madkins007

Yeah, F-Scouter, I know. It isn't the end of the world, or even one of the top issues facing Scouting right now. It is not even a new issue, having been a bone of contention in one way or another for at least 40 years that I know of.

One could argue that things are different now- more pressure on recruiting and families, more competition for the spending money and free time. I am not sure I can sell that, however. Things were pretty tough in the 70's as well and Scouting survived.

I have to admit that one part of this is a personal hot button for me. I really, really hate being nickeled and dimed. I detest it when school sets us down in a tuition conference and tells us what the bill is going to be, then all year we keep feeding into the machine. Am I the only one that feels a creeping numbness/irritation when people start reciting lists of expenses?

I hate getting new glasses or cars and getting the total, then getting the litany for add-ons... and add-ons... and another... and another...

It ticked me off in volleyball when, after paying the fees and uniform costs, we kept getting hit for tourneys, for fundraisers, for admission fees...

I go to the Scout Shop for the uniform, then find I have to buy socks, handbook, neckerchief, slide, CSP, Unit Numerals, belt... Then I get hit for camping food, camping fees, new sleeping bag... summer camp, more uniforms... replace lost and worn gear... A full uniform may be important for a Scouting youth, but a full wallet or checkbook is CRITICAL for the Scout parent. It sometimes feels like it is SOMETHING at EVERY meeting!

Man, I LOVED it when I worked at a local Scout Shop and they did a 'package deal' for any troop or pack that worked with us- tell us your Scout's size and unit, and our staff would pull up a gear list and slap together the complete package, and add a 10% off coupon. We could tell you over the phone, to the penny, what the package would cost. For some of the larger units, we pre-bagged everything but the shirt and pants/shorts for even greater speed and simplicity.

It was a little thing, but there were no surprises, no sticker shock. It was the model our pack followed- one price for dues, no additional fees (other than a few pre-stated exceptions) period. (I already know that this would not work in a troop as well. Dang!)

We are trying to make it as a working family in the middle of the 'low income' range and we managed to fund pretty much everything, including a trip to Philmont. We made do, and my son always had a decent, complete uniform. It did not keep us away, and I know it is not a barrier to millions of other families.

That does not make it a good idea, fun, or even right. I strongly think that one aspect of any new platform of the BSA OUGHT to be a return to 'A Scout is Thrifty' and a softer financial impact on families.

My Ideal Handbook:

Based on a DayRunner-type notebook.

Sections that can be added or removed as the Scout progresses, or information is updated.

Sections could include: Basic Requirements, Merit Badge Requirements, Skills sections (first aid, knots, compass use, cooking, fitness, etc.)

Pages for troop information, uniform inspection, personal and unit calendar, tracking charts, finances, etc. Pages for positions could include meeting planning worksheets, BOR guidelines, G2SS condensed version, etc.

I'd love to see all manuals based on the same 'large pocket' sized system- Cubs, Cub Leaders, Patrol Leaders,...

Yet other sections would be "Welcome to Scouting", "Your Patrol", "History of the BSA", "The Cub Scout Story"...

I can see a situation in which the unit stocks a library of some of these sections, 'loaning' them to new Scouts or new members of a specific rank as the Scout graduates up.

Like the DayRunner system, you'd carry the parts you need, and have a storage organizer at home to hold the other sections, when you have enough to get to this point.

Simple software could create new, customized pages- MB classes, summer camp schedules, etc.

Of course, I'd also put it all in Adobe format as well for computers and most PDAs.

By the way- THANK YOU for the background info on the process! I applaud your efforts, even if I think the book is too thick, too full of pretty pictures, and too skimpy on skills data- that however is just my opinion.

In trying to research for Bob White's challenge, I discovered what has been posted before- the BSA is not very open about how it is run on the top levels.

I did discover that the Chief Exec. earns well over $300,000 for the job, putting him in the top pay range of charitable organizations.

I also found this article on the reknowned USSSP: http://usscouts.org/aboutbsa/bsaorg.html.

It cleared up a few things for me but does not quite answer the challange.

Typical costs associated with Scouting:

(Controlled by BSA)

Uniform shirt(s)

Unit T-shirt

Uniform accessories (neckerchief, belt, socks, nametag, etc.)

Uniform pants/shorts

Handbook

Scout camping fees, inc. summer camp and camporees

Registation, insurance

Boy's Life

Dues

(Not controlled by BSA)

Camping gear (lumped for convenience)

Other camping fees and admissions

Special event admissions

Food (camping, road, snacks, etc.)

Fair share of unit costs (usually paid via dues or fund-raising, including training, library, props, etc.)

Ok, now what of these items is REQUIRED for a Scouting experience? NOT what National says we need, but what we know from experience benefits a Scout and helps him have lifetime memories and values?

We don't need to compare ourselves against the military, sports, bands, etc. because it is comparing apples and aardvarks. They are not primarily there to provide character development through an outdoor program. Most of them do not operate all year on as many levels as we do.

What we OUGHT to be doing is to maximize the Scouting impact and minimize the overhead. A Scout is Thrifty. We are loosing numbers as the cost of living continues to climb. The pants would be just a small thin in the overall picture, but it would be a start.

It sounds like an interesting idea, but I'd approach it slightly differently- more like a stations event like ScoutNut said.

I'd be afraid that the 1-on-1 match might not mesh real well, and that it would not be a really great time for both the Webelos and the Boy Scout. Partnering/mentoring can be tough even in good times. I'd also want to make sure that both groups and all of the individuals got time of their own.

(This is based on the idea that your plan was ot team people up for extended periods. It was not clear if that is your plan or not!)

Other than that, my thoughts are:

Cooking- show off your troop skills and do something special. Have the Webelos help, certainly, but don't go with roasted wieners and s'mores. Of course, most Webs won't be excited by things too exotic, either, so find a good meal to impress'em with (especially the dessert!)

Activities- if you work with the Web DL (assuming this isn't you) you ought to be able to knock out a couple activity pins out there, as well as making sure ot just include time to have fun, explore, relax, etc.

Parents- they need to be there, but notnecessarily in the middle of things. Use the time to show them how the program is boy-run, what the job of a troop leader is, and generally to recruit them as well.

I think there are some concerns in several aspects of Scouting. I also think we'd have a hard time agreeing on them all.

I believe the BSA could use a solid, large-scale overhaul, but that is based more on the idea that ANY long-term program can benefit from taking a long, hard, fresh look at itself than because of any specific concerns.

Youth groups, heck. There have been scandals at the local, regional, and national levels of many non-profit groups. Remember the head of United Way being terminated several years ago for misappropriation of funds?

Churches/religions routinely overstate membership numbers and growth rates. Many denominations and religions today proudly claim to be the 'fastest growing', while independent audits show most are shrinking, even while claiming tremendous growth.

As for kids and electronics- I'd rather take a kid with electronics and have a willing participant than take one without and have a sullen heap.

I can ALWAYS work on them at the campsite to encourage them to tune into nature instead- if they are willing to work with me rather than smarling at me.

If we are going to use the old '60's' standards of camping (no music, no electronics), does this also mean we are going back to good old fashioned canvas packs and tents, flannel bags, and so on as well? If we are picking and choosing which technology applies today, WHO is the ultimate judge of what can and cannot be used?

Yeah, they are.

However, surely we can offer the benefits without the heavy overhead.

I can set a boy up for a 3-season weekend camp or a summer camp for a song by combining home-made gear, using alternative materials, etc. This is one of the most popular classes at Pow Wow.

We can rent stuff for backpacking or other higher expense activities.

We cannot do alternative methods with uniforming. We can't make our own, use look-a-likes, create a dress code, etc. Sure, we can do used, but that just means someone else paid full price.

We did strongly support full uniforms, and I wore full uniform but I remain unconvinced that the program the Scouts enjoy would suffer in any way if we did dress codes for the pants and offered some other options.

What Seattle said kinda ties in to the historic purpose of Scouting- in many ways, we are a 'turn-key' youth (boy) program for our COs.

Ideally, a group would decide they want a youth program abd basically 'buy' ours off the shelf, then use it to meet their needs. The Latter Day Saints are an example of 'tweaking' the program to fit their CO purposes.

In a way, we have a DUAL allegience, if things are done rihgt- the BSA AND our CO. If the CO decides 'no uniforms, chess only, etc., and the council gives them a charter, then the troop really ought to follow that plan.

While WE may not think of that as 'Scouting', if the council does that pretty much ends that.

In a truly boy-run troop, the people 'in the know' would be the PLs. I think you could find out pretty much what you want by talking to one of them.

Personally, instead of the 'Q&A' style, I'd just ask them to talk about the last campout, occasionally prodding him to describe the planning process, etc.

Ask him about what makes his patrol special and what they do during the year in general.

Watch the adults. The more adults are visible doing things, the less boy run it is (just as a general guide!) The closer you can get to the adult leaders sititng in the back of the room not moving a muscle (unless doing something like conferences, etc.) the better.

Your local hospital that serves disabled youth should be able to help- both with ideas and possibly even with equipment.

Part of the issue, however, is the child's own attitude. An understanding of our own real limitations and abilities is important- even if only so we can overcome them!

There is a lot of social reistance/inertia to making a lot of changes- who pays, who will be responsible for making, how can we accomodate all the different needs (sensory, cognative, behavioral, etc. all have different ramifications), how do you keep it fair...

Another option that does not fit OUR needs but might fit HIS are the camps designed for children with special needs, like Easter Seals runs. There, EVERY event is designed around the child's special needs and the staff is well trained.

"Its not the gift, its the thought that counts."

An enrollment gift is JUST a gift if you use it that way. Are you bragging "Join the Scouts and get a free knife!!!!", or are you saying "Join the Scouting Adventure!" then giving the knife later?

Are people joining for the gift then dropping out, like people do when they fake apply for credit cards just to get the freebie?

As a Webelos recruitment tool... that is well and good but our district stopped inviting Webelos- 'they detract from the main function'.

Our camporees are also run by the Council and District Camping Committees . The sheer size of our district means that camporees are always in one of three locations (none particularly exciting in and of themselves) and the logistics means that many ideas can't be done well.

(The committess DO often invite other groups to 'host' (read as: serve as sheer manpower for) camporees, such as the traditional Spring OA Camporee, but no one troop or even small coalition of troops runs'em.)

Again- I recommend doing it event by event. If the event promotes your units goals and purposes, go! If it does not and you have something better going on, skip it.

Would an anti-AP Hill ruling knock all state properties out as well?

If we had to move it, and decided against a rotational plan (which certainly has pros and cons), I still think the BSA should buy some land for this, and I still think that a recently abandoned base would provide a good starting point... which is an idea that had been promoted several times in this thread.

Heat and cold emergencies are part of the standard module for Red Cross Basic First Aid modules.

The BSA site offers

A Winter Safety press release (http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=by'>http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=by)

the OkPik winter camping guide

The Jambo guide (http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=by)

A quick not to any of the adventure bases in hot or cold climates should also net you some good stuff! I know Philmont has good stuff on it.

Alamo... Alamo...

Sorry- I don't remember ever hearing about that before.

Assuming they are over 10 years old, you just need to decide something- do you or don't you want them in the?

If not, simply do not accept the application. You do not have to accept everyone's. Politely suggest a different troop, perhaps explaining that you are just not prepared for these guys at this time.

If you do want them but are primarily concerned about winter camping safety, just set a policy that allows first-timers to go home instead of spending the night. Because of potentially dangerous temps and wind chills here (usually with little if any snow to help things) we have put this in place. We also have a series of pre-event meetings, such as the one they come to packed for a winter campout and we check the suitability of the gear.

I volunteer the great state of North Dakota.

Its about equally far from anyone, is nice and big, and its not like anyone's using it for anything else!

OK, ok- joking aside, I would suggest the area around Rapid City, South Dakota.

- If I remember correctly, there are bases in the area being closed

- Proximity to Mt. Rushmore, Badlands, Black Hills, and more

- Area is used to the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally, so theoretically can handle large, short-term influxes of people.

You know, if we were talking about most other businesses, all we'd have to do is to band together and start a new company to compete.

However, the BSA effectively squashed that option in the US. Here in one of the largest and most diverse counries in the world, we can only have ONE Boy Scout program while some other countries can run 2 or 3 at once.

This country is diverse enough that we cannot even agree on basic issues- partly out of human nature, but partly out of regional variation.

Take the outdoors focus. Hereabouts, the 'outdoors' is mostly fringe pieces of land unwanted for farming and most of our state parks are unashamedly geared for the needs of fishermen and RVers. Our Scouts get pretty tired of hitting the 4 or 5 good spots all the time, especially since they are pretty worn environmentally as well. This is not a land of big cities and concrete, just miles upon miles of crops and farms.

However, in other parts of the country, even neighboring councils, the outdoor opportunities thrive and are still a major calling card.

I think the current structure of the BSA tends to try to homogenize us all into one big melting pot- and it is just too much to hope for.

Bob,

I did not say anything about 503 whatevers. I have no idea what they are. That would have been Packsaddle (although it seems to have been NJCubScouter who started the 503 bit).

As far as the National Committee's structure and purpose, you are right. I don't know much about that, which is why I was asking.

I was simply trying to reconcile the idea of a seperate group of volunteers (as you have suggested) with what I had heard about many issues being determined by assembled groups from across the country.

The first version sounds like no Scouter has a say while what I had believed is that there is at least a crude form of prepresentation in place. Obviously the BSA can operate any way it wants, I just was curious as to what the process was.

If this does not clarify things, ignore it and lets return to the primary thread. I don't want to sow more confusion that I apparently already have.

Hey! We were in Wild River State Park in MN in late July/early Aug- right across the river! Cool!

Yet... even with our trunk full of electronics, I managed to find that barred owl as well (albeit a year later!), along with a wonderful chorus of (what else?) chorus frogs and such.

I don't think the difference between you and the guy watching TV is the electronics, I think it is the love of nature... and possibly your differing interpretations of 'roughing it'.

As a guy who works with people with a range of disabilities every day, I can offer a few of my own insights and thoughts to be taken for what they are worth.

Easily distracted? Minimize distractions at the BOR. A simple, calm room- maybe even lowered light. Soft music helps some, bothers others.

I have found that most people will deal with other people's disabilitys perfectly well- with a bit of pre-teaching. Check with dad for specifics but before the BOR let the members know a little background. As mentioned, focus on what the Scout can do. Suggest that only one person do most of the talking to minimize distractions and confusion. Dad should know if there are any specific ways to deal with things like distaction or focus if needed.

Ask the group to think about their questions- to ask them at an appropriate level, and to think about what they want to hear back with his typical responses in mind. With some of the guys I work with, a bright smile is about as good as it gets.

To be quite honest, I'd have no problem letting dad or one of the experienced leaders in the BOR. If the Scout needs a 'buddy' there, or if the experienced person is just quietly in the background to help the BOR understand things afterwards would depend on the exact situation.

I applaud you and your troops willingness to work with this situation. You will be rewarded for it!

cmarrero,

No, no no (shaking head sadly). The parents don't need 'to step up and help'.

They need to be made aware of their already existing obligations and how they can help the pack with their special skills and interests! This is a positive, good, and FUN thing! (OK, it is a transparent ploy, but often a subtle change of mindset really helps!)

Make sure you sign up FAMILIES, not 'Cubs'. Make sure each family knows the Law of the Pack- 'The Pack helps the Cubs Scout grow', and that they have a role in this that you will be happy to discuss with them at their convenience. "Oh, and be sure to fill this survey out- thanks! Oh, please just fill it out here. I appreciate that!"

I would not do it, but I would not dismiss the idea either.

I MIGHT suggest to the person who asked that they form a small committee to investigate the idea and to shop it around the pack to see what the consensus is.

I'd bet they back off it quickly, but they might well come up with another far better ideaa!

Aim to harness that creative energy!