madkins007

Ditto F-Scouter. I know that for many camps I have had enough trouble coming up with enough leaders to go, much less provide as staff.

Locally- rounding up camp staff was pulling teeth the first couple years, but by taking exceptional care of staff, they built up a crew of volunteers (youth and adult) that clammored to attend each year.

I was not privy to all that happened, but some of the things they did for staff volunteers included catered meals (not all of them, of course!), free or reduced pass for their own summer camp experience, some cool patches and hats, a daily staff 'unwind' party and weekly bash (ice cream and ice-cold drinks played a big part in these!), daily raffles and contests of all types, staff-only pool time, etc.

My 2 cents worth is that a SM Conference for rank and the Webelos 'have a conference with an SM' are not the same thing.

It is my impression that the Webelos requirement can be paraphrased thusly:

"Go to some Scout troop meetings and get a feel for where you wish to go after AOL. Your parents are a part of this decision- bring them along. After the visit, speak with the SM."

Purpose of the meeting is unspecified, but it is my impression that it is a chance for the SM to have a last word with the boy(s) and maybe answer questions from the Webelos or their parents.

I see nothing inherent in the use of terms, the phrasing, or the purpose of the requirement that prevents it being a group thing.

It COULD be a lot of things, but if he is 'in it for the fun' and seems to be having a good time, what's the big deal?

I'd honor his wishes (for example, does he even want his name called, but just not go up?) After all- with all the guys that seem to be chasing rank, it is kind of refreshing to see someone who seems more excited by the program itself!

(Of course, I'd also keep an eye on him to see if anything raises my 'spidey sense', and try to meet with his folks, just to say hi and make a conection.)

I am sorry you had a less-than-stellar time, but I'd advise you to think carefully before mailing any letters (or talking to anyone with ANY 'heat' left in your voice).

Imagine for a moment YOU are the volunteer (individual or committee member) who planned an event that did not come off well, and YOU got your letter from a stranger outside of your unit- heck, outside of your program!

What would your response to your letter be? I think I'd be rather ticked unless the letter was VERY carefully worded.

Options I WOULD suggest:

1. Send a letter with some helpful ideas for the next such event WITH an offer to help at least discuss any ideas. (Scouting Rule Of Complaining: Try to have a suggestion for improvement, or offer to help yourself.)

2. In the future, have a Plan B. There are a million things that can go wrong, even with a well-planed event. It is nice when THEY have a Plan B (or C, D, and E), but because of logistics, it is tough to have alternatives that suit everyone. You all came up with a Plan B, but it would have been easy enough to have planned and packed for one- just in case.

3. As a general rule of thumb- it is REALLY rare to have an event that appeals to the huge variation in ages that Tigers to Boy Scouts covers. Heck, it is tough enough for grade schools to come up with a good all-school program! I do not mean this is a mean way, but it is generally best to approach any such attempt with an eye towards watching out for your den's own interests.

I know that the National Outdoor Leadership School or Outward Bound or someone had a 'generic' menu using so many pounds of various raw products, if that is what you are looking for.

A lot of backpacking cooking books have food charts that might help- but most of them go more by calories than portion size.

Maybe if you let us know why you want it we can help you better? (Trying to go ultralight backpacking, etc.)

Winter wear pants:

Remember your layering-

INNER LAYER- comfort, wicking

- acrylic pajamas, thermal long-johns...

- poly fleece 'sweats' or other no-cotton fleece pants can be inner and mid layers at the same time!

MID-LAYER- warmth, insulation

- thrift shop wool suit pants- preferably winter weight

- poly fleece pants, no-cotton sweats

OUTER LAYER- water/wind/abrasion resistant

- wool suit pants, tight weave

- nylon pants or shells

- Tyvek protective clothing (OK, hard to find, but works great!)

Shopping hints:

- Thrift stores! Look in the suits and women's sections. A lot of women's PJs, etc. are made from great non-cotton materials. Dye the stuff navy or black if needed to cover floral patterns.

- Military surplus, especially dress uniform pants. Often a nice, heavy, tightly woven wool or wool blend

- Acrylic is useful for cheap bulk. It is not nearly as good as wool, fleece, silk, etc., but it IS cheap and can be quite warm.

OR make'em yourself. Simple drawstring pants can be made from cheap warm blankets.

The super-cheap 'computer on every desk' computer has been a goal of many groups for years. The article is absolutely right- a lot of a modern computer is 'fat'.

But fat sells computers! The majority of innovations in recent years have been driven by the perceieved need to run graphics, games, movies, etc. 'better'.

We've known for years that we could recycle older computers into good workstations for lower-income groups and that there is a nice selection of cheap software they could use. They'd do homework, Internet, e-mail, and even work with Word and other files perfectly well. We can use 'not new' PDAs for many of the same functions!

But who would do it? There is almost no profit involved. Who would collect, sort, test, reconfigure, load, distribute and train for all the computers you would need to do? Its a pretty large job just for a single decent sized school!

As far as building and selling a decent $100 NEW machine? Where is the profit incentive for a big maker? The customer probably won't buy any software, accessories, etc. that hardware makers depend on.

Our pack's solution was to...

1. add a few rules to minimize high-tech, high-priced advantages (original wheels and axles could be polished and sanded but not lathed, no hub caps, etc.)

2. de-emphasise speed by making popularity votes and so on equally important.

3. spend a little time pre-teaching that this is supposed to be a parent-son bonding activity, with the boy doing whatever he can himself and the parent providing support and tool expertise.

4. workshop nights run by the dads with the hottest shops and skillz so anyone interested gets about the same level of help.

5. weigh-in/inspection, then lock up. Boy MUST present his own car. A brief talk with each Cub usually shows who did what.

6. parent run-offs. Let the gear-heads build their own car under their own name and race between heats. Better yet- make'em PAY to race and have grudge matches, etc. This solved the problems of our worst parent. We put one of our other bad ones in charge of the idea (yes- that WAS evil! Thank you!)

7. a rumor was going around that cars that were discovered to have been mostly parent-built would not be allowed to run next year. I have NO IDEA how that rumor started. It wasn't true in any case.

This was a cyclical thing for us- BIG problem the first year, almost no problem for a couple years, then popping up again.

We've always allowed any EARNED neckerchief or bolo for all but the most formal occasions- and even then allow certain designs.

Slides can be a bit awkward to store with their variety of sizing. I saw a rather cool plan for a wooden cutout of a hand to hold slides on the fingers though.

You could do a simple rack- a board with several dowels poking up and a slide on each short dowel. Line up another rack that is a bit taller behind the first, etc. to show off a lot of slides.

A simple knick-knack cabinet or printer's drawer with a lot of small compartments might do the trick.

Based on your description of a moderately elaborate set-up, I think I would build a shadow box with a door on front, then rig up some Plexiglass shelves for the slides. Install pegs if necessary to help hold them correctly.

Thinking back over our meetings (pack, troop, district committees, etc.), the key element to whether or not the Pledge, Oath, etc. were used was uniforming. If we were uniformed, there was SOME sort of ceremony. If not, there rarely was.

At the unit level, most of our meetings were non-uniformed, except for a few leadership meetings (training, ASM/SM meetings, etc.)

There is a possibility that good training, like Woodbadge, will straighten him out.

How did you get to this point? Who 'hired' him? Who works well with him and can tell him to straighten up effectively? Who else can you ask to step in?

At this stage, I'd work on options- how can you get him 'fixed' (assuming he can be repaired), and/or who else can do the job well if necessary?

Note to self: do before Derby Day...

1. Contact CERN about possibility of using magnetic flux fields to 'float' axles for zero friction.

2. Get ahold of Steven Hawking- there's GOTTA be a way I can increase the mass of the car without increasing the weight!

3. Bribe race committee to allow lathed wheels, then get those High Denisty Tungeten "Razor Disk 3000's" I saw in the back of that 'Scouting for Boys' magazine.

4. Remember to tell my son what color his car is so he can find it on race day

" So why do so many units sell popcorn and do it so well?

What do you suppose they're up to? "

They have found large numbers of people willing to buy popcorn from young people in uniforms (or parents in the office) at prices higher than the stores because they are supporting a cause- would be my guess. That's what the guys in my units did to make the sales they made, at least.

Personally, I think popcorn is the result of 'committee' think- a rather bland, 'safe' program with flaws that are covered up basically by brute force rather than an innovate product or program that cannot be bought at Wal-Mart for a fraction of the price.

One thing the GS cookies has in its favor is that you cannot buy some of the best flavors locally, period. At least Trail's End could offer us some options that you CAN'T buy at Wally World!

A lot of it is the presentation.

We pointed out, up front, that this was IT for pack charges (except for uniforming, summer camp, and other things on our list). 1/2 due today, and the other half due by such and such a date.

We also shared that they could sell popcorn and other fundraisers to help offset the cost of summer camp and the next year's dues.

$40 is a LOT of money if there is still a lot of other costs involved, not much at all if it is the last real fee.

I agree with most of the suggestions of the previous posters, but I have to wonder...

Your son is a Web 1- and presumeably you were happy with the Bear den he was in- what happened this summer?

It sounds like the pack had a melt-down. :ost a few good leaders, emergency recruitment of some fill-ins, and a lot of scrambling.

How far are you personally willing to go to help? It sounds like every leader you mentioned needs training and either replacement or a good assistant.

The good news is that we have seen packs go from this to wonder units in a few months- a little training, some leader recruitment, some planning, and viola!

FScouter- thanks for taking the time to post that passage!

Before we went to the method we did, we discussed it with parents, leaders, and the committee. That specific point was brought up and tried for a year. We chose not to repeat it.

I consider that as a suggestion rather than a Method or policy. I know it works great for many units and more power to them. As for us, it just was not consistant with KISMIF in our own corner of the world.

I am NOT a fan of merit badge workshops, some forms of merit badge classes at meetings, or even (gasp!) many of the merit badges done at camp- in fact, of almost ANY form of 'group-earned' merit badges, and this conversation is an example of why.

In my experience, ANYTIME I wonder about the legitimacy of a badge award, the Scout involved was a part of a larger class, and I am uncomfortably uncertain that the counselor in the group setting really, truely TESTED the Scout for skills and knowledge.

It seems to me that in most group settings, the badge is all too often awarded for attendence or classroom work of some sort.

I FULLY agree with Bob White that the MBC is THE final authority of who has and has not earned a badge, but I have also been known to talk to Scouts (privately) about whether they really feel they earned a badge I suspect was not really done properly. If they think they earned it, however, that ends it.

Bob White posted " Well who can argue with logic like that? Absolutely, go to the unit committee and tell them dispite all the money they made and all the things it purchased for the scouts, and all the prizes that the boys got, the unit should stop doing it because YOU don't like it.

I'll bet that goes over real big. Now that you've explained it so well who could disagree? "

Actually, it went over quite well when I made just those suggestions. I was not by any means the only one on the committee who thought the stuff was over-priced and were irritated by the Council's emerging strong-arm policies.

The troop I was in decided to make popcorn a minor fundraiser and other things the major fundraisers.

The percentage back to the council was not a major issue (other than how it impacted the product costs), nor was percentage of profits the deciding factor.

We wanted something that we could sell and feel good about because it was a good price for what it was without needing the leverage of 'helping Scouting', and that people wanted to buy. Gee, sorta like the fundraising guidelines suggest!

When I read your subject line, I flashed back to an old Boy Scout Handbook section on Patrol Camping, where they suggested that the first thing a patrol do when setting camp is to run up the US and their patrol flags.

The cool part was, since this was backpacking, they used improvised flagpoles. The one I remember being shown was just tossing a rope up in a high branch and making a loop, then staking out/tying off the lower end.

I also vaguely remember some really tall flagpoles lashed out of long spars- but this is probably pretty far outside the Wolf Cub's ability level!

We did almost the same thing as 5570- figure the needs, etc. but we charged the families the full costs up front, payable 1/3rd upon registration, and the balance by October's pack meeting. Popcorn money and other fundraisers could be used for summer camp, next year's dues, etc.

We also offered no refunds unless we asked the family to leave the unit (only happened once, sad story for all concerned.)

Our method was voted upon by the parents one year and passed almost unanimously, and was re-voted each June pack meeting.

It gave us some strong benefits-

- big cash flow early in the year when there is a big need

- strong incentive for families to support the program to 'get their money's worth'

- absolutely NO pressure to sell popcorn or anything else. You sold it to help pay off next year and summer camp, or you did not- it did not affect the unit's base cash flow. Oddly- without the 'need' to sell, we usually did better than we had ever one before!

- almost NO 'nickel and diming'- we did not need to hit parents up every few meetings for more cash for stuff.

- No record-keeping elements for den leaders. With a pack annual dues, a certain percentage went directly to the den leaders and we could usually reimburse immeiately.

So- with that policy in place, we would have already collected their dues and would not be refunding them, and they would have known this from even before signing the forms.

I apologize for not remembering how much any of the units I have been associated with earned, but both the pack and the main troop I was with both had boys who were top sellers in the district, and one year we had the 3rd top seller in the council.

About 50% of the families that actively sold popcorn were able to pay for both summer camp and dues out of it. I would estimate that about 50% of the families of both units actively sold it.

This is even considering that the pack was in a solidly lower income area.

But... it is also interesting that in probably about 75-85% (possibly even as high as 'all but one') of the cases, the top sellers were families that took the forms to work or made a deal with a company to use popcorn as a coprorate holiday gift. By a weird coincidence, the company I worked for was one of those usiung it as a corporate gift, and the family they bought it from made top seller that year.

It sold very well for some of our families, but I still don't like it as a fundraiser.

" I can't figure out which side of the fence you guys are on...

1. It costs so much!

2. We don't get enough percentage!"

As for me, neither side.

What I want is something that will SELL! A product people want at a price they will pay.

Sure, there are pros and cons to cookies, candy bars, etc., but surely, with the creative power the BSA can bring to bear on a subject, we can come up with SOMETHING unique, marketable, and that can be sold for a fair price.

It really is too bad that some of the awards throughout the Scouting program are written rather dryly. The instructor can make a difference in presenting the stuff, but it would sure be nice of the material was exciting enough to get the Scouts enthusiastic on its own.

I also am not a big fan of any badge or award that can be earned without some form of hands-on element.

All that said, were you one of the den leaders I used to work with, I would point out that it is far more fun to run a great, fun-filled program that 'just happens' to meet several requirements than it is to try to build programs around checking off requirements.

Seattle- consider those tiny, clear 'dress snaps'- a bit harder to set up, but they don't gum up like Velcro. You can also make up a nametag that uses the same pattern when you don't want the Strip.