MattR

@@Adamcp, I can attest to everything everyone here is saying. It's not just the scouts that get stuck in a rut. A few years ago my plc was based on a 6 month rotation, I decided who was in what patrol, scouts essentially played nose-goes to figure out who the next PL was, and you know, they just didn't really act like patrols. That's the troop I got and I figured it was the way was. But I did realize I wanted change. I had and still have no grand plan but I see the goal. I make small changes. The first was to get the best scouts as PL. Rather than me deciding who would be PL I did something similar to an OA election. The only scouts that could be PL were those nominated by the troop with at least half the votes. It was then up to the scout on whether he wanted to run. All this did was convince the scouts that this is an important job. We haven't had to do that since because now everyone realizes the PL is important. Soon after that, at the next cycle of new webelos I told the PLC to figure out the new patrols as I knew I sure can't do it. I did ask them to look out for the young scouts. The patrols broke out by personality. That was great for the well behaved personalities but there was some rough parts with the, shall we say, biker gang/mean girls patrol (loud scouts with drama included). Summer camp was a bitch with this patrol, I had a meeting with all the scouts and the parents and we talked about the Oath and Law, some scouts were crying, parents were incensed that I wasn't going to break up the patrol and spread them out among the "good" patrols, one parent took his kid away in a huff (my son would never take a dump in the woods!). Anyway, we went and collected garbage for a few hours one day just to develop some teamwork, and you know, it all worked out. They are a tight group now. I believed in these kids and a lot of parents didn't. The last thing any of my patrols want now is to split up their patrols.

Rule #1 about getting the patrol method working: it takes time and patience. You gotta believe in these scouts and give them the support they need, whatever that might look like. One PL begged for help with some scouts that just wouldn't help clean. I put together a teamwork training session that lasted an hour. This may sound insane, but at the end a couple of the scouts in that patrol said "huh, I guess we do have to help out. It makes things better." Hello! You're absolutely right that they have no experience and haven't seen it before. They have to learn, slowly. You can't just dump everything on them at once.

The next issue I have is getting them to want to do something without the adults around. You'd think they'd want to but they don't trust themselves. I trust them, but they've never done it. A hundred yards is fine, they've done that, five miles is not. So, I created a challenge for them. The next campout involves a hike and each patrol will go on the route they want, and there will be no adults around. They would not have chosen this on their own. I have tried but no luck. It's time to take the binky away. One PL is really hesitant about this. He's worried about a couple of immature scouts in his patrol. Another scout said he has to review his map skills. The really cool thing is the scouts are taking this seriously.

Rule #2, they need some prodding and a whole lot of support. I regularly call scouts and ask what they need help with. I know, the SPL should be doing this but we just aren't there yet.

Rule #3, trust is huge. There needs to be mutual respect and it takes time to develop. The adults and scouts need to trust each other, and it has to be earned. If the scouts trust you then they will listen to you. The same goes the other way.

You can help them make decisions by limiting their number of choices. As they grow they'll need less of this.

Rule #4, I don't think there's a goal line. It's not like one day I'll say we made it, we're boy led, this is it and there's nothing more to do. We talk about growth for boys but I'm starting to think troops grow as well. Troops that have been doing this for a long time are way ahead of my troop. I'm hoping that once my PLs get good at leadership one of them will make a fine SPL. But we are miles ahead of where we were back when it was "I don't want to be PL, it's your turn."

Look at the accident rate for water skiing, snow boarding, or snow skiing and my guess is neck injuries are much higher for those sports.

I found the following info in two minutes on google, so take it with a grain of salt. For water skiing the injury rate is roughly 1 per 100,000 people, half of which are head and neck injuries. 20-30 people die each year snow skiing due to head injuries. One study showed 1.3 injuries per 1000 runs at terrain parks, half of which were head and neck injuries.

I'm not ignoring the risks, but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

And, slip and slide meets baby in bath water joke is coming ..... now.

And hints on subtle ways of getting rid of parents without being rude?

One approach I've used is to ask the scouts, with the offending parent standing right there, whether they need help. If they say no, case closed, because confidence from the scouts will shut down a parent faster than you can. If they say yes then repeat by asking the older scouts nearby if they need help showing how to help the younger scouts. They will never say no. After they say they don't need help you can then talk to the parent and say something along the lines of: See, they don't need any help. Of course, this is where subtle British humor comes to play where you simultaneously insult someone while being very polite and cheerful at the same time. Please post the video as this should be fun. There's an idea! Next time this happens pull out your cell phone and start recording. When the parent asks what you're doing  just say you want to post this on scouter.com of how best to not help.

I've only had to go this far a couple of times. Usually a direct, polite approach along the lines of I know you can do this better than the scouts, but they need to learn this on their own, is more than enough.

I guess I must be going to jail, or been to jail, or at least all my scouts are going there because I do break rules:

I let scouts play with squirt guns and water balloons.

I let them climb on rocks more than waist high.

I let them run in camp.

They dance for lost items (old thread, look it up).

We play campfire games like cross sticks, going to spring camporee, and big blue moon, which are all really a form of hazing.

I test skills before I'll do a rank SMC.

I requiring a certain amount of outdoor challenges on the scout's calendar.

However, the biggest rule I break is that I expect every scout to help out at a level that reflects his ability and rank, no matter how long it takes to get to the next rank. Scout spirit can't be signed off before the SMC and it reflects the entire time a scout worked on the rank, not just 6 months. In other words, I'll tell a scout I won't sign his eagle app if he doesn't change his ways. Then we work on a way to get him there. All said and done I've had one scout over the years that refused to believe me and I did not sign his app. He was 16 so he had plenty of time to make it right. As far as I know the Council signed him off. All the other scouts grew.

The thing about all these rules is they were put in assuming the worst in the people that break them. Just like any tool, some common sense is required. I like the UK Scouting approach of fewer rules and more common sense. Maybe Americans don't have as much common sense as the British, but I'd like to believe we can handle this. Scouts climbing on rocks can be dangerous, but I explicitly tell the scouts at every campout that if I catch any of them screwing around on the rocks then it ends for everyone. I've never had a problem. Cross sticks can be abused just as much as everyone's fear over smoke shifters. I can also see how a SM can abuse sign off on scout spirit. The SM that adds rules at the very end, without enough time to make it work, is clearly abusing it. By breaking the exact same rule I've had a lot of luck with encouraging scouts to try new things. I've made mistakes that I've had to fix and I've had scouts thank me for giving them a push.

I'm not claiming I have it all figured out or that this is easy, I'm just saying I'm trying to do my best. The whole point of scouts is teaching youth how to make good choices when dealing with problems, and if we're limited in what problems we can give a scout to solve then we're limiting their growth.

I read the thread about the 17 year old life scout that is having troubles with his SM over scout spirit and while I think in this case the SM is handling things the wrong way, I know exactly what the SM was thinking. He's breaking rules to improve his troop and I do that as well.

Succinctly put, most scouts are unwilling to push themselves out of their comfort zone. When that push comes from from other scouts the program works great. Unfortunately, sometimes there are not enough other scouts to give that push and an adult needs to create it. That's when I break rules stipulated by the BSA.

Believe it or not, teenagers can be lazy and that has ramifications in a program that encourages scouts to make their own decisions. If they don't know a skill and only have to pass it once to get a check mark then they are unlikely to want to practice that skill. So those are off the calendar, the one that we are not supposed to interfere with. This wouldn't be an issue in a troop that already has first aid woven into the culture of the troop, but that's not very many troops.

Then there's the scout spirit rule. The typical scout takes 4 to 5 years to go from First Class to Eagle. So in those 48 to 60 months he only has to show up, help out, and essentially live the Oath and Law for a year and 4 months. For me, any scout that's wearing a First Class or above patch is expected to help out. The Scout Oath and Law are not just about getting requirements signed off.

So I break rules. These are mainly the rules that relate to getting scouts to do what they know they should do but are just too lazy to do. I will reject the scout's calendar if there are no outdoor skills being practiced. I encourage them to make it fun, but they have to do it. Every scout will have to show that he knows the scout skills of all the ranks up through the one he is seeking before I will do a SMC with him. If he doesn't know them then he gets to spend as much time as needed with an ASM until he does know them. If a scout is wearing a Star or Life patch then he's expected to help out. Period. And that includes going on some campouts. If he doesn't like the campouts or is bored then I encourage him to fix that problem. I understand disappearing for a year, sports and band and all that, but being active 48 out of 60 months is a lot different than 16 out of 60.

I'm sure these rules came from a small number of people that abused a situation and so now we all are restricted. Kind of like the GTSS and squirt guns. A bit of common sense is all that's needed but rather than encourage that the boy scouts create rules. I do my best to ensure a scout has a path towards success before I break a rule. If a scout, that's been gone for two years comes up to me with barely enough time to do an Eagle project and wants to get Eagle, I'll work with him. I won't prevent a scout getting eagle at a young age but that's a small number of scouts. I give the PLC as much say as I can in picking the calendar. But in the end, there is a minimum standard and as the saying goes, you can lead a scout to water but you can't make him drink.

With all that said I don't have to break the rules that often and I really don't enjoy it. The scouts know they have to learn the skills so the whole retesting thing is not an issue. The scouts know they need to have skills and challenges built into the events and enjoy the challenge of making them fun. I've also found out that if I screw around and have fun with the scouts 10 times as much as I have to tell them they're doing something wrong, then they respect my view. I've had a lot of scouts thank me for kicking them in the butt.

I'd rather not break rules. My ideal troop is where all I have to do is answer questions, ask a few, and enjoy the outdoors. I'm getting closer but I know I'll never get there. I'm sure others don't like what I do and I'm fine with that. I have talked to a lot of other SMs in my district and I'm not that far off from what they do.

Congratulations and well done.

I have an eagle scout/asm that at first was really difficult to work with. Now that he understands the adult view of boy led he really likes it and helps every way he can.

As for the OP, one way to sneak in some scout led might be to have a patrol earn the National Honor Patrol award. There are a number of activities a patrol has to organize and do on its own.

Or maybe, Stosh, they're just very organized and motivated until they get their eagle. I have a 14 year old eagle scout, one of maybe 4 in the history of the troop, that really was good until he got eagle. It's not that he's bored because there's nothing to do, it's that nobody is holding anything over him to motivate him. Nobody is saying I bet you can't do this. Getting Eagle was the challenge, and there was nothing he did wrong. There was no way I could have stopped him and yet I knew this would happen. This is why I think FCFY is a total crock. I have a group of 15-17 year old troop guides that are learning so much more than this scout, only because they are slower at getting to the leadership positions. Their laziness is serving them well.

When they're young they're motivated by bling. As they get older they get motivated by deeper things. Some day this scout will mature and figure it all out.

Yah, hmmmm....

I recognize that accent.

Welcome back.

Oy.

Any other suggestions?

Your wife seems to have nailed this on the head. Before anyone worries about fixing problems related to boy led, the issue of adult led needs to be solved, and I don't mean the adults should lead the troop. I mean the adults need their own leadership.

The asm that yelled at the nsp patrol threatening to wake them up at 4am ... priceless.

Adults are angry at each other.

Everyone wants to go through the SM, but he's not around?

I can certainly believe the adults are frustrated. After 7 pages I'm not sure what all the issues are but the adults sound like a bad patrol with 30 extra years of birthday candles. They really don't have a clear view of what needs to be done and they all have their own ideas. Not much communication is going on. I hate to say this but assigning one adult per patrol won't fix any of this.

So, I agree with the new parent that said meet another nite and get a consistent message for the boys. What that message is is another story. Some things that it depends on are how strong is the SPL? Is he good enough to help the PLs do their job? If he said he'd give the nsp another week to get a menu together but doesn't plan on following up on that then he's just kicking the can down the road. If he plans to call the troop guides up to find out what went wrong then he's great.

I'm not sure the TG being ignored by his patrol will be solved by giving him authority to sign off on advancement. Sure, you want a confident TG, but it seems to me the thing that's missing is understanding what teamwork is about. It could also be that one troop guide is not enough for the scouts in that NSP. Maybe he needs help. I use two per patrol. There's lots of showing the scouts what to do and two can do a much better job. There's also more opportunity for the TGs to screw around with the scouts. Respect is not just about the power of signing off requirements, it's also about creating a relationship. Playing with the younger scouts will do a lot to let them know that there's a time to have fun and a time to be serious and that the TG can be trusted to ensure the new scouts are getting what they want. The keyword here is trust. The young scouts trust the TG. The TG trusts the adults will back him and train him. The adults trust the TG to do his job.

Scouting, by deliberate choice, has always selected affirmative guidance over "thou shalt not."

 

But since you asked: “Never do for a Scout what he can do for himself.†

So why isn't thou shall not do for a scout what he can do for himself in the training? It's concise.

Thanks for joining us tatung.

There is a troop like this in my town. Most scouts don't know what patrol they're in. Someone tried to change it and it just made for a bloody mess. Said person eventually left. In all honesty, you should probably stop being an asm. You'll just get mad. If the cc is a "puppet" then you're already angry. That will rub off on your son.

You mentioned that the SPL often introduces the SM as a guest speaker. Do the scouts honestly like that? I can talk for maybe a minute. If it's a really great story I can have 3 or 4.

I'm curious as to how patrols work in this troop. Do they ever do anything on their own? Pick their own menus? Pick their own campsites? Have their own meetings? Pick their own patrols? Pick their own skits for campfires?

One person you didn't mention is your son. What does he think about the troop? If he's having fun and has friends it might be hard to get him to leave. I'm not sure how old he is but if he's starting to think about leadership maybe he would like more say in what's going on?

Another issue is whether or not there is a troop nearby that is more boy led but still has a reasonable program.

Thanks for joining us.

To answer your first question, 1 has to join another patrol, 2 I leave to their choice, 3 or more they should cook as a patrol.

The question you didn't ask is why are only 5 of 30 scouts active? This is a symptom of bigger problems. It could be growing pains. What worked with 5 scouts won't work with 30. The 5 might feel like things have changed from what they like. 5 scouts is barely a patrol whereas 30 is maybe 4 patrols. 4 patrols with only 10 scouts showing up on a good day is not conducive to patrol spirit.

I'm reading tea leaves here but this is what I'd try. The older scouts drive the enthusiasm. Talk to them. You can't win them all over but half would be really great. You need their help. Ask them for their opinions. Give them some freedom to come up with ideas to crank up the enthusiasm. Once you have half the older scouts enthusiastic the younger scouts will start following.

If the older scouts are dead weight then get them out of the way and work with the younger scouts.

New term, adult creep.

One thing I don't like about all the training is that they never really describe what should not be done. They say what should be done, and that's important, but the counter example would make it so much clearer. Yes, the scouts should come up with ideas and the adults should support them, but there are plenty of things the adults should not do in this process. By not making this explicit the boundary between the Scout's decisions and adult's get's fuzzy and the adults slowly squeaze in and the scouts slowly squeaze out. That's adult creep. In this case it's more like national creep but sentinel's reference is more committee creep.

Until the adult crosses the line of telling the scouts they're wrong, maybe you just let him make a fool of himself. Done the right way, talking to older scouts about taboo subjects can be good. Most scouts don't have an opinion but those that do rarely get a chance to talk to an adult about them. They can learn about being civil under thorny conditions. I try to keep my biases out, play a bit of devil's advocate to keep them engaged, and ask a lot of questions. But, you had a thumper. So next time you're around the scouts when it's quiet, why not ask them what they thought?

I've done that before. I was scout age and not so far from your location (Scotland, but it's all relative). Rather than a motor on the plane there was a motor on the ground, on the edge of a cliff. Quite a memory as we flew over the abyss.

Because of language, etc.

I looked at the website and between all the awards, all the youth groups showing it, scoutreach, and BSA's desire to control the conversation, I'd think this would be a slam dunk. I also noticed that a PG version was made for someone that requested a toned down version.

The trailer looks like it would be great advertisement for scouts. I wonder why it's not for sale at the scout stuff website.

Well played, @@Stosh, you SOB

Something didn't make sense but I sure couldn't connect the dots.

>>coming out of hibernation...

There's a limit to how much time moderators have to 'police' the 'behavior' of forums...remember...they also don't get paid and they have 'lives' outside of this as well as careers. In the ideal world, a forum like scouter.com (if it doesn't work for scouters it probably can't work anywhere) should be self-moderating with the 'moderators' providing occasional nudges now and then. I read the series in this case and while I also disagree with his decision, I understand cyclops's feelings. Sorry to see him go.

back to hibernation<<<

Well I guess another form of scout crack is to get @@packsaddle to come out of hibernation.

The problem with all forums is they are public and disagreeing with someone in public gets people defensive. Disagreeing in private is much less confrontational. That's how we treat scouts. Pack, I meant to imply that everyone can be a part of this and that it is an easier decision for the moderators. If someone disagrees with what you tell them in private, so what. If they agree they'll probably make it right.

So, packsaddle, take a bite. Heeereee little burrow, come on buddy. You can do it....

I suppose a scout should be treated the same way about his uniform as about his actions. I want scouts to act and look like scouts. I also realize they'll slip and make mistakes. My scouts are all a work in progress so for that reason I don't worry about uniforms being perfect. On the other hand, a scout that refuses to wear a uniform likely does not act much like a scout (unless he can't afford it, but that's a problem I'll solve). For this reason I will not just let them do as they want regarding their uniform just as I won't let them act in an unscout like manner. The challenge is the right amount of consistent, gentle pressure.

Our gentle pressure consists of: We require green pants but not official scout pants. I will pull aside a scout that consistently does not wear a uniform and ask him why. I will comment to scouts if their patches are completely out of date - just to let him know I see it. We do require a scout to wear his uniform at a SMC for rank, or bor. When we take a picture of the troop we ask all scouts that are not wearing a full uniform to not stand in front. During an indoor flag ceremony we ask all scouts to remove their jackets as well as non-scout hats, and they can put them back on afterward. We strongly suggest scouts wear their scout shirts when we travel or do service projects so people know scouts is still around. We also tell everyone if they can't afford a uniform we'll find them one. In other words, the scouts know they should wear a uniform, they can get a uniform, and we understand when they slip. Most importantly, when a scout that has had problems with his uniform suddenly shows up with everything right, I'll complement him on how sharp he looks, just as I try to complement every scout that does a better job helping out.

I don't think removing I&P will help, it will just overflow elsewhere. Isn't that the reason why I&P was formed? Trying to remove dissent or arguments will gut this forum.

There's a good way to argue and a bad way to argue. The good way is when everyone is trying to come to an agreement, even if it is to disagree. Lurking scouts should see that. I'm all for it. Bad arguments are when it becomes a zero sum game. If there were a way for the moderators to help with that I'd say absolutely. I'm just not sure what that might be.

What seems to work really well is when someone realizes they crossed a line and apologize. Personal messages could also help. Even if it's a moderator pm-ing someone and saying they won't remove a comment but man, it sure was rude, an apology might be a good idea.

But at the end of the day, I have enough conflict in the rest of my life. I don't need want to see bad arguments here. What I really want is is that scout-crack feeling when some boy walks up and says thank you. I'm here to learn better ways to get that. Yeah, I'm greedy. I suppose I could help people here but there really aren't that many people here, especially those that would like some help.

Why drink beer and get in a fight? Why talk about scouts and get angry?

How many patrols are we talking about?  I'm of the opinion that most patrols, no matter how they are formed, never really get a chance to gel.

I agree. We re did patrols about a year ago. I told the scouts to figure it out and do right by the younger scouts. They all ran around and picked friends and somehow the globs grew into patrol sized globs. They grouped more by personality than friends. You'd think that would be good, but in fact, no. The short version is summer camp was rough. there was a bit of moving around. But by now patrols do not want to change anything. I did spend a lot of time talking to patrols to get them to work through their people issues. The one thing that helped me is nobody could blame me for how the patrols were put together because I had nothing to do with it. Now the problem is going to be how to work a bunch of new scouts in with minimal disturbance. A lot of these guys do not want to split up. There are a couple of scouts I wish would split up but I'm keeping out of it.

As for using a random number generator to make patrols, that sounds like a bad way to break up friendships. Depending on how many patrols there are, for those scouts that have one or two really good friends, it's likely they won't be in the same patrol.

My wife and both kids were exchange students. We've hosted several. Exchange students can be highly motivated, wonderful additions to your troop. Not all are but these kids are already in a completely different environment where trying something new and getting over making a fool of yourself is a day to day occurance. We had a camporee where one scout, the PL, was just outstanding in getting his patrol motivated. Between that and his accent I asked him where he was from and what program he was in. He was Brazilian. If you think scouts is all about learning on your own from your mistakes without mom and dad around to bail you out, then stick your 16 year old kid on a plane and don't talk to him for a month. That's what we were told. Once your son finds his host parents they will call you. Tell them you love them but you don't expect to hear from them for a month. 100 yards for a weekend? How about 10k miles for ten months? If the kid is here for the school year then he's over the worst of it. Again, not all kids are great but a lot are. If the kid wants to be here as opposed to the parent that wants him to be here then he'll be fine.

They will have US insurance. The host parents should be fine but if it makes you more comfortable then go ahead and Skype with the parents. Also, ask to talk to the local coordinator of the program. Better yet, talk to the boy and have him arrange for you to talk to these people.

 If scout is absolutely not interested in that career at all, why did he select it out of all the possibilities for a career in that field to spend his time researching?

Because it's eagle required?

I'd rather see more requirements involved with doing than discussing. To encourage a scout to make a career out of cooking I think it would be better to teach him how to fry an egg without burning it than talk about a career in cooking. Success is a better motivator.

But it's more than that. I really like to cook but it would never interest me as a career. I cook every day and all I get paid is good memories with friends and family. How about learning something because it's fun? So I don't see anything wrong with a scout saying no, that's not for me.