moosetracker

ctbailey - You sound just like my son who I am putting in charge of this.. I told him to come to the forum, to talk to you.. I know you two will hit if off with the intense excitement for this that is going to match his.. The spot we selected Pemi fish & game, would hold 100, but not 200.. If you guys really want to ramp it up, then fine I don't see why it would not hurt to call council and see what they have, although I know that last time I tried for HV one year in advance, nothing was available on any weekend for one and ahalf months.. We ended up at Bell, which wasn't too bad for us.. To plan something as big as getting the camp to supply food, my son can check with our Park Ranger/chef out there, then decide if we provide, or they organize as patrols.. Some of this I have to tread carefully, I have a tendancy to hand of a project to someone, then make some decisions I think are minor, to have my organizor upset with me not coming to them.. So I have to learn to make suggestions, and then leave it to my organizers to figure out what & how to get it done.. So some of the "you" is not "me" but the person I put in charge, as in contacting the other district trainers.. Good idea, I can nag son a little (not alot) about following that recommendation.. But, I do think my son will need to organize and surround himself with a group of people who have good knowledge in organizing large gatherings to pull this off. He is gung-ho, but young, and should work with an expirenced staff who is not (mom & dad) especially if we go large and as you state "epic".. Although Mom can stomp on him a bit, being the Council Training Chair. It will be great exposure for him, but I do have some of OGE worries.. (where did his prediction of disaster go??) If we can pull it off it would be awesome, but if we do not organize it well, and by well I would like to see some expirenced scouters on staff at the early planning stages.. It could be a disaster.. Just remember.. Jamboree, WB, and Air Show.. We are spreading our expirienced scouters throughout our council very thin currently and on through the Fall season, as there are currently running planning committees for all of them..

ctBaily, Not yet, our CTC is out of town until around June 22, We were suppose to have a council Committee meeting May 30th, but it was put off as she was out of town, we will be holding it June 22 on her return.. One of the things on the agenda is how to get everyone trained before recharter, and my suggestion for an alternative for our experienced scouters, since we are not offering the test-out for them.. Until this meeting I really can't get ahold of her.. Yeah, if we go with multi groups breaking up our large groups into smaller groups, I will be looking for the other districts to ask if any of their trainers can help us out.. My problem I scheduled between woodbadge weekends. Alot of our District training Chairs, and a good number who staff their district trainings are staffing WB including me.. If it was ME, I don't know how gung-ho I would be to give up my weekend for resting. But, I know there are many who staff IOLS that will be free.. My biggest worry is the Plants & Animals. I have a list of 12 people, but I am hard pressed to get one of them on staff, they are all people who work weekends as tree cutters, or firemen or forestry etc.. We might have "Train, Train, Train" but with a Fall line-up of WoodBadge, a Jamboree (every 4 years), and another Air Show we are hosting I think all our trainers took the Fall season off, even though it is the season before our council is pushing manditory training at recharter time. I was not going to do BS specifics, but have had a few crys of "Please" and will most likely be adding it..

Well I am planning, but I am also hoping that our Council Training Chair (CTC) also comes up with other solutions to lesson the burdon.. 1) This mandated training is now not mandated by National but by council, so if no one else can swing a training this fall, can we drop our mandate? 2) Put together a council organized one and pull together all the districts who can't swing one on their own to unit into leading one.. 3) have her tell me my max.. But we had a district run one for 50 this Spring.. Or maybe she can pull something out of her hat I have not thought of.. The district that had 50 participants thought it was a fabulous turn out and training.. So I plan to get suggestions from them also.. In my district I have a count of 63 who will need it before December registration.. I figure there will be those who just will not take the training and push the council to see if they really will drop the unit.. But I already am getting emails from other districts who see my training scheduled and are asking why my registration page is not up.. Answer, because I can't put a price tag on this training until I figure out a general idea on how we will run it.. (And since my son is the organizer, any suggestions made has to come under his approval) I guess I am planning for the worst, and hoping that sometning happens that it will not come to that.. If you had to put a minimum number on the course.. Would you do : 1) First come, first serve.. 2) SM first (they are the direct contact), ASM second, those currently in neither postion 3rd. 3) People in your own district first.. Everyone else second Problem with 2 & 3 is that there are procrastinators, and I can't see makeing everyone wait to see if they got into the course or not.. Although 2 is more fair to who really needs the course by recharter time, 3 is probably selfish it is not fair to punish the unit leaders because their districts don't run a Fall course.. (And it seems to be that too, since I was told last Fall I was the only one running IOLS, someone did run OWLs though)

My son MIB may chime in here I gave him this training to be the organizer for. It falls in the empty weekend between Woodbadge weekend #1 & #2 and I am on WB staff for the first time.. I scheduled an IOLS & OWLS for Fall (before being asked to be on WB staff).. I just am figuring out I am the ONLY district offering the course this Fall, yet it is needed by many for Journey to Excellence, and though National moved their required training date for direct Leaders off a year, our council (under advice of National) has not.. And our council does not allow the test out, although I am promoting an alternative to the normal IOLS, which may make this a little lighter, but not much as our Council has many large things going on it the fall, so few will be able to run the alternative this Fall.. So, everyone in the council is looking for a course and "I'm the only one" (and no I am not a tigger).. So, family & I have been brainstorming.. We have a premeeting one evening befor the IOLS weekend to do the skills for cooking & Backpacking and have the patrols sit down to organize equipment & meal planning and purchase of their food.. With this possible number we need them to still organize their own food, no way we will have the ice chests or space in our vehical to organize food for 50 to 100 people.. Possible solutions are: 1) to ask the other districts to hold the 3 hour preplanning meeting, not do food cooking, but just talk about meal planning, food prep & storage and the backpacking, so there are satalite places times people can go to and the pre-planning meeting is not a 3 hour drive for a 3 hour meeting in which they need to get there by 6pm (taking off time from work).. 2) A CD with the skills on it (sort of like on-line training).. With a quiz to make sure they did watch it, and have them organize food & equipment by email.. Then during the weekend, having a patrol cooking competition where we go around and they explain what they did and maybe something where all the patrols can try what everyone else made.. So they are getting ideas from each other. Also during the IOLS weekend, we were looking at having multiple trainers for each skill and breaking them into smaller groups. And having some of us going around all the different groups makeing sure they know how much time they have left so they finish up at similar time, and helping where needed.. We drove up to look at the site I choose for it (never was there) and the place seems big enough to accomidate.. Any other suggestion on how we could possibly open this training up to all who need it this Fall, not put a max number of participants on it.. But make sure the training is up to the standards it should be at, and not have our total newbies get lost in the crowds but get the personalize individual attention that they need..

Our Eagle board seems to run just like yours with one exception.. They expect the plans to have all listed in a best guess, borrowed equipment is what you are planning to ask for to make sure you are thinking things through but it is not a guarentee you get exactly what is on your list (ie you can list to borrow rakes, shovels etc with no count.. You may ask and people bring 3 rakes and no shovels.. Now this may become something the Eagle canadate will right up about what did not go as planned, and how they worked around it.) Hours are usually off.. Some have too few to show true leadership, others have too large a project and they guess 100 hours when the board can see 500+ hours.. To the underachievers (though who have two small a project to be consider worthy), the board will work with them & add on to the project.. To the overacheivers, they will make sure they realize the time committment, and most still are gung-ho to do it.. But, if not then it may be something that needs to go back to the benefactors of the project to see if the scout can do only 1/3.. (Hard to do if the item is a deck, but easier to do if it is building 100 picnic tables, to reduce the count to 25 for your project and the other 75 will need to come from other contribution or volunteers.) An example is this past BOR a scout can with a project to build a small horseshoe pit.. He was not denied, but before he left his project grew to the horseshoe pit, and organizing the first tornament (and some sort of fundraiser for the thing too).. Scouts are usually not turned away by the board, but their project may be modified.. Board is not looking for perfection, but that the scout has thought ahead and is not going to just "wing-it".. You might already do this, but we have our Life Scouts come to a committee meeting and do the presentation in front of the committee, we aren't horrible, but I am told if they make it through our process, then they will get through the Districts' project review just fine..

Exactly Chug - My son & his fianc are 19 and 20 currently, got engaged at 18 and 19.. I would hope they knew they were heterosexual before making this commitment. You know we keep saying it is because of of puritanical roots, but really the puritans evolved into our Protestants and others derived from the puritans are very liberal groups, but then others like the Mormons stayed very strict. The Mormons (LDS - Church of Later Day Saints) are the stricter branch. But have solid roots and influence in the BSA. Some of my views this are: 1) Venturing has a little more leeway, as the LDS church does not use this youth program.. For one it is co-ed, so against their beliefs also I believe by 18-21 their members are no longer in youth programs, but busy with whatever ministries they have been assigned to. Since the Mormons do not use this program, they are not trying to influence and define it. 2) Venturing does not have that cumulative rank award that Eagle does.. They have awards, but at least in our district no one is interested in advancement. Even so, none of their awards has a board that is at district level, so outside of their unit in order to obtain.. Therefore they never get to the point they may be questioned about it. (Not that we grill for sexual orientation at a board, but some youth are open about things they should know better than to bring up at this time & place) I remember one thread where a scout was going for Eagle and had admitted to being gay. The consensus was that the scout was considered asexual so could not make that determination yet, so it would not affect his being able to earn the award.. Now if he stated he was an atheist, that would keep him from getting the award.. Before 18 you are simply confused with your sexual orientation but cannot be confused about your religious beliefs. 3) Adult leaders are considered the role models.. The older scouts are not seen as role models (although in truth they may be more the role models for the younger scouts). Therefore a homosexual Adult leader is not the type of role model to have as it will cause our youth to be confused as what is proper and moral conduct. Therefore a blind eye can be given to our youth who stray. --- Don't shoot me, I am just providing the reasoning of others on this issue, as I have seen it from other debates about this issue. These are not all my own personal beliefs, just my beliefs on why our rules are so screwy and full of nonsense and contradictions.

Chug, Someone has got it ground out of the meaning of "A scout is clean".. For some reason it is determined that a homosexual is "unclean"... edited sorry got that one wrong.. it's the "morally straight".. Ok all of you from the UK.. don't all start laughing at once! Remember our puritan roots it is rapped up in someones religious beliefs, and in this belief we are not practicing an interfaith, but are being force fed a specific narrow minded religious belief.. We do not deal with gay youth scouts either, they are not mentioned as banned from the organization, because it is not believed they can make that determination about their sexual orientation.. They are all seen as asexual.. Ok, don't laugh so hard that you pee your pants.. And you can pick yourselfs up from the floor.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Rah! Rah! Scoutfish! I agree.. The comfort of changing clothes, is probably the real reason.. But everyone knows it is the boys with cooties, because girls are much cleaner and would allow a cootie to touch them.. And Vol_scouter, you are right because statistically it is more likely that without facts most likely they are heterosexual that is how you treat it.. And right now the current policies work due to the fact we will not tolerate anyone stating they are anything but heterosexual, so if we are blind to homosexuality being in our units, and no one is allowed to be openly gay, we need no policy to address it..

dlearyous - In a truely boy run group you let the boys run it, most have their SPL & ASPL run it.. Same as the meetings that don't look well run or organized if truely being boy run.. Who cares, if it is not up to the specs of how an adult would organize it.. After the COH, your SM could have sometime with the boys who ran it to do a review of what went right, and what could be improved.. If your SPL & ASPL have enough on their plates, and you have a large enough unit, then I don't see anything wrong with assigning a different youth to organize & plan the COH, still I would have the SPL & ASPL be the MC following the order on the program set up by the other youth.. If an adult plans it then it definately would be more organized.. But that isn't the point, the point is to teach the youth to do for themselves. This is a time that you can showcase what boy scouts is all about to the parents that are not Adult Leaders..

Lisabob - as stated in a 6 person tent, neither would I be, but in a 6 person tent I would not care if a few females were sprinkled in either.. Are you? How comfortable are you putting a male & female in the same 2 man tent? You know boys have cooties.. Or is it girls that have the cooties? Let's put it another way.. Currently BSA does interfaith worship.. We all worship together Catholic, Protestent, Jewish, Muslim etc. But what if we had everyone group be faith and do their own special ceremonies.. Normally you would have a group of Catholic and a group of Protestant (and I can see a group of I believe but have no defined faith).. So one day a scout decides to convert to muslim.. Well you don't know what to do with them, because they are the only one of their faith, so you have them stay with the original group they were in.. Then a Jewish boy transfers in.. Well he would be a group by himself, so lets just roll him into the "undefined faith" group.. Now you may see it differently, but to me if we seperate by sexual orientation we do it for all, and if we don't then we don't.. I don't really care how we do it, but if we seperate then everyone should be seperated out..

vol_scouter - the application would then only apply to those who are openly homosexual.. No, drilling & asking personal questions are needed.. Until then you assume them to be male or female and straight and treat them as such.. As we do now.. Only currently we do not allow them to be openly gay, so we just treat them only as male or female.. edited to add: maybe straight is not the right term, in all cases.. Is the term used asexual to define when they have yet to define themselves?? which is probably what is more correct for the younger scouts.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

I agree the 99% of the homosexual is not some out of control freak, similar to 99% of the heterosexuals.. But, still with this fact we do not put male & female in the same tent together and just say "I trust you, to behave".. My only point is to treat everyone equally and fairly.. The way I see it is if we separate the male & female due to sexual orientation, then similar fair consideration and treatment should be made for the openly gay.. When we put male & female in the same tent and just say "I trust you, to behave".. Then equal and fair treatment should be made for the openly homosexual person.. In no way is my opinon based on the feeling that homosexuals are more untrustworthy.. It is more a belief they should be treated equally, when we do not separate due to sexual orientation, then we do not.. When we do, we do.. If we want to go the way of the huge tents and place all members together regardless of sex or sexual orientation.. Then marvalous, I will support that. But until then, I do not agree to some odd double standard, that we should not trust the sexual urges of the male/female, but homosexuals are not a problem.. Either drop the policy across the board, or live with it and treat everyone equally.. Sorry I feel I must treat Homosexuals equally while you feel they should get special considerations and be treated differently.

MIB - I think our COR knew she could just fire the CC, but her position was to make sure the committee would support the decision, and she was not going to cause a civil war within the unit as people split on one side of the issue or the other.. It was an easy decision of support for her and the SM, but my guess had it not been, she had every intention to hold us hostage in that room until we were all in agreement (with her)... If our COR was not active, this may have been a time the committee would have had to have taken a vote and then gone to the COR, but because we had an active COR, she was on top of the need to remove while all the committee was still watching the fireworks between the SM and CC and expecting the CC to calm down and be rational.. At least the committee hadn't yet come to the point where we figured out we needed to unite against the CC and remove him before the unit was chewed up and spit out by the CC...(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Scoutfish to redifine your convience store.. equating the shift manager to the CC/committee, and the Store Manager to the COR The shift manager at a convience store would need added to his job description the ability to find people to hire on his shift so he collects the resumes, does the interviewing, and chooses an employee to take to the store manager for him to sign the paperwork. Now unless the Store manager looks at the name, and says "That's my idot cousin Tony, no way is he working here.." He will most likely accept the shift managers recomendations and sign the paperwork.. Now if the new employee doesn't show up on time for work, and mouths off at the customers and is not working out, the shift manager should point out what he is doing wrong, give the employee 3 notifications (probably keeping the Store Manager informed of the problems).. And after 3 notifications go to the store manager and tell him the employee is not working out and needs to be fired.. And the store manager who has not been personally involved in the problems because he is working a different shift, will most likely approve the dismissal of the employee unless the store manager does not have 3 good notifications, or it is the Store Manager's idiot cousin and firing him would cause family problems.. The CC is normally the one the parents would go to with compliants (Maybe SM or CM for problems with ASM's or DL's) and the CC would be the one to go and talk with the adult leader to get their side of the story, and try to help them improve.. The committee normally are parents with kids in the program, and they too will have run ins with problem leaders or hear about them from fellow parents in the program.. Normally the COR will have no children in the program and are not around the day to day operations, or had the responsibility to listen to the complaints or try to guide the Adult leaders.. So who has the knowledge of when enough is enough and it is time to remove a disruptive force? The CC/SM/CM and the committee are the ones.. The COR should make sure the adult leader was given fair guidence to improve, that the problems are severe and honest enough to warrent the removal and if all protocal was followed then should accept the recommendation of the committee.. (Unless it is his wife being removed).. The COR basically leaves the running of the troop including putting people in positions, moving them around to different positions and removing people from positions, to the people who are in the trenchs and are working with these people day to day.. They may take more interest in the two main positions of CC & SM/CM because those are the two people they will most likely be working closely with, (consider those the convience store's shift managers).. But the other Adult Leaders for the most part they are fine to have the CC & CM/SM work with, guide, and make the determination if they are not cut out for the job.. The only other time they should be more involved in the hiring & firing is when the unit is in trouble of collapsing due to not enough adult leadership, or youth or both to have it run smoothly. If not then the unit is being micro-managed by one person, and it is not how BSA recommends the organization to be.. COR trumps all but IH, IH trumps all.. But they are not the ones in the day to day trenches, so if they are running their units correctly they should be taking the recommendations of the people who are.. I think we are all running around the mulberry bush and saying things in slightly different ways, but are really in basic agreement with slight variations and that is ok.. all units have slight variations..

Eagle92 - I am not arguing that fact.. my very first post in this thread stated A little more difficult is the committee can vote them out.. But, you would still need your COR to back your decision, because your COR can reinstate them with the stroke of a pen.. This means from the get-go, I knew the COR could trump a CC vote.. But if you have good reason and the person your want to get rid of is not him or his wife or whatever, A COR is going to accept the will of the majority.. Or, suffer a very angry, frustrated Unit until they do fold due to inner turmoil.. If you have at all read the thread about the Tour Permit, where the guy wants to go to SeaBase, bumped heads with the CC then the COR and both will not budge, so now he wants to either have the committee vote the CC out, or move the unit to a different CO.. I have constantly been telling him, that the COR will not accept the committee vote, because the CC is supporting the decision of the CC.. and whoever walks out, goes without the units numbers or assets because they all belong to the CO.. But, the COR is not the only one doing the hireing, it is the committee chairs job to find the people to seat in the positions needed to have a smooth running troop, and it is their job to guide them to improving the way they do the job, and the committee has the right to oversee the program and make sure it is running correctly, per the BSA policy and the CO's policy and in some cases with some policies they vote in due to answering issues they have had in the past, be it theft of funds, setting the amount to charge over & above rechartering fees or whatever.. No, the committee can not do whatever they want by vote, and trump the COR who is against a decision.. But, neither can the CM or SM run whatever program they want, be it raising the bar too high, or too low, or boring the scouts to death if the CO - COR - or Committee calls him on it.. Still it is considered his program.. And still the CC can look for Adult leadership, and bring it to the committee for a vote of approval, and also can fire (or replace as Beavah points out) leaders who are not working out unless there is some reason the COR/IH will not support their decision.. We all do our jobs, and if something comes up that someone feels is not the right move, we are called on it, we correct it, and we move on.

So Scoutfish - What you are saying is that the COR runs the whole program, and the Cub Master, Scout Master, Committee Chair and all committee positions just do what they are told.. The CM & SM can make not program decisions with out their approval, and the CC & Committee can make no decisions about how to organize activities, or insure that the CM & SM are running the program to an expected level of standards and are not continuing to make promises & plans for events then break the promise..(but then if they are not running a decent program it is not their fault because the COR is not pulling the correct puppet strings.) Also in the world of buisness if you are not the CO or President of the company, you might as well hang it up, because your job at the company is worthless.. The VP of finance can not hire or fire their employees or do anything without direct orders for the CO or President of the company, Human Resource can not hire or fire, The Head of the IT department doesn't really run any thing, and on and on.. Because the CO or President of company could come and disagree with their actions.. So because the Head Honchos have veto power over all, no one else has any ability to make any decisions about their departments at all.. Hmmm... Interesting concept.. It's Good to be King!!!

Hi MarkF, Sadly you are another one of the growing messed up units, that is not functioning right.. Others are more positive then I am with the "Go, Rah.. Rah..".. I am not so good, I am more someone who throws a few sticks in, the fire, and if they don't catch fire I walk away to the campfire down the road that is burning brightly.. So first thing I would say to you is to take a stand and let the CC know that you are the Webelos leader and that is it.. The other levels must find a leader from the parents, or not exist.. In order to recharter with a tiger group you must have a tiger DL, some for each level.. On the charter the DL must be listed.. Insist that these name not be in paper only, but either they do their job, or those dens fall off the roster.. Now from the sounds of it, that may mean if they don't organize themselves the Pack doesn't have enough kids to recharter, but that is not your problem.. It is the problem for the CC & the CM to solve.. The Webelos need you to put the outing in scouting, and to work so you slowly move them out of cub scouts & into boy scouts.. If not these are the years that they will get board and leave the pack.. You need to run a Webelos program and you can not shackled with a day care center in tow.. Sounds like your CC really isn't worthy of the job either, when you lost your tiger den leader he should have been at your very next meeting encouraging and insisting that one of you parents step up and take the position so that your den could continue.. He should have done the same thing when the Webelos leader left.. He is not doing his job..

Beavah can correct me if I am wrong here, but it seems to me if the trip is cancelled due to their actions that then you and the others would have a leg to stand on in court to ask they refund you the money.. And they should as 2 others should not be allowed to go for free on your dime.. If they find two replacements, or at least a 2nd adult, and the trip is canceled due to the other scouts backing out, then the cancellation was not their fault, but yours and the others who followed you in support, therefore I think they may win the battle that it is you guys who would need to pay the bill.. Now from what I took from your statement of .. "Our CC has said he will make no further ruling on this; he is deferring to the COR. Our CC's is going on the trip with us (awkward now) and he is fighting against us, " That you now have your 2nd adult the CC was going as your replacement, but they have yet to find a replacement for your son.. If that is the case, the trip would not be canceled due to the CC & COR ruling, as they got 2 adults and have replaced you.. If the others now cancel out, I believe it would be their actions causing the cancelation, and since they were rallying to your cause to rebel, you would not get out all lily white.. My guess would be if taken to court, it would be you and the others who would then loose the battle as to who needs to pay for the cancellation. You guys are so heated on both sides, I can see this going to court.. But I agree with NealOnWheels - At what expense to the troop.. You are about to blow the whole unit apart, due to the both of you being very stubborn, and not able to back down but needing to be victorious regardless of who gets hurt in the process. And believe me it will be the kids, the scouts that will be the ones hurt..

SP - I don't know did any of them name the exact date and time to the exact minute that the comet will stick or global warming or the ice age will hit?? If so I would say they were missing a few bats in their belfry also..

Nope.. Don't see it.. Problem is in this country we do segregate on sex, due to sexual orientation.. Not on the color of your skin.. So to either we seperate on sex, due to sexual orientation across the board, or not at all.. Putting a guy in his own tent really doesn't stick out as much as you would think.. Many troops give the SPL & ASPL's seprate tents, or the PL seprate tents as a priviledge of their position. If there is a low attendance and plenty of tents, other kids ask if they can have their own tent.. Now, if we stop seperating Male from Female, then you don't seperate out the gays either..

Nice story Pchadbo.. Either the writer or the guy who found the money had a sense of humor while writing it too.. You always hope you will act the right way when faced with the situation. I hope I would. In that particular situation I know I would. Why? Because he was at an ATM with a camera on him and had probably used his card to get into the ATM cubical.. No way would I want Police to track me down & get my picture in the paper as someone who attempted to get away with 17,000.. Much better to have a nice, humorous write-up.. And hope for a reward for being a good-Dobie.. Reminds me of when I went to a bank to have some money added to my savings book.. Well the teller added in my bank account.. I was walking out and just glanced at the amount.. Imagine the shock on a poor college students face to find several million dollars dropped into their account.. I did go back and have it straightened out, but not without some thought of flight to some tropical island with the loot!!

Husband & I were looking into adoption once. I remember one question that got us angry.. I don't remember the exact wording, but to the point it asked if either of us wer gay.. We responded, "NO, nor are we pedophiles, which would be a more appropriate question to ask us.." I was thinking the same thing about kids being more tolerant. It is a good thing, and something that my cycle into changes when this generation comes into power. I believe my son is more tolerent of it, and is fine in social situations. I believe I am too.. Still I have never seen him invite a openly gay guy over for a sleepover just the two of them, as he will with other scouts when they need to get up early to get to some scout outting.. Then again, there is no one openly gay in our troop, so I wouldn't know.. Maybe he has.. I believe I would be fine using a tent situation where 8 people bunk together as a full patrol, and you are not segregating male from female, then I would not see a reason to segregate the openly gay people either.. But we have tents of two, and currently do segregate male from female, and Adults from youth. With those rules and with two men tents, I don't see why you would not seperate openly gay also. Just seems like a logical flow of how we operate..

Oh, you can always vote with your feet.. You can go to another unit.. You and half the unit can go to another unit.. Or start up a new unit.. Can you take your unit to another CO?.. No, the CO owns the unit, they own the funds in the account, they own the equipment, they own the unit number, they own it all.. Unless they are wanting you to find another unit, in which case they may (don't have to) sign over the equipment & account funds to the new CO (not to the unit, as it is never owned by the unit).. All that your unit owns stays with them.. They can use it to rebuild the vacancy you and your followers leave when you walk out. Even if you have enough walking out that the unit folds, they can keep the funds and sell the equipment on Ebay if they wish.

First off the committee can only vote to replace the CC with the support of the COR.. The COR would have to sign your Application as the new Unit's CC.. If the COR is supporting the CC, I doubt you will get their approval for the change of position.. Interestingly enough thier is another thread on that very topic.. That has some saying that the committee can not vote to replace any adult leader position, and Beavah & I stating that they can, but had better have COR approval before doing so because they can overturn their vote. If you want to read that thread here is the link. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=319428 Frankly I don't see your COR supporting your committee decision to replace the CC based on this ruling when they are supporting the CC with this ruling. I think everyone concerned is way too overheated over this issue for any of you to be thinking rationally.. Council will support the Tour Plan as you know, but they will not tell your CO or COR what policies they can and can not do in their unit, so long as the BSA policys for saftey are met.. They will not run the risk of loosing a unit by fighting your battle for you.. By BSA policy you could have flown seprately.. But BSA policy is not that you MUST fly seprately.. Therefore the CO putting in a ruling that you must fly as a group is not breaking a BSA policy.. RichardB. in National would have clarified the BSA policy, but he will not tell your COR that the policy is that you MUST fly seprately.. He will not force your COR to allow you to attend rather then your CC.. If you have two deep leadership, then National will be fine with whatever plans your unit makes.. They are too high up to fight the individual battles of the little guy, and really can't, your unit is owned by your CO, not the BSA.. They will only clarify the policies for you, in order to help & guide you..

Yeah.. As ScoutNut states, your Charter Organization OWNS your unit.. With that the COR & IH (institutional Head) have the right to make up stricter policies on a case by case basis, without having it in by-laws, or pre-exisiting policies.. They must follow the BSA policy, but have every right to make things stricter.. The only person to override the COR is the IH.. But, the buck stops there.. Unfortunately, you may have burnt your bridges, you dug your heels in and became stubborn and unbendable.. They rose to the fight and became stubborn and unbendable also.. A committee vote can override a Scout Master or Crew advisor, they cannot over ride a COR or IH.. The COR & IH can override the committee vote.. The IH can override the COR, but my guess is they will support their COR.. That is what they should do, or they will need to start looking for a new COR, if the COR does not feel they will have their support. When you kept comming back with responses by the CC through email, I worried that you might be getting them pumped up for a battle they would not back down from.. The support of the COR on their side, put a nail in your coffin.. The fact that the COR is now pumped up and ready for a battle they will not back down from, pretty much has your coffin in the ground.. You might have won the battle, had you refrained from discussion with the CC after their initial announcement. Gone off gotten the information from council and National, and come back with the research in hand.. At that point it was the CC who was mis-guided on their information, and not set up to do battle with you. But now you have both CC & COR ready to do battle with you.. Your research though should give you a good foundation to get your money reimbursed though.. You have alot of proof that you were willing to go through with the trip, and it was not you personally changing your mind nor BSA's policies that stopped you from going, but the rules of the CC & COR.. Therefore you should not loose money to that decision.. Now, if they cannot get someone to replace you, and the whole trip is threatened to be cancelled. You may have another shot at it.. Because again it is a lot of people who stand to loose money for a trip they all could attend, if not for the rules being put in place by the CC & COR.. If they have a glimmer that they might have everyone demanding the CO or the unit reimburse them because it is them that is standing in the way of you going.. On a rule they just made up, that is not documented in past policy.. The cost of not giving in to the demand they reconsider their stance, may have them rethink about if this is the hill that they want to die on.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)