NeilLup

Hello Keoki:

There is something that puzzles me a great deal about what you have written.

Your son was denied registration by the local council. So far, I understand.

Your son appealed to the Region. That is his prerogative.

The appeal was successful and the Region said that your son could register again. Hurrah!!

You then went back to your local council and after 60 days, they essentially said "We don't care what the Region said, we don't care that the appeal was successful, we refuse to register your son."

As I understand matters, they can't do that. That's the point of the appeal process. Either they are completely out of line with BSA procedures or else they went back to the Region and got the Region to change their minds.

It's a little like appealing a court decision, winning the appeal, and then having the lower court saying "We don't care what the appeal court said, we're going to do what we originally said."

Presumably you have a letter from the Region stating that the appeal was successful. Presumably, someone signed that letter. I would imagine that was likely the Regional Director although possibly somebody else.

I would do one of two things; which is up to you.

Either resubmit your son's registration with the Troop attaching to the registration a copy of the letter from the Region stating that the appeal was successful. Indicate that you have followed the appeal process, been successful and you request that the local council honor the results of the appeal process.

or

Contact your Regional office and talk to the person who signed the letter. If that person is a volunteer or is unavailable, ask to talk to the Regional Director. Communicate what you have written here that you had a successful appeal of denial of registration and the local council is refusing to honor the appeal. Ask what you should do and ask for their help.

Something is very, very strange here.

Hello,

I am so sorry for what you and your son have gone through.

It was not clear if he is again registered with the original Troop. If so, it maintaing some Scouting. If not, it may not provide what you wish but if you and your son wish to maintain some Scouting involvement, you might consider talking with the Region about having him register as a Lone Scout. This would at least allow him to continue to participate in Scouting although in a different way.

I cannot speculate on the reasons for the Blue Grass Council's actions. Having been through some such actions on the other side, I wonder with all respect to you whether there are any possible factors that you are not aware of (your son has not told you) or that might be entering into the situation. I know that in some cases I have seen, the point of view of the parent and/or Scout appears to be very much at variance with the facts or objective circumstances as our council has done our best to determine them.

Scouting does try to mentor. But Scouting is comprised of individual leaders and any individual leader only mentor to the extent that they wish and that they feel comfortable. You haven't said what your son's unique behavior characteristics are nor is it really my business. But could it be the kind of thing that would cause other leaders not to want to be involved or to think that the unit, sadly, would be better for all concerned if you son were not connected.

There is a Unit of Supplemental Training on the National web site about working with youth with ADD/ADHD www.scouting.org. It might help you or your unit to explain some of what is going on.

If I were you, I would again contact your Region and get their counsel. They might be able to help you.

Hello Proud Eagle,

1) From one point of view, this is your problem. However, my wife has a saying "You can't save every sick kitten." Don't allow this to to remain totally on your shoulders or you will be providing an unpaid baby sitting service for parents.

2) This is your District's problem. Get your DE involved right now. If the district leadership is weak, that represents a serious problem but again, not your problem.

3) It really will be a shame if a unit with 358 months of service does not recharter. However, that service is only relevant if it helps engender others to step up. If not, folding now will not tarnish the service which the unit has rendered in the past.

4) I believe that you are correct that you should not step up as Scoutmaster. However, you and the DE should make it very clear to the person who does become SM that you will be a strong supporter as ASM and will make that SM successful

5) Most important, don't let yourself get sucked in to trying to keep alive a unit which really does not have the support to be alive. As a non-parent, very young leader without a job, I would suggest it is risky to do that.

Hello Jet,

I'm sure you know this, but there is no limit in the number of Troop Instructors that a Troop can have. So anyone needing a POR can meet that requirement by being a Troop Instructor.

Hello Hal,

The requirement for Eagle is explicitly different. For Eagle, the Scout must hold a position of responsibility. Not to say "trust me" but I have heard this explicitly laid out at National meetings. However, you know it is so because that is what the requirements say.

Hello urloony,

I can only think of one possibility and even then, your Scout is probably out of luck. If your Scout had previously completed six months of Position of responsibility as a Star Scout, left that job and then was appointed APL then he did meet the requirements and was improperly denied. More frequently than we would like, SMs and BORs interpret advancement to mean that the Scout needs to hold their position of responsibility in the time immediately before the Board of Review. This is incorrect. He can hold it at any time while a Star Scout and it does not need to be consecutive nor all in the same job.

But even then, he would need to appeal to the local council and probably to the National Council and likely that appeal would unsuccessful.

The reason is this. The requirements have not changed significantly while the boy was a Scout. He is trying to become an Eagle Scout which is something very, very special. The assumption is that he can read and that he cares. I do know of a number of cases where the SM or other Troop adults told the Scout something incorrect which was directly contradicted by the written requirements. The assumption is normally made that the Eagle candidate cares, can read and has to take the primary responsibility for his advancement. If there is some contradiction between what his Troop adults tell him and what the written requirements say, it is assumed that he will clarify it.

But as others have said, even if he doesn't make Eagle, he has been a Scout for a long time and deserves plenty of credit for that. He should have a nice ceremony celebrating his time in the Troop and his turning 18. If appropriate, he can be presented his badge as an ASM at that time.

Hello packsaddle,

I understand (if not agree with) all that you have said. I do understand the contradiction between "We demand volunteers" and "Parents only are acceptable volunteers." However, there may be history or just pigheadedness that gives rise to that attitude. It might be interesting to learn if there are any non-parents now connected with the unit.

As Lisabob mentioned, having the former CM sign up as a Unit Commissioner is a great idea. I know virtually no council or district that does not need more Commissioners and former Cub Scouting leaders are in particular high demand and short supply. Working on a training team is another place to serve.

Scouting is a family. While an individual unit can decline the services of a person, if the person is part of the Scouting family, we should try to find a place for them. We don't have enough volunteers to go around.

Hello Momof7Scouts,

From what you have just written about the other Scouts in your Troop, I would suggest that you or the SM meet with the District Commissioner, District Training Chairman, District Advancement Chairman or all of the above. Outline the problem and the backlog of Scouts who are non-advancing because of this problem. Suggest and ask that the District put together an ad-hoc SWAT team to come in and help this unit, do some quick training, mentor the Troop leaders as they meet with each of these Life Scouts and quickly get them back on the Eagle trail. (Perhaps your Unit Commissioner could do this but from what you have reported, I am assuming that you do not have an effective Unit Commissioner.) It should take only a couple of meetings but could make a big difference. Mention about the report of the rejection of non-construction projects. It sounds as if in this District, there are a couple of little kingdoms that need to be rooted out.

I would also note the Units of Supplemental Training on Scoutmaster's Conference and Board of Review on the BSA national web site.

http://scouting.org/BoyScouts/TrainingModules.aspx

Hello You Can Make A Difference,

Through experience, I have learned that a question like yours is a flashing red light and warning siren. Because if the SM and Committee agreed on the situation, you wouldn't need to ask the question. That suggests to me that:

1) The SM (perhaps that is you) wants to dismiss the boy

2) The Committee does not yet want to dismiss the boy

I don't believe that you'll find written anywhere in Boy Scout literature a concise "Procedure for expelling a Scout from yout Troop." It is painful and different in each case.

I can only suggest that the matter is best handled when there is some degree of consensus between the committee and the SM. And I do not want to suggest that the SM threaten, but the SM ultimately is responsible for what happens in meetings and outings. One approach is to have the SM say to the Committee "I am not comfortable participating in Scout activities with this boy present. I fear that if he continues to be a Troop member, I cannot function as Scoutmaster." Does the SM feel this strongly? Is the Committee willing to lose the SM in order to keep the boy? I have seem matters get this bad, particularly when the problem boy's parents are on the committee or are prominent in the community. The Committee doesn't want to take them on.

Hello annom 200:

The registration rules are exceedingly clear. Age 10, no exceptions. The rules were specifically put in place a few years ago to address pushy parents and boys who were too immature for some aspects of Scouting. There were also homeschooled boys where were "certified" as finishing 5th grade as early as age 7. The unit does not have the prerogative to waive these guidelines nor does the council. This is not saying that some units would not just do it, but they are going against specific National guidelines and doing it specifically in opposition to the reason that National put the guidelines in place.

Congratulations to you and your son, MomofScouts,

I can understand his frustration. I can only suggest that he be reminded of the statement from JFK "Life is unfair."

The odds are that your husband should move to another Troop. At a certain point, one's effort is better spend places where the resistance is less severe.

Hello Momof7Scouts:

I apologize if my earlier post was not clear enough. I'll try again.

The problem, plain and simple, is

a) with your unit's "Eagle Adviser"

b) with your District which is allowing the "Eagle Adviser" to be a complete gatekeeper and roadblock

but mainly with the Eagle Adviser. You can spend all the additional time that you choose looking at Eagle requirements, etc. but I believe that will not gain much for you. You know what the requirements are, what your son has done, etc.

I believe that the problem will continue until you, your son, your unit or someone comes up with a way to get over, under, around or through the "Eagle Adviser." This may be difficult or unpleasant but from what you have written, I don't see any other way.

And if the District is supporting the Eagle Adviser, time to get over, under, around or through the District.

Hello momof7scouts:

From what I am reading, this has moved beyond being an Eagle Project approval and has become an ego challenge. Not being on-site, it is difficult to give guidance on how things are best handled. If it is possible to find a fair witness/negotiator like a good Commissioner to work your way through the morass, it might help.

I will comment that the Eagle process is now specifically designed to prohibit one person with a hair up their tail from blocking the Scout from being considered for Eagle Scout. I still think allowing this unit "Eagle Adviser" to block the project from consideration is inappropriate. However, I am wondering if this Eagle Adviser has something against your son, you, your family, whatever that is causing him to be so obstinant.

I still continue to think that the friendly conversation with the SE which I earlier recommended will bear fruit. Some of the other suggestions that the listmembers have made are possibly fruitful. But you clearly have proved who killed Cock Robin, your case is well made. Now the question is how to get beyond the roadblock.

Maybe I am dating myself horribly. But I remember that once upon a time, there was a suggestion that each Den should have a conduct candle. The candle is lit and burns for each meeting. However, when any Cub Scout displays poor conduct, the candle is blown out for that entire meeting. With much notice, fanfare and explanation.

The the entire conduct candle is burned, then the den gets a party.

Maybe today's Cub Scouts are much too sophisticated for a conduct candle. But in those days, actions like this would cause the conduct candle to be blown out and every Den member would know whose actions had delayed their party.

Hello Beavah,

I understand your comments about not getting the Scout Executive involved. My reason for suggesting the SE was that when I have seen situations like this, and I have, not uncommonly, the troll involved is one of the good old boys and if you go to the volunteer structure, you risk it being that you are complaining to one of this guy's buddies and making things worse.

This guy may be one of those people who believes that every Eagle should be 17 years old and if somebody younger comes along, he'll keep throwing up roadblocks until the kid gets older.

As I believe I suggested in my earlier post, there is no one right answer as the best approach can depend upon the exact personalities and formal and informal leadership structure of your district and council. So don't be surprised if you get many different suggestions on this forum some of which seem almost contradictory. All of us are right and none of us are completely right. You and your son need to scope out what will work best in your specific local situation. It may take a little doing.

It is certainly possible that there will be someone in the volunteer leadership structure of your council who can help you. I know that in my council, advancement is one of my areas of responsibility and if I learned of something like this, I'd see what I could do to set things right.

I know of a council that had to dismiss a leader from serving on Eagle Boards, etc. because he was this way. It ended up costing the council a massive sum of money as this man was potentially a multi-million dollar giver and quit Scouting as a result of being dismissed. I don't believe that anyone ever told the council "thank you."

Occasionally, one runs across someone who believes that they are Horatius at the Bridge protecting the purity of the Eagle project and the Eagle process. It can be really unfortunate.

There may be no easy answer but what I would be tempted to do is the following:

Prepare a presentation package with the work that your son has done, the proposals that he has written, problems he has faced, etc. Ask for a meeting with your council's Scout Executive to discuss your son getting turned off to Scouting as a result of the Eagle process. (Make sure that your son concurs with your doing this.) Present the information. Indicate that you totally concur with your son meeting the requirements and that you want him to meet them and he wants to meet them. However, make your case that the process has stopped being fun and stopped building citizenship, character and fitness and instead has become painful and discouraging for your son. Indicate that the delays in the process may have made the project undoable.

Ask what your son can do to cut through the red tape and get onto doing the project. Point out the difference between your first son several years ago and your son now.

You may not have any luck but there is a good chance that your SE doesn't realize the way that this Eagle adviser is serving as a roadblock. Your SE may be able to help you.

You'll have a great time in our council

1) It's not a long walk. Maybe 3 miles. Plus time stopping at the various sights.

2) I would expect Plymouth and Salem to be open. Both represent at least a half day and driving distance for each is 30-60 minutes from Sayre. Note that Salem is north of Boston and Plymouth is south.

3) Nothing special is listed on the council calendar. There may be some special things happening in town that you can find out about as time gets closer

4) Make reservations now and get in deposit. The cabins do fill up.

Boston in February can get "brisk" bordering on "chilly." Be sure that your Scouts are ready to handle weather which could, under unusual but not unheard of conditions, be in the 0 degrees to 10 degree range. Temperatures in the 20 degree range would be common. In Boston, public transportation is pretty good. That might be simpler, cheaper and more fun than trying to find a parking place. However, public transporation does not serve Sayre.

You'll have fun. We look forward to seeing you.

Gunny, I appreciate your comment.

I was using "congruent" in more the mathematical sense of "congruent triangles" which are triangles that have the same three angles and same three side lengths, i.e. they are identical in every way. When I looked up "congruent" on dictionary.com, the definition was "coinciding exactly when superimposed" -- again a mathematical definition.

So my point was that I have known and seen parents who expect their children's values to be identical to theirs in every way even to punishing the child if they express a disagreement. And I do find that creepy.

I concur with you completely about Axe Murderers, Lizzie Borden notwithstanding

I fully realize that my post here is calling fire down upon my own position.

I find hyperparenting creepy. I find parents who treat their children a little like first base creepy (don't get more than 10 feet away, you might get picked off.) I find parents who consider their children to be possessions, or robots or their entertainment creepy. I find parents who expect their children's values to be congruent to theirs creepy. I find parents who do their children's homework or do their children's Scouting requirements to be creepy.

Children are an entrusted blessing. If one is so blessed with one or more children, one is, in my opinion, obligated to do everything possible to empower that child to become a strong, powerful, independent person and adult. That does not mean that the child must never hurt themself or be hurt; that's part of growing up. It doesn't mean that the child must not come in contact with people who are weird, that too is part of growing up (ask me about some of the nuns who were my grade school teachers.) It doesn't mean that if the child fails in some ways that the parent is at fault.

It does mean that the parent has a strong obligation to act like an adult, be an adult and learn how to help the child grow. And, in my opinion, it means that the parent has an obligation to appreciate that the child cannot be protected from every bad thing but rather that testing, struggle and failure is part of growth and the child must be given the chance to have the situations which will cause that growth.

Another option to consider at age 15 is that he can become a Venturer if there is a Venturing Crew nearby and serve as a Den Chief while a Venturer. Venturing is the program for youth age 14-20.

Let me make sure I understand.

Ordinarily, we need to use whips and chairs to get kids to wear the full Scout uniform.

And yet there is a question about whether a young man age 18 or 19 can proudly wear his full Scout uniform at his own or someone else's Eagle Court of Honor Setting a powerful example example for everybody in sight. Communicating to younger Scouts that the uniform is a great thing.

Am I in La la land? Why in this circumstance would we EVER not want a Scout or former Scout to set a proud example and honor another Eagle Scout? The uniform is one of the methods of Scouting and its purpose is to enhance the aims -- citizenship, character and fitness. For heaven's sake, let's use the method and not let it use us.

Stosh,

YOU have the convenience of picking the mom that you want to model. The Scout with bullying parents who has been elected Patrol Leader does not. He has learned leadership styles from the parents and other leaders with which he is associated.

No one is arguing that bullying is acceptable. I am suggesting that for untrained youth being put into a leadership position, bullying will be one of the leadership styles that result. We need to teach the Scouts how to lead without being bullies. But I would suggest that is an outcome which comes at the end of the process and the Scouting trail, not a precondition particularly if there is no training.

With respect, it's me and jblake, I believe that "bullying" or at least the perception is an essentially unavoidable consequence of youth leadership, particularly for untrained youth.

The reason is that youth leadership in Scouting is one of the first real opportunities that the Scout has to lead and has to learn how to follow other youth. However, his model is likely his parents, teachers, older siblings, and leadership seen on TV. That is what he knows. And that style of leadership, while perhaps acceptable from parent to child can be very problematical with youth peers.

Here's an example:

Child: Why do I have to do this?

Parent: Because I'm the mommy and I'm bigger than you are.

Now let's translate that to Scouting:

Scout: Why do I have to do this?

Patrol Leader: Because I'm the Patrol Leader and I'm bigger than you are.

We can argue about whether the parent in the example above is using good parenting techniques. I believe that we have all heard examples like this and have seen children being so led.

The latter case would be considered by many to be bullying. Yet it uses the exact same words as the first example. Arguably, Yet I have to ask where this Scout would learn any peer management and leadership techniques other than through Scouting.

If we are truly going to give youth the opportunity to be leaders, in some cases, they will move into what objectively could be called bullying. That is part of the teaching experience. They need to learn other methods and other styles. Those are what we are trying to teach.

Hello BrianScout,

I am truly sorry for the very bad training experience you had. You deserve so much better than that.

I can give one tiny bit of experience that may explain part of what you are seeing. Your top Council Leadership is probably aware, at least in the back of their consciousness, of the training situation in your district. Sometimes, our choice is what to do when the current leadership is not doing the job but there is no clearcut choice to replace them. The situation can become particularly difficult if the current leadership has been in place a long time, likes their position, has many friends and is part of the "good old boy" network.

What often happens is that the council leadership knows that things are less than great but may be out ot touch with just how bad. You need to fix that

I would suggest that your COR ask for a meeting with the Scout Executive (top pro in the council) and describe your experience giving as many names, dates, places, facts, etc. as possible. Indicate that you don't want just to **** but that you were taking training for a reason and in your opinion, that level of increased knowledge did not happen.

I would also note that in many Districts, there is a distinction between the Training Committee and a Training Team. The former is the group that exists to organize training, strategize, maintain records, etc. The latter is the somewhat amorphous group of persons who conduct various trainings. I might suggest that you and your other Troop leaders become members of the Training Team. You can agree to be called on to lead parts or all of various trainings but it's on an ad hoc basis. You can contribute directly to better quality training.

I can see one possibility for this "requirement." It could be that the District Advancement Committee is giving project approvals which are not good permanently but only for 6 months, telling the Scout that a priori. So they would say they are not adding a requirement because the requirements to say that the project must be approved by the district and their approval is only good for a certain period of time.

Having said this, I don't think that National would look kindly upon this approach if, and when, a Scout appeals his project being rejected because its approval "expired."

Hello ScoutMomSD,

I have been following this thread with interest. But this one statement of yours tweaked me a bit:

"I know that most kids are molested by folks they know including parents and relatives and friends. I know there are many married pedofiles."

With respect, your second statement is, as I understand matters, quite incorrect. There are NOT many married pedophiles. Because THERE ARE NOT MANY PEDOPHILES OF ANY SORT, married, single, gay, straight, male, female, young old, etc. Those that there are can do incredible damage and our caution is well advised but, in my opinion, our situation is much like the security people at the airport. They don't find guns, they don't find bombs, they don't find terrorists because there aren't many guns, bombs and terrorists. But when those guns, bombs or terrorists do show up, they can do incredible damage.

Consider me creepy if you wish, I am sure that other people do. I've been a Scout leader for 45 years having been a Scout for 8. I have one daughter who was briefly an Explorer and did one summer at Scout camp. She's engaged to an Eagle Scout. I do Scouting because:

a) I like the people

b) I like what Scouts do

c) I find it a way that I can serve

d) I can help the next generation

e) I can assist in the same way the others assisted me

I think that wanting to go on a campout with your son is very appropriate. I might anticipate at least 3 different reactions on the part of the Troop leaders:

a) Well, we don't want parents to go on campouts. We prefer that only Troop adults go. (Possible trouble here, look carefully)

b) Sure, happy to have you go. (Good answer, take them up on it.)

c) Actually, we prefer that only trained leaders go on campouts. If you would like to take leader training, we'll be happy to sign you up for it at the earliest opportunity and then you can go as a trained leader who knows what to look for. (You may have found a winner here. Treasure this Troop. Take the training if this isn't an excuse to make you wait a year.)

The point is, are you going as someone to "check out" the Troop leadership and keep looking over your son's shoulder or are you going as an adult to help all of the Scouts, one of which is your son. The latter is what Scout leaders do.

Another thought, just to ask the question:

"I know - you have to give them roots AND wings. I have a good friend who was really "close" to her daughter when she was 17 and all of the sudden she figured out her daughter was pregnant. Thats where the tie the camel comes in. "

What does this have to do with anything? Does she believe or do you believe that if she had been with her daughter at all times, this would not have happened? Do you truly believe that is a realistic possibility and do you truly believe that the mother is in some way responsible or is a "bad parent" if the daughter acts irresponsibly or has bad luck and becomes pregnant? I know this must be extraordinarily difficult and sad for the family. However, I have heard the saying in Scouting circles "character is what you do when no one is watching." If you believe that, you totally circumvent character building by not letting your son learn to think and act independently.

To me, one of the advantages of Scouting is that youth do see a broad diversity of adults, styles, beliefs, and interpretations of the Scout Oath and Law. They receive lots of good data as they form their own character and decide what kind of people and what kind of leaders they will be. Maybe some of those leaders are a little creepy. But don't you think that the kids know that? So they learn creepy people exist, here is what they are like and here is how I deal with them.

My daughter (mentioned above) and I have had our challenges, some of those at 100 decibles. However, I was incredibly honored and proud when I was in a serious accident 2 weeks ago, she dropped what she was doing, took the red eye across country, and spent a week with me in the hospital making sure that my recovery was proceeding well.

If you try to protect your kids from everything and make them robots, the best you'll get is good robots and you may get a serious rebellion. If you try to empower them to become independent citizens and ultimately independent adults, they'll be the next generation. And that's why I'm in Scouting.

Hello Lisabob,

A lot of great advice here. I would just also support that Scouting is supposed to be fun for kids and adults. When it's not, it's time to do something else.

I would also just suggest a couple of perhaps less obvious things to consider to do that might be fun and rewarding for awhile.

If you are an OA member, become more active working with the OA. Perhaps become the adult adviser to one of the lodge or chapter officers. OA kids are great fun.

Same sort of thing with the Venturing Officer's Association.

You also can become one of the adult staff members for your local council's NYLT course.

You can organize a Den Chief Training or Den Chief recognition weekend for your District/Council.

Few districts have enough unit Commissioners or Roundtable Commissioners. You can serve there. Also, few districts have enough trainers to work with individual units. There's another place to serve.

Actually, I'm a bit envious that you have units in your community. My community has only one Pack and no Troops. We are trying to start others.