "Dad and Lad" weekends, you'll likely first hear about political correctness and from there, it will go to socialism and then Katy bar the door. It is even possible, although I hope unlikely, that this is a statement being made and a shot fired across the bow of this two woman household.

On the other hand, maybe I am overreacting. Are "Dad and Lad" weekends really scheduled or is this a concern of this woman based on what she may have heard? Is it a real problem? If there really are Dad and Lad weekends --ARRRRRRGH!!-- then by all means, send some other man. As mentioned, he simply cannot stay in the same tent with the youth.

The Scout Oath does not require us to be perfect. It requires us to do our best. You did that. You are continuing to do that by asking this question. You are measuring up to the standards required by the Scout Oath.

As leaders we are expected to set an example. In my opinion, this does NOT mean that we have to be perfect. It rather means that if we make a mistake, we set the example of how one handles a mistake. We teach the Scouts how to deal with our mistakes. That may be one of the most important learning lessons that we give.

I once yelled at a Scout in front of the Troop and used inappropriate language. It was intentional as the Scout used this type of language to others and I asked how he liked it. It was suggested to me by several Scouts and by the boy's father that I had acted inappropriately. Upon reflection, I agreed. I apologized to the boy in front of the entire Troop. He accepted it and we moved on.

Some people believe that adults should never apologize to or acknowledge weakness to youth. I've never felt that perfect. I may be someone's boss or their supervisor or have responsibility for them, but that neither requires nor empowers me to be perfect.

I have heard it said by bridge players that if you make all of your slams, you aren't bidding enough of them. Similarly, I believe that if you are always cool, always in control and never make errors in dealing with people, you aren't revealing enough of yourself, aren't getting to know them and aren't "pushing the envelope" in developing citizenship, character and fitness.

Ask youself how, if you were a youth, you would like the Scoutmaster to handle this situation. The SM is an adult and will have authority before and after the incident. Don't promise never to do it again; you may not be able to keep that promise. If you feel you acted inappropriately, apologize for it, take responsibility and move on.

"

*The SM put a new kid from another feeder pack into my kid's patrol. This boy is in my kids class at school, and my kid loathes him. This is the class pariah who picks his nose. My kid is not a snob, but there are limits. "

Hello Daddy-O,

This line from your post has kept gnawing on me. If I had been in your son's school and your son's Troop, I probably would be put in the same category. I would probably have been considered the class pariah and low status kid. I probably even was considered to pick my nose on occasion.

There is an extremely clearly defined pecking order and status in middle school. The jocks, the beautiful people and the socially elite are at the top. The weird kids, most physically disabled kids, and the outcasts are at the bottom. The nerds are slightly above. Then there are those in the middle who occasionally get to mingle with the high status kids, when numbers are needed, but not always.

One of the things that I liked about Scouting was that point of the Scout Law "A Scout is Friendly." The fine print said "A Scout is a friend to all and a brother to every other Scout." Being an only child whose parents had moved to the middle of nowhere with no one else around, that meant a lot to me. If I showed up for a campout prepared, I got to go and participate. I didn't need to worry about being excluded by the high status kids or not even told that something was happening. Granted, it wasn't perfect. Order of the Arrow elections were a cruel pain. Patrol Leader elections could be a cruel pain also, but normally there were enough appointed leadership jobs that there was something that I could do. And over time, I learned and it got better. But that learning experience and what it did for me is the largest part of why I have stayed in Scouting.

Some of the high status kids and jocks started out in Scouting also. By and large, they dropped out in my community. Scouting wasn't the high status thing to do. Some did stay and they were wonderful Scouts and wonderful leaders too. Normally, this happened when their parents believed in Scouting and stayed active as leaders.

As far as "there are limits", I don't know which Bible you commonly read, but in my version Matthew 18:21-22, it suggests that one should forgive "seventy times seven" which in the vernacular of those times meant an uncountably large number. I am sure that the young man in question does not wake up in the morning, look in the mirror and say "Today, I'm going to be a pariah. I going to do everything that I can to be low status and to be picked on." It is not your job and your son's job to help this young man, but neither is it appropriate, I would respectfully suggest, to reinforce his low status. It would appear that your son is high status, likes that (understandably) and wants to keep that, possibly by keeping others in lower status. With respect to you, it would appear that you are reinforcing and supporting this behavior in your son. I well know that associating with lower status youth is a way that high status youth compromise their high status. I believe that is part of the reason that high status youth sometimes drop out of Scouting.

There would seem to be some agendas operating with you and your family which are much more complex than just Scouting or non-Scouting. The Scouting program is there, what it can do is well established and can be extraordinarily beneficial. But you and your son need to decide what you want at this time and whether principles like "A Scout is Kind" and "A Scout is Friendly" are at odds with the limits you wish to set.