madkins007

All of the leaders we got in our pack, we got using Bob White's and the BSA's method.

Specific invitations work. Begging, guilt trips, group invites, etc. don't.

Does this mean we had all the leaders we needed? Nope. None of our DLs had an assistant (but we made sure they all had Den Aides and we tried to keep the dens managable), and we had a heck of a time recruiting a new ACM to help the new CM as the old one rotated out.

Of course, neither did we have a big happy pack nearby. Most of us in this part of town were in the same boat.

OldGrayEagle makes an excellent point. To make solid, program improving suggestions, one must do some background work. What are the goals of the changes? What are the weaknesses of the current program? What is your evidence for the weakness or that the change will work?

I think the single biggest challenge in improving the program is the sort of thing we see here. Some of us defend the program as written pretty solidly. Others are quick to throw out pretty much any of it. Some of us like this section, others think it is the stupidest thing since camo smoke shifters.

We are a relatively small community, yet show a wide diversity of viewpoints. In the history of Scouter.com, other Scout forums, Roundtables, and Letters to the Editor in Scout-related magazines, no one has ever come up with a well-agreed upon large-scale systemic change the BSA 'should' make.

PLEASE do not take this to mean that we ought not discuss it anyway- this sort of give and take is where a lot of the best ideas come from!

Pack size sorta reminds me of church size.

Mega-churches just seem to keep on growing. You almost wonder if it is only because of the quality of the church program (which undoubtedly is a part of it), or just the American tendency to assume bigger is better, or the desire to want to join things that appear successful, etc.

Really big churches have plusses and minuses. They can offer more programs in many ways because they have so many resources and volunteers. Most mega-churches have more social and small-study groups than you can shake a stick at. They often run schools and professional-grade counselling, trips overseas, and more.

On the other hand- there is often a real lack of an interpersonal touch. Few members really know one another- it reminds me of the article about volunteerism and bowling mentioned in another thread- you exchange close interpersonal relationships for a more impersonal 'membership'. Of course, there is also the huge logistical issue in every aspect from parking to passing out communion.

Is a big pack better? Not automatically. But- it IS a strong sign that they are doing something right- probably a LOT of things right! If these were the only two packs I had to choose between, I'd go for #1. However, I'd prefer Pack (or troop) # 4 or 5- the one with about 30-50 Scouts having a great time, in which everybody knows everybody.

(Oddly enough- that is almost the same situation my son was in shopping for a troop. Big and strong, small and dying, or mid-sized and OK. He chose the big strong troop, and I watched the thing limp along like a wounded elephant as it struggled under a micro-managing SM who followed a pretty strong SM and staff- who then quit and was followed by an enthusiastic but 'outsider' SM who tried to get things going the BSA way and could not overcome the inertia from the previous SMs years at the helm. I REALLY wanted my son to go to the mid-sized troop, which is still doing great. Sigh.)

Scoutndad- thanks! BW made a comment about a ladder as well and I just was not sure where it came from. Suddenly there were all these ladders surrounding me! I wasn't sure which way to turn, I... I... I'm OK now. Whew!

By the way, FrankJ, I was just trying to give CA_Scouter ammo to convince the committee to pass on the idea. I don't have anything against it myself as long as the basic guidelines are solid!

While I personally am AGAINST the BSA's ban on atheists, I am also appalled by how far from "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (Bill of Rights, Article 1, part 1)we have come.

How does funding a Jamboree, which represents Scouts from hundreds of religious backgrounds, qualify as 'establishment of religion'?

Rhetorical question, of course. The current environment is the complete seperation of 'church and state', based on dozens of establishing legal precedents. I know, I know.

Lessee- we can't celebrate Christmas, Hannukah, or even Saturnalia in school or have ANY song with even the vaguest hint of religion in it. Even Santa is suspect. We can't have any sorts of blessings at any school event.

And yet... our money still says 'in God we trust' and some school districts are forced to teach some form of 'creation science'.

Aw, the heck with it. Why don't we just go back to changing the site every cycle, or just buy a chunk of land near Philmont or Irving TX. I really don't want National spending millions more of our hard-earned dollars fighting this too.

Personally, I think the smart answer is for the BSA top managment to visibly begin to systematically excise all the rot out of the system. Audit councils aggressively, and remove leadership (council, regional, or national) that played a role in the problems. Hire independent auditors to supervise the process.

Make a bit of media noise- a sort of quiet, dignified 'we found some troubling issues and are dealing with them decisively' sort of release that highlights the aggressiveness and open nature of the treatment process. Use good soundclips and videos to make a nice big splash.

Do this BEFORE it is forced upon them- beat the lawyers and media to the punch and reclaim the moral high ground.

re: finances- after some shenanigans earlier in our pack, when we took over, we included a bit about an annual outside audit to be done by the CO's treasurer (with their permission, of course). Our own people never played with the books, but the monthly statement and annual audit made everyone feel a little better.

It's Me- I ABSOLUTELY agree that a lot of the requirements in Cubs are significantly less fun today than they were in the past. Cubs USED to have to build crystal radios! How cool is that?

I collect Cub books from around the world (mostly English-speaking countries) and history (pretty much a complete set of those!) I think we have a GOOD program now, but one that stand some serious renovation. When I compare what we do now with Cubbing in the 60's, or British Cubbing, I sometimes drool over the possibilities!

I quoted them right out of the first pages of the Insignia Guide (you'll find it in almost any edition of the booklet).

I had a complete copy of the Rules and Regulations that I found in a pile of odd stuff at our local Scout Shop years ago. I don't know if they still print them that way though.

In Cub Leader Basic Training, I was at one point trying to change our 'Uniforms' module from 'how to be technically accurate' to 'why uniforms?'.

I was planning on showing a picture of an adult in civvies, a similar adult in a 'half uniform', and a leader in full uniform, then asking the people in the class the following questions:

- Which person would you most likely trust your own children to?

- Which person is most invested in the program?

- Which person do you think understands the Scouting program better?

- Which person is most likely to know how to deal with varius issues that might come up in Scouting?

- Which one do you feel would offer your Scout a better, more enjoyable experience?

...and so on.

Then, show three youth in the same types of clothing and ask:

- Which boy do you think will go the furthest in Scouts?

- Which boy has the most family support?

- Which boy will earn rank the fastest?

Afterwards, discuss how much of the judgement they made off clothing ALONE with no other cues and how much the images affected their perceptions. Discuss how their perceptions are not necessarily correct, of course, but this is the power of uniforming. Then use that foundation to discuss other uniforming issues.

Unfortunately, we never got the chance to try it!

The 'offical' patrol flags are pretty boring, but better than nothing- barely!

Make'em! Turn it into a contest, do it at a camp, make it part of the national patrol award program, whatever!

Bob White- I guess I'm having another brain blip, but I can't seem to recall or find my using the term 'ladder'. I'm not trying to be sarcastic or cute (for once), just feeling a little befuddled (also not a new sensation!)

As for the 'only those not following the program complaining' bit, I beg to differ. I tried hard in our pack, along with a core of other dedicated leaders, to make the program work as advertised. We varied rarely from the proscribed program and watched our 50+ year old pack go from near death before we got involved, grow to about 35 youth, then dwindle again as we fought to recruit youth and leaders, to overcome being attached to a stagnant troop and a nearly invisible CO, and other local difficulties.

We fought district and council level problems of being ignored, being shuffled between three districts as they redrew district lines, having DE's dump kids on our charter that he claimed he personally signed up but we never saw.

I was the district training chair and fought to offer the very best training in the council- even when I had to fight the SE against some of his less bright ideas. We struggled to get all of our leaders to training- paying their way and offering babysitting even. I attended every Roundtable, Pow-Wow, camp, etc. to promote training, etc. Ran Pow-Wow sessions and almost single-handedly wrote a Pow-Wow book. Cub Trainer Wood Badge, Philmont Training Center, etc., etc., etc.- a pretty normal resume for many of us Scouters here.

We experimented with some things in the pack- the way we ran Pinewood, trying to create our own advancement ceremonies with a touch of consistancy, rethinking B&G, and finding an alternative way to deal with the iron-on Tiger Paws that did not stick well enough (until you learned the tricks)... but our only real change to the actual BSA Cub Scout Program was not checking the blue pants the Cubs wore for a BSA label (they usually used their nearly identical school uniform pants).

At last check, the pack (nearly 9 years later) has not had over 15 boys since I left (not trying to take any credit for the earlier growth, but I also do not feel any need to take any blame for the dwindling) and currently has about 7, and the troop has been a 'paper' troop for a few years now.

Who to blame? No one specifically, but parts of the problem include:

- Shifting local demographics as the school, church, and neighborhood went from youth-heavy to older and younger couples with less income.

- School, church, and CO (we basically worked with all three about equally) facing their own problems and having little time or energy left to help us (but not shy about asking the pack to do various jobs around the place, which we usually did willingly and cheerfully.)

- District and council support that usually appeared to be more focused on things that brought in money than actually helping units. Even the commish staff was suffering.

- Societal issues that made it increasingly difficult to get new leaders.

- Competition from other programs that may not have been as much fun, but had better parental support and made more demands. (Soccer was a big one- they had 3 practices a week and if you miss one you don't play in the coming game. Parents also shelled out more money for soccer, so it usually won when push came to shove.)...

- and a Cub Scout program with several built-in glitches that needlessly contribute to the leakage.

I'm NOT saying our leadership was blameless. I'm just saying that if we tried as hard as we did and could not make it work, then what did we miss?

I DO believe the program as written is good, but I also believe it is very hard for the average person in the average unit to impliment in our society as it exists now. Just because it is good now does not mean it cannot be better, stronger, easier to impliment, more effective at producing the desired results.

What on EARTH would a unit do with $150,000?

*sniff, sniff* Does something smell... 'funny'... to you?

SR540Beaver- "Madkin, Fair value? Have you checked the price of Trails End popcorn lately?"

Sigh. Yeah. Do you REALLY want to hear my opinions of THAT here?

Gee... I wonder what it says about Texas and places south when even the ARMADILLOS are trying so hard to escape?

There are several big issues in today's society that affect MANY organizations like the Scouts- overall reduction in volunteerism, reduction in charitable giving, etc.

As far as 'overstretched' or over-scheduled people goes, that may be a part of it, but I also think that many of these oganizations make it increasingly hard to be a volunteer.

I've had to drop out of several groups I was associated with over the last several years for different reasons. One instituted a 'minimum hours' requirement. Another added a 'mandatory classes' requirement and then scheduled the classes at bad times for me (to make things worse, I had been a volunteer there for year and had indeed taught these classes in the past. If I took time off for the classes, they did not seem worth the effort.)

Another made us sign liability waivers. Now- I don't mind that much, but they were sneaking in clauses that excused even negligence and such on the part of the organization or staff. I'm perfectly willing to take my chances with nature or the risks of the position, but if they injure me or cause me to be injured, I want to be able to recover my real losses.

Another thing I notice now is that I get very little 'us' time with my spouse. My parents just kicked us out of the house for hours at a time when they wanted some privacy ("See ya when the street lights come on! Have fun!") We don't do that much anymore. If we get little 'us' time, we get almost NO 'me' time. If I volunteer, out of which bank does a big chunk of that time come? Yep- bye bye 'me' time!

I KNOW some of our parents thought something like 'hey, I wanna help, but I also want some time apart from the little rascal... er, I mean, darling!'

I think there are other issues, but the bottom line is I think you are right- fewer volunteers in most groups, at ANY level of quality or training.

However, I DO think that PART of the problem is indeed our program. It may only be a small part, but I think that we could make it a LOT more attractive to potential volunteers.

Bob White said "We have mechanisms in place now that work when used. If some people will not follow them then what is gained by changing the mechanisms?"

You do not get out of a rut by digging deeper in the same place. I agree that the basic mechanisms are sound- but if they are not being followed, we need to try something different- either changing the mechanisms OR something around the mechanisms.

To use your example of the baseball team- improving or replacing the players are not your only options. You can change the leadership, the coaching/teaching staff, the amount of community or league support, etc. Considering that attendance to baseball has been declining for years, you might also consider changing the very rules involved- maybe improve things for everyone.

Maybe the 'leaky pipeline' really has nothing to do with Cubs or Boy Scouts. Maybe it has more to do with the problems of delivering the program well from National down to each individual Scout. And maybe, just maybe... the blame is not the unit leaders.

Hey! We have a troop like that in our council too! Big, obnoxious, acts priviledged or above the rules at camp and camporees. Ours churns out bunches of merit badges but oddly, the leaders rarely show up at training or roundtable.

I'd bet the troop's own council already knows them, and has already done pretty much all they are going to do. Frankly, there is not much they can do.

I'd suggest you let it go- except as a gentle reminder to your own Scouts about the right ways to act and how you appear to others.

From the BSA's Ten Guides to Money-Earning Projects:

"Even when sales are confined to parents and friends, will they get their moneys worth from any product they purchase, function they attend, or services they receive from your unit? Here again is the principle of value received a sale standing on its own merit - so that the recipients are not in any way subsidizing either Scouting of the member. Youth members must learn to pay their own way and to honestly earn the money to do it. You cannot permit anyone to capitalize on a Scouting connection or induce sympathy as a substitute for a worthy product or service."

and

"Is it reasonably certain that people who need work or business will not lose it as a result of your units plan? Your unit should neither sell nor offer services if by so doing it will damage someone livelihood. If possible check with the people who may be affected."

If the work crews are taking business away from other people who need the work, it ought to be reconsidered. In my neighborhood, this would conflict with several families whose kids earn their summer money doing this, as well as a few retired guys hiring out for yardwork.

The next question refers to the first quote- are the Scouts getting FAIR VALUE for their effort? That means not being ripped off OR getting over-paid. It is my experience that most Scout work crews work their tails off for what ends up to be a pittance for the man-hours involved.

Now- on the other hand, I'd see this as a GREAT service project for the people you mentioned- handicapped, elderly, etc.

Look for the book "Great Fundraising Ideas for Youth Groups" by David and Kathy Lynn. Available at Amazon.com and most bigger church supply bookstores. Some of the ideas are not consistant with the Scouting fundraising philosophy* (pass those ideas on to your sports team!) The book claims to have '6 quick and easy ways to raise $1,000!'

(*- OK, an example of a great but 'not for the BSA' idea in the book is 'fundraising insurance'- give us a set amount ($20-40) and we won't come to you with any other fundraiser for a year. Another idea is having adults run classes to teach their skills, and splitting the class fees between the meeting place, teachers, and youth group.)

Sorry I can't share more ideas, but this is one of the books I donated to the pack library when I moved on.

"How many activities, and what kind, do you do with the other Dens of the same rank?"

Depends on your situation. If you end up with 2 other dens scattered over a large area, you might not be able ot hook up very often.

I think the better question is 'how often do the Den Leaders of the various dens meet up, even if only by phone, to coordinate plans?' You ought to be working off the same annual planning calendar (a great tool for year-around planning) so you ought to be on about the same page most of the time.

However, there is nothing to stop you from joining forces when it makes sense- Pinewood Derby workshops, trips to 'Cub Day' at a local sporting event, coordinated assault (er, I mean VISIT) to the zoo or museum, a big Webelos Picnic, etc.

As for splitting them up, I think geographically sounds right in your situation. Any youth on borders can be dealt with by a simple meeting of the DLs.

Bob White- I agree with you totally... but I wonder- from what I have seen in the records, the losses have been occuring at about the same places (except, obviously, for Tigers) for years- since at least the 70's and probably earlier as well.

If the same basic leaks have existed for years, even with several changes in the programs, etc., can we reasonably expect that things will improve by basically telling people to follow the program more tightly?

I believe that in an ideal world, the program would run wonderfully if it were followed correctly (sounds sorta like a Walgreens commercial- "In the town of Perfect...") but in the real world, I am wondering if we don't need to consider some other mechanism for program improvement.

My nickel's worth is...

1.) Get trained, and invite as many other semi-interested people as possible to join you.

2.) Tell the CM that you NEED fewer boys in your den and the committee will have to help locate another DL. Do not make the mistake of adding 'or they'll have to find a replacement for me as well', etc. As they add families, they NEED to add leaders as well or face real problems.

3.) Help everyone understand that the den leadership SHOULD be distributed over the DL, an Assistant DL, a Den Aide, the Den Chief, and the Denner and Assistant Denner. By using these positions well, you greatly reduce your burden and make the job a LOT more fun for EVERYONE! (Training and the Cub Leader manual help explain the various roles.)

Depending on exactly how the tent is configured, you can also try running a 'clothesline' between the upright poles, and using that and the corner flap tie-ups to support the netting.