MaScout

We won't be participating, either. Not so much from any "political" type issues, though, as I can't hardly get my dishes done, so I'm certainly NOT going to get ashes mailed out anywhere!

However, the reason I'm posting is just to share a story. We have 3 sons. The oldest is "Joe Scouter" to the max. The youngest was Mr. Ho-Hum for a long time. When the oldest had his Eagle CoH (outdoors), he started a "family can" of ashes. He had his uncle (who is an Eagle) light the fire, then at the end of the ceremony, he put ashes in the can, which he handed off to son #2, urging him to do the same for son #3 when he got his Eagle. Then asking both brothers for a committment to continue the ash can for each of their sons as they got Eagle. A new family tradition was hatched. AND Son #1 caught son #3...NO WAY he is missing out on something so important!

Ahhh...it feels so good when it works.

MaScout

iiipopes -- across the street from Wal-Mart?!?!?!

Check with THEM. Many Wal-Mart's will host your group, providing the water & "stuff", AND match your profit, up to $250.

I'd appreciate clarification, too. I was DTC for some time, & taught the OLT & SM Specific many times. Venturing is rather "new" out here, so I didn't teach the course, but attended as a trainee. The trainings are NOTHING alike!!! I can see where they might have the training at the same time, but would need a totally separate instruction! This doesn't make sense to me!

Ma Scout

I'm thinking what Trevorum is thinking. We used to use a wall chart, but the adult leaders at the time thought only adults were supposed to fill it in. It was a pain in the tooka & frankly, I had better things to do with my time. But if the boys marked it down after it was signed off, hmmmm......

First -- my apologies for the length of this reply. I have been thinking for several days now, and rather than becoming more concise, I have become more verbose.

Ultimately this is a personal family decision, which should only be made after long (impartial) family discussions of the pros & cons, and what everyone wants/is looking for.

What does your son want to do? Why?

What do you want to do? Why?

Have you prayed about it? How do you feel led?

Personally, I believe in the Boy Scout program. I also believe in the Cub Scout program. I also believe there are good fits & not-so-good fits between a program & a boy. It sounds like your sons fit with the Webelos program he was in wasnt so good. My sons experiences in Webelos were very good. Their/our experiences in Boy Scouts have been very good. Sure there are bad days. But thats life. There are also some AWESOME days, and they outweigh & outnumber the bad. Our family is very much involved in the outdoors, too. However, the experience they (the boys) get through Scouting is vastly different than the family outdoor experience.

Webelos sure it can be weak. Especially if its a not-so-good fit for you & your son. But it can be way cool. Our boys do Science experiments, go on hikes, take numerous field trips, practice CPR on dummies, visit the voting locations, learn to cook, go swimming, pick up trash, oh the list goes on & on. New & unusual opportunities are presented & its up to the Scout to decide what to participate in.

Boy Scouts is quite different. The first couple years the boys are on a sharp learning curve. They need to learn how to do soooo many things! The new Scouts in our troop are still trying to get over the idea that adults will set up their tents & prepare meals for them. Of course, we dont dump them into this cold turkey, but there is so much to learn they cant possibly do it all in just a couple years. They learn new skills, new responsibilities, and learn leadership from the older boys. Sometimes it just doesnt work, and the boy drops out. Hopefully, by the time they are in 7th grade or so, they have matured enough to begin taking on more of a leadership role, leading into senior leadership when they get even older.

Scouting can open many doors and has an unbelievable set of opportunities for growth, like Youth Leader Training, National Youth Leader Training, Jamboree, Philmont Treks, Boundary Waters, Florida Sea Base, and SO much more! But a young man needs to WANT to pursue those things. He needs to have an interest in developing these areas of his life. If he wants to and you dont, it is a very viable option to allow him to continue while you step back. This might even give him another opportunity for growth.

Most of us here are avid Scouters, or we wouldnt spend so much of our time on these forums (among other things) trying to improve our own units, and trying to help others. We believe in the program. We believe in the mission, ideals, & methods of Scouting. Why? Weve seen them work. So if you ask this group of people for their input, they are generally going to be pro-Scouting. Thats who we are. But ultimately, we cannot answer for you, your son, or your situation.

Best wishes! Ma Scout

Although I can't quote nor cite right now, I believe it is national policy that a boy can complete requirements for any previous badge until they earn the current badge. Which means: The boys can "graduate" into the Webelos den, but have until they earn the Webelos rank to complete the Bear rank requirements. They need to complete the Bobcat requirements first, obviously. But they could theoretically earn both their Wolf AND Bear ranks before they receive their Webelos badge.

Got a gutsy yet tactful SPL? We had one who once stopped his meeting and asked (very politely) if the adults in the back could please be a little quieter because they were distracting the troop members from where their attention needed to be directed. Last time we had a problem. The adults were not upset, just embarrased they had caused a problem that needed corrected by a youth.

Ma Scout

Whew! From what I understand...and I may be misreading it...mbscoutmom said it was her understanding from Baloo training that Webelos may attend with a parent OR another adult, but younger Cubs must attend with a PARENT or not attend. However, it IS okay for a younger Cub to attend with another adult. (Water muddy enough yet? I'm confused even if you're not! )

IN OUR COUNCIL, we are limited to a 5 to 1 maximum ratio, with of course never less than 2 adult leaders.

Yeah...what Lisa'bob said... But I think of it more this way...It took more than 30 years before I got to be a Boy Scout, and I'm gonna' enjoy every moment of it! My first son started Cubs in 1991. My last still has 7 years. Sometimes I get tired, but oh what fun I've had and will continue to have! I do think you're smart to not volunteer as SM at this time, though. (I'll be considerable older than 52 when he's through, by the way. The main challenge is getting up in the mornings (off the ground) in the middle of the winter.)

Ma Scout

mbscoutmom -- I looked up the wording in my copy of the BALOO training manual, because I was pretty sure ScoutNut was right. S/he is right. On page 21 of the Baloo training manual, Paragraph 5: "We introduce Cub Scouts to the outdoors through.....they enjoy...camping, and now, with a parent or other adult, pack overnighters. Paragraph 6 says: "Webelos Scouts take the second step in outdoor adventure by taking part in more advanced overnight campouts with a parent or responsible adult." (I guess the adult for younger Cubs doesn't have the be "responsible"??? )

In response to how many youth one adult may be responsible for, the Baloo training manual, on p. 20, last paragraph: "Pack camping activities are intended to include youth members and responsible adults. It is recognized that, on occasion, siblings and other family members may also be participating and that the ratio of boys to adults may increase. In all cases, each participant is responsible to a specific adult. It is up to the local council to set acceptable standards for this ratio."

Thanks CNY...probably too far, especially since he doesn't have a car. I'll have him start looking around New London... Ma

Follow your heart...the van is a gracious and worthy idea. However, I agree that the lad who designed the patch should have gotten one. Couldn't the council be convinced to give him one of those missing patches? Is the boy one who would treasure it? I personally would probably give the patch to the boy and try to raise the funds elsewhere...I'd even venture a guess that many on this forum would donate to the cause. (I would. ) But in the end...it's your patch. Do with it as you wish.

Ma Scout

Well...the Swimming MB is an alternate required MB. Meaning??? The boy may choose from swimming OR hiking OR cycling. So...he doesn't HAVE to earn the Swimming MB for Eagle, just one of those three.

This won't let me spin off a new thread...so I'll incorrectly post this here...

CNY -- How far are you from New London, CT? I have a son at the CG Academy there, and sometimes he's looking for something to do on a weekend...he is a registered leader with our troop, a lot of fun, and has many skills he'd like to share if he found a troop out there that could use him... Anybody? (Actually, he has a long weekend the April 28 - May 1, then probably wouldn't be available until the fall, as he has summer duty assignments in Alaska & the Carribean.)

Thanks! Ma Scout

CNY -- YAHOO! Hope things keep happening for you!

Ma

I don't have a good answer to the "camping" question, but BALOO trained leaders or not, you aren't supposed to take a Cub Scout group "camping" unless the site is on the "approved" list by your council... So, is it camping? Is it "legal" by BSA rules? I don't know. I just know the museum probably is not an "approved" camp site.

Camp Laramie Peak, Mountain Man Camp, Guernsey, WY

Longs Peak Council, Mountain Time Zone

Why: This is THE BEST Mountain Man Camp I have ever experienced. It is run by a Caddo by the name of Gray Coon. They learn a multitude of mountain man skills. They work hard, they play hard, and the boys love it! It is great enough that each summer he has to turn away volunteers! Some live in teepees, some in log cabins. (They are actually all called lodges...some are canvas "teepees", some are long-houses or round-houses.) They learn fire-starting, trap setting, 'hawk throwing, knot-tying, arrow-building, knapping, etc. They are separate from the base camp most of the week, but do join up at the closing campfire. They suffered a fire several years back, but are trying to get the metal-working area rebuilt, too.

Aaah...I wondered if this was the concern. Have any of the adult leaders or any Scouts in your troop attended an Eagle CoH? Do they know what to expect or do?

I would suggest an adult leader assist the Eagle with the planning. The MC should be involved, but the Eagle should do the planning...it is his ceremnoy. I would recommend getting the book "the Eagle Court of Honor book" by Mark Ray.

Our town hadn't had an Eagle for years. We were clueless...but this book is where we started. I recently changed computers, but if I can locate the file where I stored my Eagle CoH Planning Guide (my design) I hand out to our candidates, I will pm it to you...

Ma Scout

Ok -- things seem to work when this boy-led thing operates like it should, hm?

My response to the request for a ceremony was, "I'll present it to the boys, and get back to you." Beyond that, I honestly had a brain freeze...I was stupefied they would request this.

Upon hearing the date, those Scouts immediately said, "That's the weekend we are going fishing & boating." I couldn't even think that out!

While I understand the desire to keep a long-standing troop's charter, I personally see more benefit for those boys to join a functional troop. Troop A's SM wants to save the troop, obviously, but she is the only non-"paper-only" leader. They have one boy on the roster who knows he is there. I don't know if they have more names the parents said they could use, or if they have written a letter to the Council requesting special dispensation. But they DON'T have an active anything. No troop meetings, no outings, no ... anything. They can't do the bridging, because they don't have any scouts!

Well, the first request (ceremony) is out because we had a previous committment. The rest I'll let ride for now. I think we'll work with them and I will visit with the parents...staying "together" at the cost of the Scouting experience...but I'll be more subtle than that. Show them what a dynamite experience we are having, then ask them to compare that to what the other troop is doing.

There are a couple (parents) I wouldn't mind have join the other troop, though!

Thanks all for responding and listening. I needed a safe place to vent. I'll keep checking in.

Ma

We've knocked their socks off repeatedly, which is why they want us to do the cross over...have several boys with their own regalia, do tiki torches, yadda, yadda... They want the bennies, but are adamant they are going to "save" Troop A. The Scouts & leaders in Troop B really enjoy working with them...but there are some lines I think??? I can't decide if they have brass kahoonies or just aren't thinking what they are asking.

Our small town has one Pack and two Troops. One Troop is active, boy-led, & dynamic. The other hasn't held a troop meeting in over 2 years. The town really is only big enough to support one.

New (next year) Webelos 2 den has openly declared they are all joining the defunct troop, to keep it from losing it's charter. (This Troop -- call it Troop A -- has been going for 74 years. Troop B has only been going for 9 years, but is strong.) Troop A's SM is the Cub Scout Committee Chair, and she has been openly been trying to influence the parents to this decision.

Troop B has repeatedly approached Troop A about joining forces...even retaining Troop A's charter & dropping B's. The idea wasn't even entertained.

So...the Cub Scout Pack has asked Troop B to:

1) provide a graduation/bridging ceremony in May

2) provide transportation for two separate summer events, because the Troop has a bus

3) Provide "Boy Scout camping" opportunities to meet Arrow of Light & Outdoorsman Webelos Activity Badge.

How does Troop B leadership say, "What are you thinking?" or "Dream on!" while maintaining Scout Spirit? How to introduce these new BS parents to the idea of meshing troops? Like, "Are you willing to work on the concept of..."

Ma

(SM, Troop B)

p.s. Yes, there are a lot of things left unsaid. The original split was not pleasant. But only 2 adults remain from that time (the 2 SM's), and I think it's time to move on!

You guys are rich! I find myself checking in often these days, just to see what else has been posted on this thread! Great entertainment!

Just for the record...Unless the physique is DYNAMITE, speedos on men are repulsive looking...but then so are bikinis with a pooch and a torpedo bust.

Keep sending the chuckles! Ma

It seems to me that most "silly" or "pointless" rules come from adults who don't really have a reason. However, if there is a good reason for things, and those reasons are explained to the youth, they are no longer "silly". Like expressed above, most of our camp rules are designed by the Scouts. They have put rules in place for those who: won't eat the main meal, but scarf all the desert; "get sick" when their turn comes up on the duty roster; and have even addressed pop & snacks in tents. Pop...mostly it is the expense. Sometimes they have some for a treat. I like the idea of bottles...maybe add their name. We don't use paper cups, so don't have to address that issue.

Now...food in tents. Our troop tents are used when we backpack in bear country...do you already see where I'm going with this? One candy bar squished into the floor of a tent this winter becomes bear bait even 6 months or 18 months later. Our older & more experienced Scouts don't like this scenario. They enforce a policy that if you have food inside a tent, you purchase that tent. They don't forbid snacks...just not in the tents! (As a courtesy rule, however, they encourage any snack-bringers to bring enough to share with their patrol or the troop.)

Ma

The professional training company was contracted by BSA to develop the training material. It is BSA training material and the training is put on by BSA volunteers on a council level. The training company also provided training for the trainers. I believe BSA pays a fee to this company each time the material is used. I don't know the legal terms here, but they apparently still have the copyright or a shared copyright, or something like that. (I asked why we couldn't get printed copies of the outlines and was told this.)

What is your position in the troop? Are you in a position where you can do something about this?

One thing that works over time is to be prepared and on the offensive with positive feedback about the SM. Before they can get into the negatives, start out with giving SM kudos on a couple things done. This won't change things today, but over a period of time, they'll start seeing what you're seeing.

How are you at handling conflict? If they start in on the SM, do you have the skills to deflect the gossip and redirect the discussion in a more positive direction? Something like, "Well that is very interesting, but how does that pertain to the issue at hand?" or "Could we get back to the agenda item. I really need to get home and help my son/spouse with..." Now don't mistake me...I'm the world's worst with tact. I calls it like I sees it. That isn't always the best diplomacy tactic. I'm working on changing that in myself. But I've seen the above ideas put into practice, and the people doing it were GOOD.

Support your SM. Let him/her know you are in their corner. Discover the other adults who believe in the SM & how s/he is doing, and get them to be verbal. Be verbal about your support.

Positive attitudes beget optimism. Negative attitudes beget...oh, a whole raft of negative things I don't want to get into...

I am a SM. There are times I've wanted to tuck tail and RUN from the adults. I just keep reminding myself that it's about the kids. We now have an AWESOME CC who is 150% supportive. The last couple years have been SO much easier!

Hang in there. YOUR SM NEEDS YOU!!! Bless you for noticing and caring.

Ma