madkins007

Emb021-

I've seen a lot of 'spoof' shirts of one type or another at various places- and I think it is great... as long as they wearer knows what in the heck they are doing.

I've seen them worn at things like Philmont Training Center, Pow-Wow, roundtables, and even training sessions.

One guy wears a shirt as wrong as can be- whole row of CSPs sewn on in a big roll-up bundle on one sleeve, every Quality Unit award for a decade... and he wears it into training, 'coincidentally' just as the uniform segment starts.

Lots of people I've met at Roundtable wear one or two- our RTs are pretty relaxed, almost crackerbarrel-ish- and it is just fun- since you also are pretty sure the same people do not wear them to unit meetings, etc.!

My own 2 cents- as a nature trail enthusiast...

1. Pointing out that this is a sugar maple and this is a pin oak is OK, but I enjoy 'the rest of the story'- many of these things have rather cool reasons behind the names, or played a role in history, or have some fascinating story to tell- even if it just mnemonic devices to help re-identify the thing later.

2. Besides the names of plants, a bit of history is always fun. Locally, there is a nature center with an old DOCUMENTED hermits home in it- the stories for that site are great! Another trail has an area that was the backdrop for a WWII machine gunning training site.

3. Try to mix things up- things up high, down low, big, small, funny, serious, ancient, new...

4. Imagine the trail, if you will, like a story. An introduction, chapters, segueways, peaks and valleys in the telling, building to a climax, then easing back and allowing a nice smoth re-entry to the 'other' world outside the trail.

It may sound kinda tough, but this is how the best trail guides I know do things. They have mental 'index cards' of stories they tell as they guide, pulling out the right card for the right time.

Take Ironwood as an example...

Mnemonic device in the late fall and winter- the young tree keeps its reddish, RUSTY-looking leaves until spring.

Economic impact- this tough wood dulls axes quickly- when you see a large stand of it, it could mean that the easier to cut trees had been removed at one point. It is also used for durable fenceposts, tool handles, etc.

Other name- Hop Hornbeam, because of the 'hoppish'-looking fruits in the spring.

History story (unverified)- The Mayflower landed at Plymouth Rock out of desperation- they needed water. They planned to head further south to warmer places, but dehydration drove them to land ASAP. Remember that all surface water in their homelands was at least partially contaminated by poor waste management, and that most water was treated for safety- often by being mixed with some form of alcohol.

Well, the pilgrims needed water, soon. They did not really trust the clean, flowing water they found, but they DID find Hop Hornbeam and tried to make beer from that. Supposedly, a brewery was the first building built.

By the time they realized that Hop Hornbeam may LOOK like hops but does not make good beer, they a.) found the water to be safe, b.) learned how to make beer from corn, and c.) had waited too long to move so were stuck for the winter.

Wear it on one's spoof shirt?

I've put them on my 'trophy jacket' and I admit to having used Velcro on my Trained strip so I can swap it for an 'Over-Trained' strip when I did training classes once or twice. It was pretty much a private joke since no one seemed to notice!

Our pack and troop charged dues up front. As the year went on, some of the fundraisers paid into individual unit accounts that could be used for dues, summer camp, or some other unit-related expenses.

In Cubs, this included the den dues/expenses. In the troop, it did not.

In both cases, we ran it past the parents to see their preferences. Most of them preferred to pay the full ride up front and not depend so much on trying to keep track of weekly dues, lots of fundraisers, etc. This way, it was a family's option to help fundraise for many of the events.

It also ensured us cash flow from the beginning. Most units need a bigger chunk of money this time of year, and if you wait for dues or fund-raisers to cover it, you'll often be cash-poor.

My experience has been that we averaged less than 1 major 'hold out' each year using this method.

(There is a whole range of 'spoof' patches, Interpreter Strips, knots, merit badges, etc. that can be had if so interested. Besides English, there is also Klingon, Computerese, Southern Drawl, and more.)

You can talk to your DE about this also. They might be able and willing to waive the date requirement, assuming all other requirements were met.

You can try a spoof patch as a semi-gag, semi-honor if the CM is that kind of person.

My understanding is:

If/when you get sued-

1.) Your own insurance company is the first pocket.

2.) The BSA insurance kicks in secondly to cover you IF you followed the rules. It is, I have been told, a supplimental policy.

Our Scouter Services person tells the story of two groups of Scouts heading to Philmont in seperate years. Both are involved in a terrible collision.

One group is covered by the BSA since they completed a proper Tour Permit and it was documented that they followed the rules. The other, unfortunately, was not since they did not file a permit.

For those who wish to revert to an earlier version of the Pledge, here are some options:

What Bellemy wanted to write:

I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all.

[Note: he knew the word 'equality' would not be welcome since neither women nor blacks- nor others- were considered equal at the time.]

Original published version, Sept 8, 1892:

I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

1st Revision, Oct. 11, 1892:

I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

2nd Revision, June 14, 1923:

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.

3rd Revision, June 14, 1924:

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.

4th Revision, June 14, 1954:

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.

Personally- I like his preferred version!

Henk- Just for my own curiosity, what difference does it make grammatically if there is a comma between "One Nation" and "Under God"?

The comma is usually placed to indicate a slight pause, and we tend to read the Pledge in a series of short bursts- probably at least in part because it is easier to read ANYTHING in a group in shrt bursts.

It is usually spoken:

I pledge allegience

to the flag

of the United States

of America

and to the republic

for which it stands

one nation

under God

indivisible

with liberty

and justice

for all

Its a nice rythym and flows. When a person in our unit made a similar comment and we tried to recite the 'one nation under God' bit in one phrase, it sounded choppier. Personally, I also feel it gives a bit more emphasis to 'under God' this way- less slurred.

FScouter pointed out "The not-so-new award requirements were published in the 2003 printing of the Leadership Training Committee Guide."

Yeah, but the requirement list I used was from my new *2005* Scoutmaster's Handbook. I know this happens all the time in the BSA (LOTS of documents to keep up to date!) but it is still a bit irksome.

9. Do ONE of the following:

a. Attend a world jamboree.

b. Take part in an international event in your area.

c. Visit with a foreign exchange student and discuss his or her country and customs.

d. Study a foreign language for a year.

e. Write an embassy or consulate for material about its country and discuss the material with your counselor.

f. Examine a particular international issue and give a brief oral presentation and a written report to your counselor.

I don't see any reason why the National Jamboree could not count for 9b as he asked. (It was a little awkwardly phrased, with the 9a bit, but he goes on to ask about 9b.)

I would LOVE that!

(PS, I DID get the CD, and Ging Gang IS NOT on it, darn it all!)

Anyway, my e-mail is mad90kins9007@c9ox.c9om (omit the '9's'- they are there to confound spammers!)

Thanks very much!

And just FYI- if you do a search in a peer-to-peer sharing network for Boy Scout MP3's, you'll get a lot of stuff you probably don't particularly want to listen to!

Gotta disagree Ed... if a kid does not say the pledge, they are being different, and that is not a major goal of kids in school. There is a lot of subtle and unsubtle pressure to conform.

I'm a devout Christian, but I really wish the government would make up its mind. Religous expresion OK or not? If not, remove it from the money and Pledge. They added it to both at one time or another- it was not mandated by God or even a popular vote of the people. It can be removed.

For crying out loud, the entire Pledge was the result of a Baptist minister, and it was only slowly adopted into society. It was not commisioned by the people, or enacted as the direct action of our government. Written in 1892, it was not even accepted as 'official' until 1942 and the 'under God' bit added in 1954.

In looking this stuff up, I noticed that the original author WANTED to include 'equality', but dared not at the time since it was a hot topic.

Perhaps it is time to tweak the Pledge again, drop 'under God' and insert 'equality'.

"I pledge allegance to the flag

of the United States of America*,

and to the republic for which it stands,

one nation, indivisible,

with liberty, justice, and equality for all."

(*- Heck, even this line is a fairly late addition!)

You mean like newsletters, etc.?

Our pack used a single-page handout, given out at the end of each meeting. You could have it mailed if you pre-paid the mailing costs.

This worked OK, especially if we could announce something over several handouts so it could not be missed if someone misplaced a flyer. It takes some thought to design a flyer/newsletter that people will actually READ.

Our troop did postcards. This was a mixed hit. The print tended to be REALLY small, and they did not always arrive well or on time, but most people watched for them and responded well.

We also had a website that seemed to get upgraded after summer camp, and not otherwise. In fact, at one point, no one knew who had the mail box password!

SWScouter-

I would not say that our council had (and maybe still has?) an 'implimentation problem' with the CS awards. The way they did it kept people happy and I doubt there were very many abuses... especially since the average leader did not know that there was not a lot of checking going on behind the scenes. Besides- the office really had (has?) no way of verifying much of the info on the card. Requirements such as helping with Pinewoods or Sports and Academics, coordinating den activities, taking part in overnighters, etc.- none of this is recorded in any way at the office.

In fact, in the pre-ScoutNet and early 'buggy' phases of the ScoutNet computer system (when I worked there), a LOT of Cub Scouting was not tracked by the office. No official, on-going record was kept of much a pack's activities beyond registations and AOL info. (This stuff was needed for Eagle and other purposes.) There was just SO MUCH of the stuff coming in that no one could keep it up to date.

Even for the Boy Scout awards, there was (is?) less checking than some people might think. It was certainly possible to pull Roundtable records to verify the 6 meetings requirement, or to pull MB records to verify that you counseled 5 youth, but no one did- no one had the time to do it for every candidate for every award. They spot-checked, talked to committee leaders, etc. Other requirements, again, were not recorded in the office in any way. One DE told me, at least partly tongue in cheek, that they don't really do much beyond making sure the form is filled out correctly for some of the knots.

As for YOUR earning the BS knots- good luck, and I hope you have as much fun getting them as I did mine!

FScouter- It does not surprise me that they changes some requirements again- after all, I JUST bought a new SM handbook and it had the stuff I listed in it! Figures that as soon as I upgrade, I'm still behind the curve- it works with my computers, too!

AwHeck- yeah, I sympathize. Some positions get a lot of recognition and hoopla, some don't. I have long suspected that the BS Leader's 'advancement program' was geared largely to get adults involved in the district and council levels.

I like the idea of mixing things up as well, and this forum and the Web are a galaxy of resources!

Hobo camp- tarps, bedrolls, tin can cookery, hobo stoves... Variations include shipwreck camp (using random stuff 'found on the beach', placed by leaders who do not compare notes); shoebox camping- everything has to fit in a shoebox (except maybe a sleeping bag), etc.

Cooking Challenges- solar cooking, utensiless cooking, Iron Chef (bring out some stuff, then challenge all patrols to use a secret ingredient in most dishes served), 'no cooler' challenges, 'portable feast' (each patrol or group prepares part of a meal- appetizer, soup, etc., Eat as a big group, course by course.) Make cake and ice cream for a camping birthday or other event.

Make your own tents (search for 'pyramiddle' for an interesing option! Hammock camp (some units swear by this!) Sleep under the stars a night (we did this as a youth during a meteor shower- a wonderful memory to this day!)

Orienteering- hide the food for supper at the checkpoints- include a special treat at one.

Reintroduce old skills- tracking, trailing, stalking, signalling, marbles, boomerangs, yo-yos...

Create a troop 'jug band'. Bring supplies to make marshmellow shooters. Find a re-enacter or member of the Society for Creative Anachronism to visit your camp. Have the patrols each bring the camp ranger or manager (especially the live-in people) a food gift they made- maybe invite them to a campfire with songs and skits- new faces make a difference!

Find some long-term projects to work on at meetings or camp- tatting a hammock, making lanyards, leathercraft projects like belts or Handbook covers...

A few thoughts...

1.) In our unit, a boy cannot be elected to a position without being at the meeting, unless he had previously made his interest known. (We actually had boys 'announce' their interests a couple weeks before any election- campaing flyers and all!)

2.) At 13.5 and/or as a Star Scout, he should have seen situations like this before. Learning how to deal with them is a part of growing up. Our job as leaders and parents sometimes is helping boys deal with things better.

3.) What does your son want to happen at this point? Would he want a new election (there are some real downsides to that, but if the elected boy is not doing the job or does not really want it, this is a valid option- especially if he was not there.)

4.) Any thought on what the other members of the patrol think? I'm curious as to why 'Ralph' was able to sway a majority to doing something that seems so dumb on the surface of it. Is it possible that the others did not want your son for some reason? Certainly it is entirely possible that 'Ralph' is just both jealous and a smooth talker.

5.) I appreciate that you are conflicted. This shows that you are considering several aspects of the situation rather than just charging in. I also appreciate that even though you are involved enough to go for WB you are still working the chain of command.

6.) My bottom line- I think I'd talk to my son. Get a feel for what he wants and then work with him and the unit to make it happen. Does he just want 'Ralph' off his back? There are ways to accomplish that goal. Does he want a POR? Most units have ways to make this possible between elections (ours does not elect certain positions, but rather appoints them- QM, Den Chiefs, etc.)

I got concerned when you said the COR was on the TC's side- the COR and the CC can install and remove pretty much without anyone else's OK according to the way things are supposed to work.

Of course, a SMART CC and COR will consider input carefully before acting.

I've worked with people like you described. One woman especially is an incredible resource for Scouting skills, but a lot of people really can't stand her. I stopped asking her to help with Cub Leader training because of input from trainees about her style.

But... her success rate was phenomenal as well, and the Scouts in her unit love her. To me, this is the real bottom line.

I think I'd sit down with the CC and COR in a small, informal meeting (I'd do it over supper out somewhere) and present your side, and listen to their concerns.

If the CC is being beseiged by comments like 'I'll quit if I have to deal with her again', the CC grows quite upset. In our situation, the CC was getting exactly those kinds of statements from other adults who found our 'thorn' abrasive and legalistic.

Does the CC understand how the boys feel? Does the CC see all she contributes behind the scenes, etc.? Is the 'thorn' too visible (attends every meeting, etc.- ours did!)? Are the conflicts happening in specific situations (ours were mostly curing TC meetings).

Get some info and share some info. Look for common ground and special areas of concern.

It might be that you (or someone how can speak to her well) can go to the 'thorn' and talk with her. Share the basic concerns, suggest she avoid committee meetings (especially if the committee does not generally include ASMs, etc.) or other potential situations.

FYI- Our thorn was incredibly affronted by the suggestions that some people found her awkward to work with. She threatened to quit, was furious that SHE was being talked to instead of the 'newcomer upstarts' on the TC, etc., etc., etc. She FINALLY agreed that it would be best for the entire unit and for her if she let other people step up to run the troop and let her focus on working weith advancement and Scout skill training.

She shifted her focus more and more to the district and council levels, which made a lot of the TC happy... but I kinda missed her!

I did not realize that the OA election process (or other secret ballot processes) forbade discussion of the vote afterwards. I know you cannot talk about many aspects before or during in order to minimize undue influence on the voting process, but I was unaware that it was to remain inappropriate to discuss afterwards.

Just curious!

SWScouter- Oh, come on- let's fight (like gentlemen, of course!)

I chose the BS Leader's Training Award for my example because to earn the SM Key you have to earn this first. I chose the CM knot randomly, but the Cub knots all have similar requirements.

You can earn a CS knot without leaving your unit other than attending 4 RTs or a single longer supplimental training event.

For the BS award, of the 12 options, 8 of them involve work outside your unit, either in other units or on district, council or national levels. (OK, I'm pushing this a bit by treating the MB Counselor as an 'outside' position and that is not necessarily the case!)

I don't know how they do it in other councils, but in ours, when I worked in the office, the district sign-off part of the CS knots could be signed by the Scouter Services people, or even by the shift manager in the store. A leader could (and still can) bring a form in and walk out with the knot in hand. You cannot do that (here) with the BS awards which have to be processed first. Also, locally, the CS knots can be awarded by the pack or the district, however the unit wants to do it. Last I knew, the BS awards were only done at the district dinner.

Confession time: I can't figure out what the third knot you mention for SMs is, unless you are refering to one of the merit awards.

So, having earned the CM and CS awards, and the Training Award and Key, it is my opinion that the CS awards are a piece of cake and the BS awards are more of a challenge.

HOWEVER- like I said, this is comparing apples to oranges. I think both CM and SM are challenging jobs, neither easier than the other, but they are worlds apart in what they require and what their goals are.

Personally, I think the Cub Scouts are treated a bit shabbily by the BSA in general. I think even a lot of BS leaders look down just a bit on CS leaders and folk, even as they depend on them to produce new Scouts. CS outnumber both BS and Venture almost 2 to 1, bring in more than their fair share of the money, provide the BS with most of its boys and leaders, and still gets treated like the unwelcome little brother too often.

So, I think it is PERFECTLY fair that they get a heap of knots. It is, in many ways, the least the BSA can do for them!

Word of mouth is THE best advertising. Every advertiser knows this and works hard to increase it.

Talk with your guys in semi-private and find out if they know anyone they can invite. See if you can find some way to motivate them to invite their buddies. We USED to do 'buddy camping' when I was a Scout years ago (invite a buddy on a campout usually with the troop covering his share of the costs. I assume that today you'd need to invite a parent along as well) but see what you can do to support your guys in this effort.

Your DE OUGHT to have lists of interested folk from your zip-code from many sources, including ex-Scouts as mentioned. This can be a useful resource.

You may want to re-think your recruiting activiites. I hate to say this but squishing apples and riding stationary bikes does not sound like my idea of a 'high time'.

Is there perhaps a local, busy store that you can put a recruiting booth outside? If so, can you think of things to do at the booth that would make people stop and look? Dutch oven cooking is always good (sights, smells, tastes- the more senses you can capture the better!), as would be some sort of simple contests or activiites- crossing a monkey bridge (over pads or soft ground), name the knot, patch display, give-a-ways (pencils, stickers), rope making, 'odd' cooking techniques (eggs in orange shells, biscuits on a stick, cooking in paper bags, solar oven...)...

Who is the CO? Do THEY have any youth? We ARE supposed to be THEIR youth program, but it is amazing how often their kids somehow slip past us!

Tough situation, Seattle! Good luck!

1. Make no threats and immediately stop making group recruiting announcements.

2. Start working the resources. Any leader material ANYWHERE in the pack? Any last year's Web DLs or other 'old' DLs that might come back? Any recommendations for people to ask? (your old Tiger leader should know which parents seemed vaguely interested and able). Any interested grandparents or uncles or old enough siblings? Anyone in the CO interested? Aim for 5-6 good candidates.

3. Figure out not only who to ask, but who should do the asking. Who is your best adult recruiter OR who is the best to speak to your specific top choices.

4. The 'asker' should contact each person and explain what the pack would like and why they specifically were chosen- how their skills or personality seems like a great fit. Also, be honest in what the job takes. Tell them you expect training and uniforms, but that the pack helps (with whatever parts the pack helps with) and it does not have to happen right now. By the way, this seems to go best on 'neutral' territory (restaraunt) or the 'victims' home.

5. Once asked, I strongly suggest at least a 24-48 hour cooling off period before getting a solid answer. Better a leader who talked themselves into it than one who was convinced then regreted it.

6. Once they say yes (and be sure to ask all candidates, use the others as ADLs, etc.), get then Fast Start Trained before the next meeting, help them get at least a minimal uniform, and make a HUGE deal out of it at the next meeting- introducing them (and the other leaders) and so on.

7. Be supportive and protective of your leaders. Make sure they are not spending too much of their own money, running into snags you can help with, have back-up plans for days they can't run a meeting and so forth. Don't embroil them in endless meetings, or tedious planning or training sessions. Get them to as many FUN district/council events as possible- like Pow-Wow. Make them REALLY, REALLY glad they volunteered and have you on their side. (This won't help right now, but it makes getting next year's group easier!)

I was talking with some co-workers about this issue and why their sons were not in Scouts. I got some interesting feedback.

"My son was in Cubs for a while, but dropped out because it got boring for him. He never showed much interest past that."

[Experienced Scouters can guess what year this happened- between late Bear and early Webelos. Cubs does a great job of recruiting, but their drop-outs rarely re-enter the program.]

"My son just never showed much interest. He prefers (fill in the blank with sports, video games/computer, or hanging with friends)."

(Q: Did you know Scouts do (fill in the blank)?

A: either 'No, but..." or "yes, but..." and the 'but' is usually things are OK now, why add an activity.)

"Our school doesn't sponsor a unit."

{Q: how about your church?

A: We don't really do church.

Q: Have you seen any of the ads asking you to call the Scout office to help find a unit?

A: (depending on the respondant) "Yeah, but I never think of it by the time I got home" OR "no, there's a Scout office?")

[it had not occured to me that in our city, few public schools sponsor units, either directly or via the PTA. For the most part, we advertise in schools and churches. With the decline in church memberships, where will they hear about us?]

"You know- it just never came up."

Of the people I talked to (15 or so over the last several days), only 1 had a boy in Boy Scouts, and he had dropped out last year after about a year. He was in a decent troop, but he was still uninterested anymore. 2 others had boys in Cubs at one time. 1-in-5 (3 out of 15) is a bit below the usual 1-in-4 we traditionally can accomplish- but not too bad for a small sample size.

None mentioned any scandals or philisophical issues- but there also has not been any coverage of Scouting around here lately so I don't know if that had an effect or not. With this group- probably not.

I asked about the 'overprogrammed' bit and most of them laughed- saying they WISH their sons had more to do to get them out of the house or the group they hang out with. Oddly- some of these were the same ones who were happy with the 'status quo' around the house from an earlier answer. When asked to clarify that, I got comments about not wanting to be running around all the time.

I asked about the costs and uniforms, and none seemed to think either was a big issue, although one thought the uniforms were 'cute'.

So- here is at least a sample of some parent's thoughts!

Briantshore-

This is just my own take on the various crafts in Cubbing, so take this for what it is worth.

It is easy for us to remove the skills and creativity aspects of crafts by making them too much a 'follow THESE steps' process.

When we use crafts in Cubs, we really ought to have a purpose in it- teaching a new skill, creating something with an immediate purpose (gift item or prop for a skit, etc.), putting other lessons into practice, etc.

Whenever possible with a craft item, we should try to select options that give the Cubs a lot of control, input, choices, decisions, and/or ownership. They ought to be able to make it THEIRS instead of slavishly reproducing the kit-maker's ideal.

Soap carving can do all of this- knife use, creative thinking, planning, and more. You could assign the sketch as a homework assignment and work with the kids to tune their sketches for better outcomes, or have enough soap on hand to let them screw up on one or two of them before they start their 'good' piece.

HOWEVER, I know some leaders don't have the quirk that lets this philosophy work. I've worked with great leaders that could seemingly do anything... but some kinds of crafts.

If you are the kinda person that just needs a bit more info to make this work, you can find ideas at places like:

http://www.ivory.com/fun.htm

http://www.hitentertainment.com/artattack/aztecsoapcarving.html

http://mte.anacortes.k12.wa.us/art/a6th1.htm

http://library.thinkquest.org/J002459F/sphinx.htm

Simple wood carving patterns work well, too..

http://www.woodcarvers.org/patterns.htm

http://www.woodcarvingstore.com/CarvingBlanksandCut-Outs/WhillockBlanks.asp