MattR

12 minutes ago, LeCastor said:

Maybe he/she could write monthly articles in Boys' Life lifting up the Patol Leaders and encouraging Scouts to make the most of their Patrol fun and adventure.  Wait, this sounds like a familiar concept...

I just submitted a request to Boys Life to start that up again. I told them I knew some people that could write the columns. We'll see!

Just curious, how old is she?

14 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

They did fill a pizza delivery guy’s car with jet fuel.  It ran a few hundred yards.  Best time I had there was when the old timers sat around and discussed worst case scenarios at the refinery, many that would result in large craters and mass carnage.  

If it was a diesel it would have run. Jet fuel is pretty close to diesel. But just in case you think it's a good idea, it isn't.

8 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

Newer cars will also have an Oil life tracker that the owner should reset after changing (or having their oil changed.) Now, how trustworthy that is depends on how much you trust vehicular computers... 

I think they are. They can count engine revolutions, number of cold starts, etc. I also have a car with synthetic oil and I change the oil every 10k miles.

Okay, they have a strong brand, with some adults. What about brand recognition with kids? That's the issue.

I found, and bought, a 1941 edition of the Handbook for Patrol Leaders for $5. It's in great shape. What blew me away was that it's almost 600 pages long. I started reading it and it's good. Bill's writing style is infectious. Someone should republish it.

I know, it's not I&P, but that's where I am today.

@naranza65, is there a reason why your son is struggling in school? I struggled in middle school. To say the least, it sucked. Is the problem your child is having because he is signed up for five activities and just doesn't have the time or is it because he's dyslexic, or ADD, or has Asperger's, or has other kids teasing him, or any of a bunch of reasons why a kid might hate school. i.e., does he need more time or does he need something else. If all he needs is time then sure, some time off from scouts might be good. If time alone isn't going to help then consider figuring out what the other issue(s) is/are.

Just my two cents.

9 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

 

I think you're mostly right.  But how is "the jump to hyperspace" really any different from "warp speed"?  Isn't faster-than-light travel "science fiction" regardless of what you call it?  (I can't think of any other examples at the moment.)

 

No, warp speed is just a plot device to solve the light-speed speed limit. It's been around so long that it no longer is sci-fi. When I compare real sci-fi about ships that are alive and that have biological type defenses that can remotely start messing with your thoughts and drive you crazy, I see that Star Wars is just a Western in space. Good guys, bad guys, fighting, and cute women wearing cinnamon rolls over their ears.

Everyone's leaning the same way. Finally, we agree! Let's celebrate!

Besides, what's the worst that can happen (to the young PL scenario, not us celebrating)? Nobody will get hurt. Some scouts might get upset. That's a useful problem that can help them all learn. Don't take that opportunity away from them. It just means the adults should pay attention. What's the best that can happen? Stupid question, I know.

I think the real question is what do the adults need to do to make her successful?

8 hours ago, Cambridgeskip said:

I guess this is the broader question.

If we put aside the specific situation, at what point should an adult intervene and say this really isn't a good idea? I'm sure you'd agree on a point of safety where the decision was going to get someone hurt or worse. But are there other times?

 

Certainly safety is the big issue.

Another closely related situation is when scouts don't follow the scout law. Stosh mentioned this.

As DavidCO mentions, there are scouts with very different personalities that most scouts don't have experience working with. A patrol gets frustrated with a scout that's ADD and doesn't want to help wash dishes. They might need some help navigating that.

The other issue for me has always been lack of motivation. If a patrol wants to do something, anything, that's within the confines of scout appropriate, I'd have a hard time stepping in (outside of safety). What I see as a problem is when the entire patrol is just failing. Nobody is having fun. There's no teamwork. There's constant bickering. Scouts don't show up. Then it's time to step in.

Adult intervention starts with talking to them so they recognize the problem. Qwazse mentions review. See if that's enough for them to find a solution. If that doesn't work after enough time then it involves giving them options to solve it. Finally, if they just aren't getting anywhere, then it can be time to step in and solve it. To be honest, I've very rarely done that. Maybe 3 times in 12 years. It's almost always enough to just give them some options they can choose from. What I have noticed is that once you get back to basics, talk about the scout law and everyone's on the same page with that they will take the high road and figure out their problems.

6 pages of jedi talk? you're all bored, have some chocolate ice cream and boost your dopamine.

It's a movie. Disney paid some $4B for the franchise and they're trying to make some new money from an old plot. That's as deep as the plot gets. Based on the last film, I'd say the new one is mostly the same.

I think it's all about trust. Do you trust not only the PL but the rest of the patrol? If all the scouts in the patrol have good teamwork skills and all but the PL have gone on these campouts without adults before (I'm so jealous) then that's a big part of trust. The other part is making sure the whole patrol is prepared. What might go wrong and how will they handle it?

Sit down and talk to them about it and trust your judgement. Be honest and tell them what your concern is. Then ask them what they think. If they're humble in their response they'll be humble when dealing with any problems they find. If they blow you off and tell you're just an old fool, maybe they aren't ready. Ask them how far away they'd like you to be. Five hours? One hour? Five minutes? Right there to keep Tommy from sticking his hand in the fire?

One thing that has always worked for me is to let them know you trust them, even though other adults might not. That will buy you some respect and they'd like to prove you right as well.

Seen in a silo:

I wouldn't dump on FB. One thing it has that scouter.com will never have is a way to connect to new people. Start reading posts of some group on FB and suddenly your friends will see it as well. That could get more people involved.

I was thinking it might be a better way to get parents of cub scout aged kids to see what it's about. Just get all the parents in a pack to like a FB group for the pack and then the friends of those parents would start seeing posts of cubs having fun. It could be worth a lot more than handing out fliers at the start of the school year.

@WisconsinMomma, the fact that nobody can answer your question satisfactorily - where you can say "aha! That'll work!" - and are just giving you little things to bite off some edges, is likely proof that this whole concept of boy led is going to die. I mean, if nobody can come up with a simple explanation of why boy led should be supported then it just doesn't exist.  Wouldn't it be nice to just say "here, read this book" and it would be a compelling description. It could be a story or an explanation or whatever might connect. But such a book doesn't exist. Nor does some training material nor a blurb someplace on the BSA's website.

I'm not trying to be cynical. I'm just pointing out the reality of the problem. We go on and on and on about girls but girls aren't the issue. And it's not moms either. It's that nobody has a simple, easy to understand description of why we're doing what we do. A sports coach has it easy compared to us. People watch sports. They understand competition, teamwork, practice, sportsmanship and pushing yourself. It doesn't take much to convince a parent that sport is good for a kid. There's a much bigger leap between the Oath and Eagle. Honestly, how many adults get the connection between learning how to start a fire and the scout oath? There must be a connection because we say there is but the parents don't actually know what it is. All they know is get the kid to eagle and voila, he will be courteous and kind and brave and all those things we talk about.

In defense of the BSA, they've bitten off a big problem. Where else in society do adults, and not kids, learn to do courteous and kind? No, not laws. There are no laws that say we should be courteous or kind.  And don't say we should learn it young, from our parents. That's just a chicken and egg issue. And you can't just say it comes from common sense. The Declaration of Independence says all men are created equal, i.e., that all men have value. That idea is right out of Genesis. Before that all men didn't have value. Only those in power had value. So courteous and kind are not inherently obvious in our gene pool. 3500 years ago it was said that all men have value and yet a few months ago there were people marching for a whiter America because, well, that just makes me ill thinking about it. That's not to say those that talked about human value some 100 generations ago were wrong, only that it's a struggle to internalize courteous and kind. It's not enough to just say be courteous and kind. One has to live it. Words don't work here. Courteous and kind are ideas that sit in another part of the brain.This is about being true, and not just truth. Facts can be understood via discussion.  Being true can only be understood by living with the Oath and Law. Facts can be easily assimilated. Being true takes time and struggle to assimilate.

So what does this have to do with the price of fish in China? Well, scouts is about the Oath and Law and these are not just facts, they are about being true. The only way to learn this truth is to struggle with it. Hence, a boy led program. Scouts in a patrol struggle with the Oath and Law. Learning to start a fire is about struggle. The new scout wants to learn it and the old scout needs to understand that and make it happen. The adults don't need to teach the young scout how to start a fire, they need to do something much more difficult. They need to see the benefit of scouts struggling and then make that happen.

Which brings us back to the original question. Unfortunately I have no answer for you.

1 hour ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Of course, missing a goal is a huge lesson, but I'm curious how often this happens, and what you think about letting kids fail.  Also, what do you think about the process of Scouts going after the Eagle rank?  Many here say that it's not about advancement -- does that mean you let the scouts navigate everything on their own?  Eagle Scout takes a lot of paperwork and some planning for how a Scout will get through all the ranks and all the merit badges.  Do only Scouts with superior organizational skills achieve it? 

What do I think of the process? Hmmm, that's an open question. First of all, let's not forget methods vs aims or goals. So I'm fine with scouts that that don't want to complete Eagle. Anyway, the process is long and confusing. There are thousands of lines of requirements and they have little to do with the aims. Eagle is not proof that the aims of scouting have been met. This is not understood and is the source of so much grief.

This is not to say that I have no interest in scouts earning Eagle. I'm interested in helping scouts that are developing character in the process of earning Eagle. So, if a scout is torn between helping the PLC and completing Life in time to get Eagle before his 18th birthday then I will help him out. If I can use that moment to teach a scout about time management (and he's listening) then I'll ask questions and try to get his mind back on the critical path. If, on the other hand, I have a scout that never shows up, is selfish, and just never helps out anywhere ask me to sign off something that he did months ago, that I never saw, then I'll likely follow the letter of the law and tell the scout to find someone that saw him do it to sign off.

So, regarding superior organizational skills, I recognize those scouts that are dealing with a really confusing eagle packet and are struggling with it. If they're honestly trying I will ask questions that will help them out. Ultimately it's always up to the scout.

I'm not sure if this is fair or right but that's what I did. I stepped down as SM mostly because I was tired of dealing with the advancement as aim problem.

As for your two scouts that have a month or two to finish one or two MBs, they have plenty of time. If they're having fun in scouts they'll make it work. Right now they're dealing with finals in school.

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

I learned that 2/3s of the troops in our district provide only two MB opportunities each year, summer camp and MBU.

I don't understand. Why should the troops provide any opportunity? Isn't it up to the scouts to contact the counselors?

When I was a scout in the 70's I remember maybe getting one or two MBs at summer camp (that lasted 2 weeks) and no MBUs.

52 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Mid-70's: Our district called it a MB Pow-Wow. It was fun. We met counselors. Got partials. Got familiar with the college campus. Completed  badges by making phone calls and following up.

I'm okay with the idea of starting a MB, or even just finding out what the MB is about. But it should just be an introduction to the MB.

Our district is doing something interesting this year. First of all, they talked to the counselors from last year and any counselor that said they had a bunch of scouts that were there only because they had to be there, and were not interested in anything other than getting a blue card signed off, they dropped that MB. The result is that the only MBs they have are ones the scouts honestly want to take, things like radio and welding. It honestly looks like fun. At roundtable one parent said there weren't many eagle required MBs offered. The guy in charge of MBU said yep.

On 12/19/2017 at 5:58 AM, WisconsinMomma said:

Would this be interesting story to share for a Scoutmaster minute?  Thank you for sharing.

If done right I'd think the scouts might be fascinated. To think that someone wanted to put a scout in a death camp is so far from normal. To think that  Polish scouts were targeted by the Gestapo because they were involved in the resistance. Bravery. The story of escaping and conning the guards. The fact that Piechowski was close to the age of your scouts will make it more believable.

History is full of fascinating stories and schools do a great job of making them boring. Besides, WWII was an important event and this might be the only chance the scouts might hear anything about it.  I'd use it as a SM minute.

I'm not sure what was in the article above but I found information about Piechowski on Wikipedia.

Nice mix of events.

2 hours ago, Col. Flagg said:

 

Yeah new interface had me thrown too. I think it works when you click the + sign for each post you want to quote. In the lower right a "multi quote" box pops up (at least for me) and then you click that.

 

@He-who-must-not-be-named, I noticed you can also just click on more than one quote and it will add them to the end of your reply window. Like so...

2 hours ago, Col. Flagg said:

Yeah, He Who Must Not Be Named.  You can speak my name, I don't bite....hard. (Sorry Austin Powers).

1 hour ago, perdidochas said:

Sad to say, it's because for whatever reason, scouters have a worse reputation in terms of molesters than do coaches.  

Unless you're an Olympic gymnastics coach, or college football coach, or a swimming coach.

1 hour ago, NJCubScouter said:

 From your reaction, I take it that "French kiss" means the same thing in US and UK, but that is not what people are talking about when they refer to the "French kissy thing."  They mean kissing someone on both cheeks, and according to MattR (and I have no reason to doubt him) you don't even actually kiss the cheek, it is more like a cheek to cheek thing.

Me thinks Ian was being a bit cheeky (and that would be the British definition, not the French definition).

3 hours ago, Back Pack said:

This is a survey as opposed to actual census data. It samples up to 60,000 people so any sampling will be skewed depending on the make up of the random sample. 

https://www.bls.gov/cps/documentation.htm

And a rough back of the envelope calculation of the error bounds on a sample size of 60,000 in a population of 75 million children will give you an accuracy within one percent. i.e., there's a 99% probability that the answer is within 1%. A survey sample size of 60,000 people is really large.

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled program....

38 minutes ago, Back Pack said:

If I am in Japan I will bow. If I am in France I’ll do the kissy thing. If I am in Sweden (and they’re girls) I’ll pretend I’m French and do the kissy thing. If I’m in the USA I’m shaking your hand whoever you are. That’s what we do. 

You might not want to do the French "kissy thing" in Sweden. Do the French kissy thing in France, the Belgian kissy thing in Belgium, .... BTW, a handshake between men in France is fine. Oh, and don't use your lips when doing the kissy thing. It's more cheeky than kissy. All in all, how to say hello is different everywhere and there are subtle rules. I took Japanese in college and we spent an entire class talking about how far to bow. It depends on the people in the room and their relationships, and even the Japanese don't always know. All in all, a great source of fun stories to tell your friends.

4 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

...there may be some parents (and even Scouts and Scouters) who because of their culture are not willing to shake using the left hand. There are some cultures, too, that don’t like to shake hands at all. We should respect their wishes.

What about those that prefer to kiss or hug?

5 hours ago, David CO said:

My students and scouts don't like shaking hands. They regard it as terribly old-fashioned and hopelessly out of date. They tell me that only old people want to shake hands. 

Just tell them that cute Spanish, Italian, and French speaking girls prefer to kiss. Some kids also think punctuation, writing, and reading is hopelessly out of date as well.

But getting back to the OP, I'm wondering if this issue of touching has an element of trust that isn't being brought up. I have no problem hanging a scout upside down, if I know the scout and know he'd likely enjoy the experience. I'd never just walk into some unit's ceremony and grab a kid that I didn't know and turn him upside down. Yes, a few of them would freak out and I'm not interested in that. It takes time to know whether a kid is open to that sort of thing. Is that the issue? The time it takes to develop trust between an adult and a scout?