MaScout

oldsm -- very valid question & I'm sorry I forgot to include the answer. I actually thought about it before I posted, I just forgot to include the info. The school is K-12, about 400 students total.

So...what qualities make a "good" camp? Which make a camp experience "bad"? Why? Maybe list your top 3 or so... Thanks! Ma (Yes, there's method to my madness. )

Our school wants to host a flag retirement for Veteran's Day, and wants our troop to do it. They want to take the entire student body out to the football field & have a big ceremony. What is your take on this? I'll tell you mine later.

Oh yeah...I'm obviously NOT an Eagle Scout, but I am the SM in our troop. I also substitute teach. One year I was long term subbing at our school & one of my classes was "lifetime sports". The regular PE teacher had nets set up for Pickle Ball. They were pathetic knots & couldn't keep the nets tight, as OGE mentions. I finally couldn't stand it anymore & put in tautlines. The classes were much happier. One of the Eagle Scouts from our troop loudly proclaimed, "Ma Scout, you tied these, didn't you? Why don't you teach Mr. PE how?" (Of course, I suggested HE teach it to Mr. PE)

Not me, but my son told the following story: Last summer he was on the Coast Guard cutter "Eagle". It was the 225th birthday (or some such number) for the Coast Guard, so they were having a celebration on board. One of the "competitions" was knot-tying. Most of the young cadets were out early on. As time went on,the competition narrowed to fewer & fewer, with my son being the only young one left. They finished with my son only being bested by a 30-year veteran. His comment to my son? "You were a Boy Scout, weren't you?"

I think each situation has to be assessed on it's own merits. It sounds like Laura's son was hit harder than usual. My son, too, was on camp staff for three years. He put in tremendously long hours, with the year has 50-mile hike ranger hitting an all-time intensity level. However, HE thought it was wonderful. He said, "Ma, I hike all week long to the highest peaks. I do what I like doing most in the world, and at the end of the week, they give me a paycheck and say it was work." (Yes, he calls me Ma.) His day typically began at 5 AM & he went to bed at 11 PM. Even at night, he was responsible for his crew. He fed off this situation. However, it sounds like Jon's isolation was different & more intense in its own way. Just as not every boy is meant to be in Scouts, not every Scout is meant to be camp staff.

Staff week consisted of preparing camp (setting up tents, building tent platforms, and the last year -- scouting out, lumbering, & remarking the 50-mile trail (it had been through a devastating forest fire.) The campers take 5 days on this trail. He scouted it, carrying a chain saw & personal gear, in two. They also train for their position, as well as train on how to put on their public face, YPT, CPR, etc. One year, staff week ended with a hurried evacuation of camp due to a fire moving in on them. That year, we were moved into the periphery of another council camp & held sessions there as best we could. MY son still loved it, but you have to be sold on the program & be made of pretty stern internal stuff to love the intenisty.

So I think Laura's son made the right choice for him. My eldest made the right choice for him. My middle wants nothing to do with being camp staff. That is the right choice for him. (I'm considering applying for camp director next year...guess where oldest son gets his insanity? lol)

We each have our niche to fill. The job is to find it. Thank goodness there are people who like to do the paperwork, run concession stands, and act as secretary & treasurer. If everyone wanted to do the outdoor stuff (or be on camp staff), there wouldn't be anyone left to do the other "stuff".

Hang in there -- whatever you & your family's choices are.

Ma Scout

Our OA team determined that they were done with such long ceremonies. We had SM's who wanted to keep up the suspense and wouldn't mark the candidates until late -- like the 5th or 6th pass. Their solution? They hold a SM's meeting and tell them they will make three passes to collect candidates. Troops are to show 1/3 of their Scouts each pass. On their 4th, "clearing" pass, they will not collect any more scouts. They had to get tough with the SM's, but it worked! And everyone really appreciates the shorter time frame!

Where are you hiking? Actually, my question is who is supplying the food? Philmont food is notoriously bad. My son who's motto is, "if you're hungry you'll eat it, if you're thirsty you'll drink it, and if you're tired you'll sleep" found "Tooth of Time Chicken" unswallowable. (I believe it has been phased out.) However, what he learned was that a small bottle of seasoning salt and a bottle of cholula sauce are necessities! He put his cholula sauce in for a Rayado trek after the shakedown. The entire crew loved him! So, seasonings may be "needed".

Sorry for the double post!

Tale to your district people...our's lets us have archery IF we have the right trained people, AND it is for "recruitment", which they call a district activity.

Tale to your district people...our's lets us have archery IF we have the right trained people, AND it is for "recruitment", which they call a district activity.

Our camp doesn't let first year campers take the MB. This is from the range instructor, and he wants a little more maturity on the boys. I realize it doesn't always happen in one year, but better chance of it. Versus getting a whole bunch of very excited first year's who are too excited to stand still, let alone listen! On occaision, if he knows the lad, and knows the lad has shooting experience, he'll let him take the MB -- but this is a rare exception.

Also, the SM must sign the blue card after the MB Counselor to validate it.

SR540 put it well with "...to determine if it was worth it to prove a point or provide my son with the best scouting experience I could."

I was actually coming back to say - FWIW (For What It's Worth), we have not regretted starting a new troop. We have a fun & dynamic group. It was well worth the effort. If another troop would have been within a reasonable driving distance, our choice probably would have been different, but as it is... we chose the right path for us.

Can your troop not request to have unit members present?

Who will be there to present the youth for his Board of Review? Could the lack of signature be addressed at that time?

Our council generally tries to have unit committee members sit on the Eagle BoR. However, we ALWAYS have someone there to "present" the candidate. At that time, they share pertinent information with the Eagle board. Once upon a time, we had an Eagle candidate who had a (serious) problem after his SM Conference & signature and before the Eagle BoR. A simple phone call to the District Advancement Chair explaining the situation held the entire process up. The DAC waited until the SM (that would be me) gave approval to go forward.

First, I would encourage you to seriously consider either staying with the troop youre in and try to help improve it, or to join another pre-existing troop if it is at all feasible. Visit some of the other troops meetings and outings, and see how theyre run. Talk to the adult leaders and find out how they feel about how a troop should operate, whether theirs is actually performing properly or not.

How does your son feel? Is there another troop he wants to join? How does he feel about the stress it can cause? How dependent is he on his friendship with his fellow scouts?

No money and very little equipment are difficult issues, but can be overcome. We had a lot of equipment and supplies donated to us. We started out with some pancake feeds, which are easy to plan, inexpensive to fund, and raise a fair amount of cash.

So...what were the most difficult issues? I think creating & maintaining a boy-led troop, the initial time investment, and adult baggage. I will elaborate on some below.

Initially, it is very time intensive. However, when the troop is operating more like BSA intended, it doesnt take all that much time. It is really very nice when you can sit back and say, Aaah, that is how its supposed to work! (Two months ago, I still had a parent question why I was reading a book while the troop was fishing. Why wasnt I teaching the boys instead of making the older boys do it?!?)

Adult interpersonal relationships adults carry & hold on to more baggage than kids do.

Believing in oneself & the cause, especially when others are doubting you.

Boy-led

Adults resisted

Its easier to do it themselves

Adults have always done it

Fear of the unknown

Boys resisted

Its easier to have the adults do it

Fear of the unknown

Lack of self-confidence

Lack faith in the system working

Rising above the circumstances: When people are criticizing you, it is very hard to not respond in a like manner. It is difficult to not allow your hard feelings to speak, but to speak gently & lovingly instead. When others tell lies about you, it is difficult to take the high road, hold your head high, and not fall into mud slinging yourself. Holding onto the idea that the truth will win out. Remember, Methinks thou dost protest too much. You need to find the area between standing for truth & letting others know it, and not protesting so much that you seem to be a liar. Be diplomatic and tactful about why you are leaving your current troop, but not hurtful. This can be very difficult when you are being put under the microscope and criticized for rocking the boat.

Ultimately, you & your family have to determine if the situation is bad enough to warrant the change, if your son (& you) would rather quit scouts than deal with this, and if you all would be happier with a different situation. Then, you must do what is in the best interest of your family. Whether that is trying to change the unit you're in, changing units, or starting a new unit -- blessings & "good providence" to you. If you want to discuss this further, I'd be happy to reply to a pm.

Ma Scout

Ginny Post, SM T96

Hmmm...I'll get back to you. I want to give this some serious thought & introspection. Ma

Aaah...Hunt has the essence of it...be gentle. If someone (especially a newbie) asks a question, they DO want answers. They just don't want attacked for being so stupid as to not know the right answer on their own. There are always at least two ways to tell someone something. And one of them is kind. And sometimes they make what they believe is an innocent comment and they get attacked. Gentle correction and guidance would go a lot further here. If they get attacked, they will go on the defensive. That is human nature. At that time, anything you have to tell them will be lost. So...if you actually want your ideas to be heeded (is that a word?), be gentle.

In general, we haven't gotten too mean here lately, but we do need to constantly mind our kindness level. When we find someone has their facts wrong, yes, we should help them find the correct facts as FS suggests. But let us do it kindly, not "pounce" on them. (Big cats pounce before they kill you know.)

FS states: "For example, troops can make blue jeans part of the uniform, sod surfing is OK if you dont get a tour permit, and boards of review should test the boy on all 10 official Scout knots is going to get pounced big time."

These statements have all been taken out of context and are NOT what the posters said. They ARE a manipulation of what was said and could be interpreted from the statements. But so could other interpretations. For the most part, the posters (especially the sod surfing) MAY have been reached if they had been helped to see the light instead of being attacked. Now don't get me wrong and don't take it out of context... I think sod surfing is unsafe & not a good idea. (I think it sounds like fun & something MY children would do, but definitely a no-no in Scouting. My children like to go "tire rolling" too...they tuck themselves inside a tractor tire & roll down big hills...stupid and dangerous, but they have fun. We would NEVER do it in Scouts, and they don't do it with my blessing, but that is a different story.) I think "going around" Scout rules by not filing a tour permit and announcing it is "not a Scout function" is wrong -- you know -- not trustworthy. I believe in the method of uniforming -- correctly. I don't believe the BoR should be a retest of anything. (I have gotten into a heated argument with our committee who decided to retest each time -- my husband was the "ringleader" on this one. They "failed" a Scout because he couldn't jump through all the hoops they wanted -- he was nervous & scared. He was "pounced on". He knew all his material, just couldn't spit it out while on the "hot seat".)

I just think it is easier & more desirable to catch those flies with honey than chasing them off with a flyswatter! And the "flies" might be inclined to listen & learn instead of leaving the forum believing there are mean-spirited people here.

Wow! It sounds like the first troop my oldest son started out in. We (my husband & I, along with one other couple) tried to iniate changes. Ultimately (after talking to SM about putting a boy in tears at a SM Conference) I was told (in quite loud & forceful tones) that it was the SM's troop & he'd run it however he wanted, and if I didn't like it I should "shut up & butt out!" At that time we felt like the options were:

1) Remain with the troop & keep our mouths shut (HA HA! Fat chance with me! )

2) Change troops

3) Drop out of Scouts

4) Start a new troop

I was all for option 2. It would take us out of town & a minimum of 40 miles one way, but was the "easiest". I couldn't live with choice #1. I didn't want to choose #3 because son wouldn't have Scouts in his life. Ultimately, along with the other couple, we opted for #4.

It was hard. It was heart-rending. It caused hard feelings in the community. It damaged the relationship between my son and the SM's son. Do I regret it? Not a chance. Not one minute.

It's been hard, but we did have several older boys come alongside, so that helped. But we had NOONE -- youth or adult -- with any experience with a boy run troop. We learned in the school of hard knocks. But we have a pretty good troop going now. It still has some bugs to work out & has highs & lows, but has been a much better experience overall.

Correct. While working his way up to Eagle, they can each be counted...for example, Swimming might be counted as an Eagle required for Star, and Cycling might be counted as an Eagle required for Life. However, only one may be counted in the Eagle required for Eagle rank. The other may count towards elective MB's or towards a Palm after he gets his Eagle.

Our QM put together a list of "must haves" and went over it with each scout right before we left. That way, parents could make a quick run home for forgotten necessities. His must have list included rain gear, water bottles, books, uniforma (Field & activity), sleeping bag, medications, etc.

We did our "own thing" this year. It was exhausting, but well worth trying on occaision. We jumped through all the hoops on a council level to get it approved -- detailed driving plan, daily menus, daily itinerary, detailed information on all attending, etc.

We went to Montana and observed the reenactment of the Battle of Little Big Horn. We visited various battle sites & museums and camped on private property on the Crow Reservation along Reno Creek. We saw Devil's Tower & Fort Phil Kearny in Wyoming and went to the night ceremony & lighting at Mt. Rushmore. We cooked in camp and had pizza one night. It was AWESOME! I'd do it again...just not next year yet.

Yeah...Ma got activity & field reversed. Thanks for knowing what I MEANT, not what I said. I had just come off a 2-week intense Scouting period, & was rather bushed. (Over 1000 miles touring trip with the troop, followed by a concession stand where we turned over $4000 in receipts in two nights!)

First, I agree there is only ONE field uniform and ONE activity uniform. (Although in reverse of my earlier post. ) However, that isn't everyone's stand. Some people are perfectly content with just the shirt, paired with jeans or shorts. I don't feel it is my place to scold anyone about their choices. I will continue to model proper uniforming and school the troop I am affiliated with, but will stay out of other troops affairs.

Furthermore, I don't think it REALLY matters what we call them, as long as YOUR troop knows what you are talking about. (Yikes! I'd better watch out for some fallout from that statement.) I think it kind of goes along with "Uniform Policing".

Bottom line -- which is more important -- getting the terminology right or delivering a good program?

Gotta' run -- more Scout activities around the corner. I love this Scouting stuff! Ma

TDC every three years?!?!?! It doesn't change. Why take the same course over & over?

No to time limits on trainers, either. Sure, you'd get in new blood, but you'd lose some good blood, too. Natural attrition takes care of the ones who don't care to be there. Coupled with a DTC who doesn't invite the poor quality trainers back, you should be getting only the best.

Aahh...the "out of council" troops really DO get the "choice" campsites in our council! We can "reserve" our campsite for the next year if we make our reservations prior to leaving camp during the current year. I can't remember when we were last placed in the campsite requested...it always goes to "out of council" troops, and WE get the "left overs". Very true last summer...they put us in a campsite that hadn't been used in over a decade. We had to clean it and repair it before it was usable. We didn't have a trail in nor any outhouses within a reasonable distance. But in our council's eyes, that was okay, because we are in-council and "wouldn't mind". (Coincidentally, our troop is faithful about helping on Eager Beaver weekends and tries to do at least one other service project there per year. It is 3 1/2 hours each way to the camp.) I appreciate that we take care of our visitors, but to the point of neglecting our homeys? We didn't go back this year. Still did service, but went where they would take care of us.

We travel out of council every few years. First, for the reason Sir Scoutalot gives...the older scouts are bored with the same-o, same-o. Many of the larger troops in our council take their young scouts to the local camp & their older boy patrols to an out of council camp.