madkins007

Oh boy- a knock down, drag out fight over CS and BS knots! I can't wait!

I've got a bunch of both, and am proud of each one, but I DO think the CS has an easier time of it earning them than the BS guys do.

Compare: (requirements abbreviated for space)

CM AWARD

2 years

Fast Start, Basic and YPT training

Do Pow-Wow or 4 RTs

earn 2 Quality Unit Awards

earn National Summertime Pack Award

BS LEADERS TRAINING AWARD

2 years

Fast Start, Basic, YPT training

Do 5 of these 12 options...

- 5 overnights

- 2 FOS

- staff a training event

- participate in upper level training

- supervise fundraising

- MB counselor for 5 Scouts

- Woodbadge

- troop committe function

- assist Webelos for 6 months

- participate in 6 RTs

- help start a troop

CS leaders can earn up to 5 knots for positions filled in a unit.

BS leaders can earn up to 2 knots for positions served in a unit- both requiring some district or council participation.

CS 'scorecards' are submitted and filled pretty much on the honor system. BS awards are submitted on forms that are analysed by the office before being filled.

So, the CS has an unfair advantage, right?

I don't think so. The role for adults is different enough in the two programs that this is much more of an 'apples and oranges' situation than it appears at first glance. Adults in both programs put a lot into it, but CS leaders have to work with the youth on a totally different level and I think deserve the recognition on a position by position basis.

Were it up to me, I would ADD knots for SM, ASM, troop committee, etc., but I can't hold it against the CS that there knots are comparatively easy. It ain't there fault!

Sometimes rumors like this are based on trial programs being run in various places. When I worked in the council office, I had also heard that the BSA was working on such a program.

They are still official uniform wear.

I'd give out the blue uniforms- the neckerchief will cover most of the difference.

I'd also give out the tan uniforms, but I think I'd ask for them back before the boys go to a troop. They won't stand out too bad in your pack, especially with a cool story behind them, but they might draw some attention in a troop.

I am happy to see that you are working your resources to get uniforms!

Scouting isn't cool? That's news? Scouting was not seen as 'cool' back in my day in the early 70's. That is not a sufficient reason for the current possible decline.

Overprogrammed youth? If they can hit soccer 3 times a week, they can make our meetings and activities on a far less hectic schedule. If we are a priority, they will come.

ACLU? They may not be our favorite organization but the group has done a lot of good things for a lot of people.

Scandals, gays, and god? I think this affects a certain part of our potential base, but there have always been aspects of the BSA that bothered some people. In the early days it was the strong para-militaristic bent.

Boring meetings, cookie cutter campouts, weak program, etc.? I think this is 80-90% of our failure to retain boys. We loose a lot of them at age 12 (failed to keep their interest), and at 14-15 ("been there, done that"). Bored kids DO NOT share their enthusiasm for Scouting with others.

Recruitment failures? I think that is a big issue. Troops are so used to recruiting Webelos that they seem to have lost the ability to recruit otherwise. Even packs don't do real well other than recruiting new Tigers. Yeah, we have the 'Recruiter Strip' but I really think we need to be a bit more aggressive on all levels- and not just with sending stuff home at school.

I think one other issue is public awareness. The average person rarely sees a real Scout- in real life, on TV, etc. We USED to be pretty conspicuous in society- that is where all the big 'helpful Scout' stereotypes came from in the first place- the old days with solid khaki uniforms and campaign hats. From back when we advertised in major magazines, sold uniforms and books at many local stores, could be shown on TV in a rather realistic way and did indeed often show up in storylines.

Our old public visibility created an interest in families enough to make them seek us out to join. When was the last time any of us had that happen?

The negative news coverage impinges on this some, as does all of the rather silly or slightly negative use of BSA imagery in commercials and TV today, but mostly it just feels like the BSA has somehow withdrawn from the public eye over the last couple decades.

Locally, for example, we have stopped any Scout shows or fairs for the public over a decade ago. We do not do camporees in public parks. We do parades on a real hit or miss basis. In our biggish town, only one store besides the Scout Shop carries BSA stuff- and our council won't even let them have CSPs! (And it only took a chat with a couple people shpping for uniforms the other night at the other store to see how popular THAT idea was! The Scout Shop has no evening and only short Saturday hours- not real convenient for most people. There is more but that is increasingly off-topic!)

Even looking for them, I can go a LONG time in this town without seeing any evidence of Scouting on the streets, on the TV, on the radio, etc. (other than the occasional yard sign with the traditional faded phone number).

Somehow, I cannot see relief agencies (usually related to federal government somehow) falling over themselves to build us Jambo sites that MIGHT later be used as emergency shelters.

Among the difficulties is that they would, by default, be hundreds of miles from the actual disaster in most cases (odd are just as good that they will be IN the disaster zone too!), so how do you get the 30-40,000 people there in a timely fashion? If you can ship the people that far, why not just disperse them through other communities between the hit site and the Jambo site?

On the other hand, I DO sorta wish we could find a use for the various service and civic-oriented groups to help when things hit that generate national levels of interest. The ability to use Scouts to help raise money directly for emergency relief somehow would be nice, but perhaps it would make more sense to use us on a sort of house to house supply drive- like Scouting for Food, but gathering whatever is needed.

Many volunteer firefighters apparently send clean uniform parts to fellow firefighters in stricken areas. Because it is a standing plan, it takes little to put into effect- a focused, useful program that does not need national-level supervision to execute. I'd LOVE to see the BSA create something similar, maybe something like new or nearly new blankets.

Fixing what went wrong will be an important task over the next few months or years... but you can pretty much bet that our system of government will find some way to muck it up again. Wasn't FEMA created after some similar snafus after a major catastrophe?

What fascinates me is that for the last several years, many organizations have been BEGGING us to prepare for a personal emergency- from the Mormon teaching about prepareness to the BSA to the Red Cross to FEMA and many others.

How many of us have REALLY listened or done anything?

Show of hands... how many of us have any of these PRE-PACKED and ready for an instant's need?

1.) Family rendevous plans on several levels- just outside the house, outside the neighborhood, and outside the region?

2.) A series of reliable emergency contact numbers (nearby (like a neighbor), local, and further away- that are updated and carried in a way that a rescuer can easily find? (in your wallet, under ICE on a cell phone, etc.)

3.) 'Quick grab' emergency bags designed to last each person for at least a day.

4.) Fire safety stuff in place- good fire alarms, extinguisher, escape routes, meeting place, and drills.

5.) Emergency supply of food, water, and money.

6.) Basic car emergency kit.

7.) Good radio, flashlights, and batteries (or other power source).

Yeah- as Scouters, we have a bunch of useful stuff scattered in our houses, but if a fire, flood, tornado, etc. forced you out of your house with only minutes of warning, what would most of US do? (And, just out of morbid curiosity, how many of us in flood zones store a lot of this stuff in the basement? I keep hearing about people trapped in attics in the flooding and I wonder what *I* would have been able to do in their situation.)

I'm guilty. I read this stuff with a passion, but don't do most of it- even though most of these groups talk about how useful a basic stockpile would be in a wide variety of emergencies. A week's supply of safely stored food, for example, would come in real handy when the paycheck just does not quite cover groceries this week. The water supply could be a lifesaver in a fairly minor plumbing crisis. Locally, the lights have gone out for more than 5 hours on several occasions in the last few years. A decent supply of emergency lighting and batteries, and our camping cook sets have been very useful in those situations.

So- if any part of this disaster is that individuals did not respond well in some way, are we any more ready?

When I was a Scout, our troop had split because of the large school being drawn from. They split it along a certain street, and that worked fine for them. No idea if it would help you or work now.

scoutingfamily...

This will be a difficult post to deal with. You don't really ask a question, nor provide much info beyond that failed SMC and the comment about Den Chief and QM.

We can only ASSUME that the PORs were held as a Star Scout and that the SM was somehow dissatisfied with is service in these roles.

Unfortunately I have had to deny a Scout rank for what I considered poor performance in a POR- after some other counseling and trying to get the boy trained, etc. I also have to say that I am a bit surprised whenever I see a Life candidate that has not held something like Patrol Leader, etc.

If you really think that something should be done, you really ought to talk to the troop committee chair about the situation, or if they are not going ot help, trying the COR.

Ed asked "but what is more important - earning his Eagle or becoming an EMT?"

I dunno Ed- I am often in your corner, but this question is a bit tough for me to take at face value. EMT that saves lives, can assist in life and death issues, serves a community even when not on duty and is probably a stepping stone to another career calling like fire fighter... or a rank in a youth organization that is in and of itself pretty dang cool.

Hear, hear FScouter!

One of my minor pet peeves is that sometimes, we SMs focus on Scout Spirit as it applies to Scouting time a bit too much. Sometimes we ask about how they've applied it in everyday life- looking for some example of a good turn or how they have been kind, but so often we try to figure out a way to quantify this- attended so many meetings, was on so many campouts...

My old troop used to do this in an effort to 'manage' the large number of Scouts. Instead of actually knowing much about them, they created checklists and databases for everything. We were supposed to do the SM conference based on a script and printout of the Scout's history. BORs were run about the same factory line way.

(If anyone is ever interested, THAT is MY definition of an 'Eagle factory'- a set of established procedures to streamline the advancement process with minimal effort from the Scout.')

The rule of thumb is to go with school grade, except for units charted to the Latter Day Saints which go by age.

In situations where a child has been held back, boosted a grade, or has other issues muddying the waters, you can usually work with the family and Cubmaster to find an acceptable compromise.

In our council, at least, the council itself will not object to a little 'tweaking'. Cub Scouts is not as formal, nor is a boy's record tracked as carefully as it is in the Boy Scouts.

In this situation, I would encourage the boy to register with his other classmates unless he and his family have some reason for going to Bears. As ScoutMomAng pointed out, it will not change his chances to get Eagle a single bit either way.

Just a couple notes from another enthusiastic but terribly untalented camp-fire singer...

1.) The BSA also offers a CD to learn along with, and quite a few of the old favorites can be found somewhere on-line to listen to or download- often without copy-right. Somewhere on-line, for example, I found some recordings done at Philmont campfires of popular camp songs.

2.) When it comes ot singing camp fire songs, willingness and enthusiasm trump talent. Sing proud.. unless you make other people's ears bleed, then sing more quietly.

3.) Most campfire songs become old favorites BECAUSE they are easy to pick up. You'll know most of the oldies in a few campfires.

Awards- we practice a strict 'higher level, more glory' approach in all awards. LOTSA hoopla over rank, less over Sports and Academics, still less over arrow points, etc.

For ceremonies like this, we do clustering. Judges awards are called off as a group, and all boys brought up at once.

Then, den by den awards, everyone in a den brought up at once.

Finally, the 'Big 6' one at a time.

If it is PRIMARILY an awards night (Derby, Court of Honor, etc.), we break things up with skits, songs, 'sparklers', etc.

Also- NO 'monologing'! Speechifying is kept to an absolute minimum.

During the races, we do food, mix-up the heats so no one Scout has a long wait, do door prizes, have 'commercials', and try hard to have side activities. For Pinewood, we have set up stations with Hot Wheels tracks, R/C cars. slot car racing, and more- even a model car kit show. For one Regatta, we were lucky enough to get some Navy guys there in uniform with stuff to show off and just answer questions.

Take a lesson from NASCAR or any other race- create a multi-activity carnival around the main event. If you have a committee for the Big Event and a small group working the 'other stuff', it is not too hard to end up with a really enjoyable day!

Also remember- our guys (youth and adult) can certainly volunteer with other groups and help them directly. We can work booths and stations, collect money door to door, etc. in the name of the other organization- just NOT in uniform, or with any indication that the BSA is behind this.

We can put our organizational skills, nobilization experience, and networking together and find a group to help directly- get donation boxes from the Red Cross and/or Salvation Army and go out in civvies to canvas neighborhoods. Find out what your CO, church, or school you are associated with is doing and help them- again in civvies... although, if I remember, we can do service projects for our COs in uniform as long as it is not direct fund raising- food or supply drives, etc.

I am of a totally different mind tahn some posters. I believe we grow Scouts IN ORDER TO GO OUT and BE Scouts, NOT just attend meetings.

Were this me, I would contact his bosses or instructors, etc. (with his permission) and see if he is living the Scout ideals in these places.

Taking an EMT class? Any chance Scouing helped spark this interest? Any chance he will get to use his Scout skills and experiences in this? As an EMT (trained but not employed as such), I just bet there is!

If he meets the requirments and shows the ideals of Scout spirt in the real world, I'd OK him.

Kids are kids! Attract these kids the same way you would any others.

Parents, however, are a different story. SUBTLY incorporate a bit more of the 'duty to God', 'moral choices', and other elements that contributed to them selecting a Catholic school in the first place- spirituality, quality, opportunity, morality, safety, parental involment, etc.

Our pack was based in a Catholic school even though I am not Catholic. I don't think we did anything we would not have done in any other school setting.

We offered awards in the following categories- only rule is no boy can win two awards:

1st-3rd place for speed, pack level

1-3 'favorites', pack level

1-3 speed, each den

1-3 favorites, each den

Judges awards, 1 per judge

Cubmaster's Award for Sportsmanship- usually to a boy that something bad happened to- crash, break-up, etc.

Favorites are chosen by each youth getting three 'beans' to drop in a cup positioned by each entry. Voting happens for about 45 minutes before the race as we finish other details.

We have a couple secrets:

1.) We give the awards out at the next meeting AFTER the race.

2.) We figure the awards in about the order given. In the rare instance that an entry does really well in both speed and votes, they get one award and a certificate of merit for the other item.

3.) Oddly enough, we always offer the same number of awards as we have entries. Sometimes we add judges, other times we rate the top 4 places, etc.

Our awards usually consist of a certificate (recently including a digital photo as well!), medal for the pack 1-3, and the top 1 in each den, and a small prize for everyone- often a Hot Wheels car.

(Note- the speeds bit is easier in Pinewood where our track records absolute speeds, and averages every run of any given car)

Ditto with John D. Be careful to not do anything that will fan or create embers of resentment on someone's part. Remember- it IS the school's right, as best they can determine by the laws, to either allow or deny everyone as long as they do so rather evenly.

We are a bit easier to deny since the courts AND the BSA has decided that we have a religious element, which creates a potnetial 1st Ammendment conflict.

The answer is simply to find other recruiting efforts- look at this like a challenge to find different and BETTER ways to recruit!

By the way- you can often still get 'partial access' in newsletters (even if it is a paid ad), materials that can be picked up and taken home (rather than in-class handouts), sign-up booths outside, etc.

Good luck!

Herding cats?

re: Device availability- our Scout shop carried them, but I bet we sold fewer than a dozen total a year. (FYI- you can also use the devices on some other knots, although which ones escapes me right now!)

re: staying on- good luck! These are among the most lost parts of the uniform- forget to take it off and wash it, take it off and lose it, have it fall off during a meeting, etc.

I don't know a lot of people that pay much attention to the devices- I only wear mine at COHs, etc.

A few random thoughts:

1.) If most of your boys are working with one church, then you ought to be able to find someone there to help expedite the paperwork- most churches have done this before at some point in hisory!

2.) Often, the church will help out with the awards- our church, for example, bought the medals.

3.) When working with 'mostly' boys from one church, BE SURE to give the 'other' boys similar opportunities! Our mostly Catholic pack had a 'religious award coordinator' on the committee who worked with den leaders to make sure that non-Catholic boys had the same kinds of benefits, etc.

E- I understand your divided mind, and appreciate your dilemma.

I think you need to follow your gut.

The 'crisis of faith' is common in many phases of life. He is just feeling the BSA version.

The problem is that, to get out of these, some people need a smack upside the head to clear and refocus the mind. Some need a swift kick in the rear to get them moving again. Some need a word of support and encouragement- a gentle reminder that they are still loved one way or the other to help ease their troubled soul. Some need to be left to stew in their own juices. Some... well, you know what I mean.

We've both known parents who have done every trick in the book (ranging from the old 'no Eagle, no car' trick to 'letting them find their own way') ans we know some people it worked for, and others it did not.

On a seperate issue, I strongly agree that most troops have no idea what to do with Eagles or older Scouts. It is pretty sad. I also think it is a bit de-motivating for these guys. I sorta wish there was a program of some sort ONLY open to Eagles at the local levels!

I'd also suggest thinking up other fund raisers. popcorn is OK but you can earn more money faster in other ways.

Cub Scouts are GREAT for car washes- cute kids in uniform being great tools for pulling people off the street. I'd suggest a 'free-will offering' payment- most people will pay more that way. One benefit- you can do most of the planning in a few days, do the event in an afternoon, and be counting the money right away. Nice, fast, and easy.

Raking or general yard work is not a big money maker, but it is a LOT more fun and simple with 10 boys working together. This is another pretty simple project that can be put together in a few days.

(I REALLY like fund raisers that are easy to plan and run, and produce cash quickly!)

You can google 'fund raising for youth groups' and get a lot of companies selling pretty mediocre stuff, and hopefully find a couple good books or idea lists. You have a LOT of options- you just don't know them all yet.

CNY (and Seabear)...

I was a part of a mega-troop, that in the past had been truely magnificent. Then they got a SM who ran the unit in a way that was not immediately obvious. It still LOOKED like it was boy-ran, but the adults were doing a lot of the work and were not seeing it. No patrol method, no fun and innovative programs, MB classes during meetings... but still kicking out an Eagle every few months like clockwork.

The SM left and they looked for a new one. They had nearly a dozen ASM's and long-time committee members, but they chose me- and all I wanted to do was to be an ASM long enough to learn the unit and stop being considered an outsider.

I talked to the CC about it and what I thought was going on, and had the CC's support and the verbal support of the committee and other ASMs. We were going back to patrol method- most of these guys did not even know their patrol names.

Long story short- I did indeed NOT have the full support of the old guard who liked things the way they were going, the patrols never gelled, the boys never expressed an interest in anything vaguely interesting, and I left after a painful year. It remains one of my worse years in my life ever.

I am reminded of the old arguements about our kids hanging out with the wrong crowd. Some parents firmly believe that it is OK because THEIR child might help the whole group turn out better... a great thought but rarely the reality!

So, CNY, what do you do?

Had I to do over again, I would have said no to the mega-unit (I KNEW it was a mistake to enroll there but my son really liked it!), and gone with my first instincts and enrolled my son in a decent smaller unit closer to home that had a solid, but not perfect, rep.

If there were problems, I would have joined the committee or adult leadership- where ever would have been the best fit, and tried to help them tackle them one by one, working with group consensus.

I think you need to make a decision- either find a good unit, or find one you can help with your skills and interests, and is willing to be changed- even if only slowly. If you stick, choose your battles and aim for incremental change until the 'sea winds' are with you- then go for big differences.

As far as the classic 'why are you here' question, the obvious answer is that we volunteer because it fits a need within us. We wnat to belong to a bigger group with lofty goals. In the BSA, we can fulfill personal needs AND help a lot of other people as well!

Saying we are here for our sons or other boys is accurate, but tends to be superficial. As Bob White has pointed out, the BSA needs good leadership. If we are willing to try to provide it, then surely we deserve ot have a good time at the same time?

Using www.imdb.com to search for 'boy scout', I got these hits:

"The Boy Scout" (2002) Directed by Ward Roberts. it got 7 out of 10 stars- pretty good for a flick I never heard of! The description is of an 'adult boy scouts misadventures'.

"Henry Aldrich, Boy Scout" (1944) Directed by Hugh Bennett. A whopping 8.7 out of 10 rating!

"The Nuclear Boy Scout" (2003) (TV)

and, of course, the one I can't believe no one posted yet...

"The Last Boy Scout" (1991)

(along with a few others from 1915(!!??))

I have no clue as to the sexual orientation of most of my leaders*, and that is just the way I think it ought to be. (*- Overlooking the obvious presence of offspring, that is!)

I don't particularly want anyone going around flaunting their sexual orientation in Scouting- homosexual OR hetereosexual. I think that for the most part, any behavior that would get a person branded as 'openly homosexual' would be just about as wrong coming from a hetereosexual.

To me, it OUGHT to be the *behavior* we are worried about.

(Sorry, Bob White- I posted the conversation I did because it struck me as funny rather than because that is the way I do things! At one point in its history, it had a note to that effect on it.)