MaScout

The depression only plays a role in that I am not pressing charges -- yes, he should "pay" for his theft, but at risk of suicide, I think not. $300 is NOT worth his life.

I really like what Double Eagle had to say about eagles in the wild...nice analogy & it helps put things inperspective. Thanks.

The boy gave the same money back. He still had it on him. He took it because he could. (Feathers drooping so they drag on the ground.) He didn't need it. He stood up in front of the troop and confessed to the entire troop, which I thought was gutsy. (His choice to tell them.) He cried the entire time, which is tough for a young man to do in front of peers. He was a PL, (former SPL) & resigned from that position. We are making slow steps, but will weather this out one way or the other...I pray for his growth.

Ma

Caught red-handed & confessed. No room AT ALL for doubt. Scout fights some depression. Learning much by leaps & bounds. Not considering charges -- I just can't do it. I don't feel that is the best way for this lad to learn. Maybe I'm too much of a soft touch? This is one concern when a woman/mom is in the role of SM. But I have sought much council, and all seem to be in agreement with me in not pressing charges.

Actually, I did let the District Advancement Chair know (he insists on attending all Eagle BOR's). We had a SM conference and a troop BOR about it. Parents present. He was given some suggestions & told to wait for maturity. When the time is right, the DAC wants to know & will to schedule BOR. As a team, we are all working to help this young man advance...and I don't just mean get his Eagle, I mean advance in maturity, knowledge, etc. To BECOME an Eagle.

Has anyone ever felt the need to renege on a SM Conference before the BOR took place? How would you go about it? Is it "legal"?

i.e. SM Conference for Eagle. Boy passed with flying colors. Boy stole $300 (from SM). (Side lesson: Boy is good actor.) BOR not held yet. Can he be held up?

No is no is no is no.

I was waaaaay over-involved, too. When I decided to step back some, they (local, district, & council)didn't seem to be able to understand "no", either. The hardest to get to understand "I need some breathing space" was District. When I told them I wished to resign as District Training Chair, first they didn't want to accept my resignation. Then they said, "Okay, but we want you to step into another position that is only one "time period" per year." I found out that was Friends of Scouting District Chair. Whoa! That time period only covers the one time period of what...January to November? I queried if they didn't understand what I was telling them. I had to put it in writing, including that I was not accepting any other positions, and that effective immediately I was not scheduling not putting on any more trainings.

Ultimately the decision is for your family to make. But regardless of how much we like and appreciate it, Scouting can suck the enthusiasm right out of you if you allow it, and that isn't fair to your family. Be strong. It isn't a small job to help get a new unit going...you will be committing a lot of time!

Best wishes...Ma

CRIKEY!!!

We're damned if we do & damned if we don't!

Well--in my case, I am the SM, so if a lad chooses to use me for his MBC, he talks to me right then & there. I can't believe -- forget it -- yes I can -- that you were told you couldn't require the boy to meet with you at the beginning! That's SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) from the reading material (Boy Scout Handbook, page 187)!

1) Obtain from your Scoutmaster...

2) Along with another...attend your first appointment...will explain.." AAAAARGH!

For pity's sake -- how do they know what you want if they don't meet with you?!?! Not trying to shoot you in the bull's eye, nor even shoot the messenger. Just saying AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGHHH!!!!!

Incidentally, when it doesn't say discuss, I don't "require" they discuss it with me. I will sign off the requirement. However, if they don't want to discuss it, they will have to listen to me monologue for a bit, before I "get around" to moving on.

Can you guys believe I actually am a MBC for Communication too? Scary, huh?

OK -- Here's how it works when they want to do a MB with me (and I hope I actually get all the steps in). They get a blue card signed by SM. They talk to me about what they need to do. I give them a sheet with those expectations in writing. They do the work. We meet & go over the requirements -- sometimes not until they have done all they can do on their own, sometimes several times to help clarify or just get small steps done. (This is the part I was referring to when I said the first time it was presented -- as work that has been completed. I didn't mean the first time it was discussed.) But from the beginning they have have been told they need to be able to "discuss" the discussion questions, not just be able to read their written report to me. They also know ahead that even though it is not required to be signed off on the experiment requirements, we WILL be discussing how it pertains to life. Sometimes I encourage a lad to utilize the merit badge worksheets if they have organizational issues. Sometimes I even provide them. (Thank you meritbadge.com!!!!) I always provide my own set of verbal & written instructions BEFORE they start.

So, even though you may say "never mind", I need to be clearer in my explanations. I knew what I was thinking...can't believe you all aren't mind readers!

Thanks for all your responses so far & in the future. I really thought I was correct in what I was doing (and yes, they knew the expectations). I REALLY, really hate it when I allow other people to make me second-guess myself! I think it stems from wanting to do my best for these boys...

I'm not talking about things that have been signed off. I'm talking about items the Scout has prepared and have brought to me to present to ANY MB counselor for the first time. They often write the information down so it isn't all "recall", but this is the first time it was discussed with ANY MB Counselor. So when I say "done", I simply mean the Scout has worked through that requirement, but not presented it to a counselor. A counselor is to verify the work is completed. How do we verify it if we don't discuss? Just look at written records?

You're right, the Scouts do not have to accept me as a MB counselor. But if they do, they know ahead of time I visit with all Scouts on all MB's because I believe it is an opportunity to learn and I want to verify it is their work. Especially when the requirement says "discuss" vs. "write it down". So in the case described, where they are asked to "discuss", I am wanting them to understand well enough TO discuss, not just read what is on a piece of paper. So -- if they write a report instead of verbally discussing it, AM I asking them to "redo work they have already done" by asking for an intelligent discussion about it? I don't know...maybe I am...

In regards to the experiments -- I DO NOT refuse to "sign off" the requirement, but I do want to discuss it with them vs. just looking at the results, so they understand the bigger picture & don't just perform the experiment & write down the answers. There is no learning going on in that situation that I can see. This is NOT confrontational at all...very comfortable.

Does this make sense? Now, in this case, I AM asking for feedback on what I see as a judgement call, so "have at it" all.

As a MB counselor, when a lad comes to me to discuss what he has done for a merit badge and get some items signed off, I ask questions about what is written down or completed. I am looking for understanding about what was done. I have occasionally encountered resistance from a Scout, and more often from a parent, that the Scout shouldn't have to "explain" to me, as long as it is done.

Environmental Science is a primary one where this concern is raised. For example, when they complete their experiments, I ask them something like, "So, in the bigger picture of the world or life, how does this relate?" If they don't "get it", we discuss it until they do.

When they are to "Find out about three career opportunities in environmental science," & "Pick one and find out the education, training, and experience required for this profession. Discuss this with your counselor, and explain why this profession might interest you," I expect them to comprehend what they are talking about. I have encountered great resistance on this requirement. I had one young man (age 12) whose written "report" read a LOT like his 17-year-old brother researched & wrote the report. When I asked him to verbally tell me about the selected profession, he knew nothing about it...not even what the job was! We worked through this, also, but I didn't "just accept it".

Am I "adding to" the requirements? Or should understanding be implicit?

Ooops! Brain lapse...if done correctly, the firepan on rocks does NOT scar the rocks! I know that...but not this morning, apparently! In regards to "mound fires", we can haul in our own materials to "mound", but generally are not allowed to build a mound with the materials around us, as we are in a pasture or similar. Just looking for more ideas...

Right on, OGE!!!

Now...how do we get our Scouts AND Scouters to become skilled scouters and help our new Scouts to become skilled outdoorsmen?

While I am very familiar with established fire pits, our troops often camp where there aren't established fire pits or even established camp grounds.

I am also quite familiar with mound fires. There are a lot of places we camp where this simply isn't practical NOR LNT. When we camp in someone's pasture, we would have to dig dirt to create the mound. Also, we are usually required to have "sides" around our fire and a top available if needed, due to fire issues. My personal opinion is that you still scar those rocks, too.

My question is more about the "less obvious" solutions and the "more creative". I'm not talking about backpacking, where you have to travel with your fire pit. I'm wondering more about camporees and car camping...

What do other troops do for this? In our area, we have a wide variety of "solutions" for this. Some of them are:

>Tractor tire rim (or smaller car or truck rim), legs welded on to get it off the ground, grate in the bottom for wood, flat piece of metal for "lid" or ground cover to catch the coals.

>Old washing machine tub set on cinder blocks. Grate off an old Weber grill fits on this perfectly for grilling or setting a pan or coffee pot. Air holes "built in", and totes your ashes away with you.

>Several more I've seen, but can't remember how to describe...

They may explicitly work on them over the span of their Cub Scout career. If you are looking at some of them you might want to work on, you might get ahold of a Webelos book. I always marked the ones I wanted to work on as Webelos so we didn't have to do the requirements twice - once if we earned it earlier, and then again to work on a Webelos Activity Badge.

Many years ago, our experienced Scout patrol felt the new Scout patrol wasn't advancing quickly enough, and decided to plan a "rank advancement" campout for them. This has snowballed. Now they (the original experienced Scouts are gone) were offended this last year when I asked them if they really wanted to have this as one of their troop outings. Of course they did! This was their opportunity to share the skills they had developed over the years. They divvy up the areas depending on their strengths & teach skills. We start Friday evening and go until Sunday evening. We camp locally, so we don't spend time driving. The older Scouts do virtually ALL the teaching. Adults are on hand in a supervisory capacity. We hike. We work on fire starting, first aid, and knot tying. We learn compass skills & hike a mile with a compass. We find signs of native animals & native plants. On & on. However: This IS a choice the SCOUTS make. Is this something the older boys in your troop might be interested in starting?

Also, as has been mentioned before, if a Scout misses the outing, we can't duplicate all this at the very next meeting or outing. Also, for some of the skills we cover, just because they duplicated them ONCE doesn't mean they learned them...

During the Patrol Leader's Conferences, the annual plan is made, then the monthly plans are made. It is ultimately the BOYS who should be determining the game plan for the outings. Conversely to the above example, our boys often do not plan ANY advancement into the weekend. This last weekend for example, they went fishing. One boy came to me and asked to complete his Totin' Chip which he had done most of. We did this. That is the ONLY advancement done the entire weekend! A couple boys worked on their fishing MB, but as far as T-2-1, that was it. But they had fun.

We find that if we attend a number of District events, we don't have time to work on our own ideas, because program gets in the way. Initially, we had a hard time not supporting EVERY District event, but finally got over that. Now, if we plan our own events, the program is what we want it to be. We don't plan on working on advancement if we are at a District event at all.

Regardless of each one's personal thoughts, what message are (would) the Scouts (be) receiving?

First: It is okay to disobey any rules we disagree with, even though we made a vow to uphold all the rules. It is okay to not be trustworthy, etc.

Second: Regardless of what actually happens -- or doesn't happen -- in the tent, a youth's PERCEPTION is that a sexual relationship MIGHT occur. Most (not all) Scouts would find it "not right" that two unmarried people would share a tent, especially if it were two unmarried people of opposite gender or two people of the same gender who are self-proclaimed homosexuals (in which case, they wouldn't be leaders in Boy Scouts).

Why, in a group who puts such a high value on honor, would we want to deliberately tarnish our image?

Moreover, most of us are talking about BSA standards and we are in the GSUSA forum! Many of the same principles apply, but the RULES aren't the same.

When we retire a large number of flags (40+ at our last troop meeting), we retire the 1st & last with a big ceremony. We retire the rest with a very simple presentation, similar to posting the colors: all at attention, 2 lines of boys to form a column for Color Guard to march past, Color Guard to front carrying one flag, prepare to present, present (hold upright in front of fire), salute, prepare to retire, retire, stand at attention till unrecognizable, color guard back to starting position. Switch groups around so more have a chance to retire. Obviously, you'd want an experienced Scout with a "big" voice to call commands...and much more formally than I have written.

It was fun to see this brought up... I agree that the requirements do not state who you must camp with, it just wants you camping in a tent YOU pitched or under the stars, not in a cabin. 20 nights is not hard to accomplish, but it DOES take some planning (preferably by the troop, but it can be within the family). Our Troop routinely schedules more than 30 nights camping per year. The patrols may add more. Once upon a time (a couple years ago) my son logged in 87 days/nights in a 13 week period. BTW -- there is a cool patch available for Scouts & Scouters who earn 100, 250, & 1000 days/nights cumulatively over their Scouting career. These can be anywhere/anyhow (in a tent!) approved by the SM.

FTR (For the Record) -- I DO agree with the idea of "do it this way just to circumvent". A Scout is honest. There is nothing honest, obedient, or trustworthy about bending the rules or "cheating" on them.

FYI -- The campout I will be participating in this weekend truly isn't a pretend family event...1st -- not all the troop (nor even one patrol) will be there. We are playing. Some of our friends are Scouts. Some are not.

How-some-ever...I NEED to check into the "Winter Camp" & Webelos MUCH MORE CLOSELY!!! Where I live, we have a "100 degrees of frost" award -- primarily for Boy Scouts, but also earnable by Webelos who are camping with BS's. I'm thinking this needs to be checked into very closely... (1 degree earned for each degree below freezing, accumulated between 10/01 & 05/31 of one year. Boy Scouts have earned up to 78 degrees on one weekend...NOT a good place for inexperienced campers.) From what I am reading, I believe this needs to be stopped. NOW. Maybe last year...

You all forgot to hammer NDL about incorrect naming of the uniform, too... Remember, there are always AT LEAST two ways to say something, and one of them is nice! When forum members have a gut reaction to something, we need to THINK before we fire back a response... Eamonn & JKC -- you guys have a lot of insight & wisdom to share. It would be better received if you were kind in the manner you share. Verbal castigation generally results in someone dropping from the forum, NOT in "learning".

Sometimes we get so wrapped up in "this is right & this is wrong" we can't see the forest through the trees.

NDL is saying -- DON'T TAKE YOUR WEBELOS CAMPING IN THE WINTER. Then goes on to say if YOU want to camp in the winter, go camping. By all means, invite a friend & his Dad. If they are both Webelos, too, SO WHAT?!? Do any of you go camping with your family? Do any of you ever go camping with friends? Are any of them also in Scouts? Our family often goes camping...with friends...who are in Scouts. This is NOT a Scout outing. We do not wear uniforms & we do not advertise in the Troop or Pack newsletter.

This weekend, we are going camping. Some friends are coming. Some of them are Scouts. Some are from broken homes. We will be paintballing. I do not feel the property owner nor the troop/pack leadership are responsible at all...they have nothing to do with this.

NDL was just making a suggestion for winter camping if you want to do this activity. (Incidentally, I didn't even realize this was forbidden in the G2SS as our District has routinely invited Webelos to attend Winter Klondike...and spend the night...in tents.)

Ma signing off, reminding the children to "play nice"!

I think a small item from home might be okay, but HOO-

BOY! I would NOT recommend a stuffed animal. The other boys WILL ridicule him if they find out about having a stuffed animal. You may think they won't/don't...but they will. On the lines of still being a baby... I know, all "our" Scouts are kinder than this...NOT!

Mail from home -- our first year scouts like it, but the older ones prefer to NOT receive mail...it singles them out & embarrasses them. Depending on what the parents write, they can be good or not so good...if they are supportive of the decision to be in camp, pumped up & excited, and not detailing all the fun the ones at home are having -- those are good.

There are some more ideas in another thread -- about a month & a half ago or more??

I just Googled "Victor Cass" and came up with the following link to his response:

http://www.pasadenaweekly.com/article.php?id=3405&IssueNum=19

YIS, Ma

My first reaction to ScoutNut's suggestion of a 3-6 mile hike was, "Whoa! Hoo-Boy!" After a little thought, I'd say it really depends on where you take that 3-6 mile hike! We just took our new Boy Scouts on their 5-mile hike. It took 8-9 hours, and they didn't dink around. But they didn't walk on a level path, either. So you really need to tailor the length of the hike to the conditions you will be hiking. If I would have taken our Webelos on a 6-mile hike over the same terrain, we would have had lunch AND supper out there! AND some exausted boys. Our Webelos usually take a hike that lasts around 2-3 hours (of hiking - not dinking around). Hiking on level ground and/or on a path or road makes the trip much more do-able.

Woodbadge won't clear it up. It isn't unit type specific. Reading, asking in forums like this, and Venturing training are your best bets.

In our units, we consider staffing at BSA camps to be "active" -- they are at A Scout function -- same when boys miss for Jambo, NJLIC, etc.

Our Pack always had snacks at Pack Meetings. Many of the dens, my sons' dens especially, had snacks regularly. However, they met right after school and most of them needed a snack of some sort to tide them over. I just explained to them that Boy Scouts is different in many ways...some in the program itself, but also in how it is delivered -- like meets in the evening and has no snacks, as they just got done with their evening meal.