madkins007

External, visible, and desireable motivation has always helped fundraisers, no matter how noble the purpose. Perhaps the astated goal of the fundraiser should be sufficient but often it just isn't- especially during the middle 'dragging' phase of the activity.

Adventures work nicely- some variation of 'if we hit X, we'll all go to Adventure Park!', then a big tote board to proudly display the progress towards the goal.

Food is also a motivator in our society- a pizza party and all the trimmings, or a ice cream blow out, or a full-on pig roast, etc.

Scoutmaster (or other nice, visible target) serving some sort of hazing is popular, but I agree that it is not my preferred method. Besides the pie or shaving, you can try things like...

Scoutmaster and/or adult leadership will...

- buy specific, moderately priced treats for all

- put up the tents and/or cook for the unit next campout

- wear the dumbest looking hats you can find to each meeting/event for a month

- sponser a movie and popcorn meeting night (or some other special meeting-based event- especially in colder weather months)

- be silent for a certain number of meetings (notes and handsigns optional!)

- offer a surprise special guest at a given meeting (local band, special guest speaker, small-group performer like a magician, news crew, live animals, science demo, etc.)

- hold up signs at a crowded public site loudly proclaiming how great the unit is (would it be appropriate to be in uniform for this?) OR post baners in strategic locations (which can also all serve as a rrecruiting tool!)

Bob White replied "Since he is not here I will voluntarily fill his position. Every time time you, or jkhny, or prairie scouter, or Ed, toss out any more wild eyed claims about what the BSA should or should not be doing or supposedly is doing that they shouldn't do I will happily say Bull and insist you show evidence. (P) If I cannot support the BSA without being criticized why should you be allowed to make baseless accusations and not face the same scrutiny?"

Bob White- thank you!

I really appreciate that you take the time and trouble to point out how things should work/do work if things are done right, weak thinking, ideas that sounded good when I was typing them but really weren't, etc.

While I try to help people and learn new stuff in some threads, some threads are more 'cracker barrel'- where the give and take is at least partly entertainment in and of itself. In other words, I really, honestly have fun reading your posts- even when pointed at me.

I hope I have not offended you with any of my replies- there are few people I have met here I would ever try to offend or tease in a mean way- but you are not one of them (well, OK, maybe a couple times I did not count to 10 before I replied, but overall, I am really glad you're here!)

Find the closest place you are allowed to do and set up some sort of activity and display booth- mini-Pinewood, 'guess the number of jelly beans' jar, photos or slideshow of last year's stuff, samples of stuff the Cubs have done...

Create an interactive handout- we had a lot of luck with a coloring page that had our information tucked nicely in a corner. Consider a handout that includes a coupon- bring the coupon to the meeting (or bring a friend) and get *something* (candy bar? Scout pencil? We used Hot Wheels cars and these were pretty successful.)

Is there a school newsletter you can take out an ad in? Banner ads hung nearby? Skywriting?

If I am ever involved in teaching leader training/uniforming classes again, instead of rehashing the Insignia Guide and inspection forms, I plan on showing 6 large photos: 1 each of an adult and a youth in no, partial, and complete uniforms. I will then ask each participant to look at the pictures and tell me, based solely on what you see here...

- Which youth's parents are the most supportive?

- Which youth will go the furthest in the program?

- Which youth wants to be here the most?

- Which youth is most likely to follow den/patrol and pack/troop policies and by-laws?

- Which adult would you most likely entrust your children and money to?

- Which adult looks the most trained and professional?

- Which adult is here to most serve the unit and boys?

Wearing the uniform, as a youth or adult, sends a message. Wearing it at school tells your peers you are a geek, but it also tells adults that you have some practical skills and leadership training. Adults wearing the uniform at recruiting activities, etc. sends a strong message of competence and support.

One of my favorite memories is Philmont Training Center- seeing a huge group of people in tan and khaki wandering around, no one self-conscious, no one judging others based on clothes. Judging each other, if at all, by insignia and what it represented.

I may wish for a different uniform or some changes in the policy, I DO like the overall concept!

So- how many people have seen anyone in the Scout Dress uniform? I've seen many Scouters in suits with lapel pins or other Scout 'designators', but so far none of the dress uniforms.

So, basically we need a Scout equivilant of 'Sunday clothes (or 'photo day'), 'school clothes', and 'play clothes' to meet most of our unit's day-to-day needs?

It would be kinda fun to have three rhymin' words to describe these... DUds (Dressy Uniform), BUds (Basic Uniform), & GRUbs (Going Rough Uniform)?

Acco's strip is Clear Blue Water, and the storyline started on Thursday, so when you click on it, just go to the archives section and start with Thursday's strip.

FScouter's comments are 'bulleted' here:

- No Boys Life magazine (how can it be published it if there is no national office?)

- No Scout Shop (these shops dont run themselves)

- No Scouter magazine (no longer needed since leaders are on their own now)

Actually, these things might be better off if they seperated from National. Boy's Life used to be independent, Scout shops in other countries are independent (and might well enjoy better sales seperated from the policies of the Scout office), etc.

As for the list in general- you are of course dead on. We may not NEED each of the things, but it sure helps.

I was flabbergasted that an ADE could not articulate the overall idea better, and be able to explain the simple reality that MUCH of the benefit of FOS and other 'higher level' fundraising is used for 'intangibles' that just happen to be key to the BSA's success.

John-in-KC-

I really REALLY hate to point this out, but the 'official uniform' tag in the clothing does not necessarily mean that it is official for all programs equally (as evidenced by the tag in the Cub shirt). Like I said, as far as I can tell it is only 'official uniform' for Philmont staff.

For it to be official uniform for Scouts, it would have to be listed in the Insignia Guide, which it is not.

Wow- The Walgreen's "Town of Perfect's" Boy Scout program!

If I took the whiners, complainers, and the 'lumps' out of our group of district and council volunteers, we'd have much smaller meetings! While the ideal world WOULD promote hard working, knowledgeable people up the ladder- paid or volunteer, the reality is that oftimes they just need warm bodies, and/or use the 'good old boy' network- at least here.

I will freely admit that most of them dearly love Scouting, I can't say as I've seen most of the rest of BW's description in action hereabouts. Most of them are just decent people trying to help. Not supermen or Wonder Women. I have always suspected that a group of them are there because their units volunteered them just to get rid of them! ;-)

On a differnet tack...

Whining does in fact change things. Not for the better necessarily, but a million lawsuits and policy changes instituted because of whines proves that it works. For that matter, violence solves a lot of things as well- no matter what the old saying says.

However, what I see here much of the time is less whining and more sharing of thoughts and opinions. Positive change requires at least some identification of the problem, some options on resolving it, and some consensus on the best way to go.

Corporations stifle this process with concepts like 'don't bring me a problem without offering a solution', 'there are no problems, only opportunities' and other happy-talk. Nothing wrong with those ideas per se, but for the best brainstorming, people have to feel that they can bring up ANYTHING. Even the most left-field suggestions and thoughts can have real power in them.

We here may (and probably won't) ever agree on a single thing, or be asked to serve on a National Committee to change something, etc., but we CAN and do share data that helps us clarify oour thoughts or show us WHY an idea might not work the way we think it could, etc.

Just as a last thought- sometimes the WORST thing any organization can do is to pay too much attention to the people who think the same way the company does. Billy Graham employed a guy whose main function was to regularly shout "Bull..." at meetings to make sure that things never fell into groupthink mode.

re: FOS

Once, while I was cleaning up after chairing a Cub Leader training session at the council headquarters, the Assistant DE for our district (a great guy, by the way!) hit me up about why I did not invite the FOS people to the pack meeting.

I mentioned a few things going on- our unit had been shuffled between 3 districts for about 3 years (we were close to a dividing line that kept getting moved). That we had never seen a Commish at a meeting (we had a good friend commish who helped with rechartering, etc. when needed- but half the time, she was not even in our district!) That in the last few years, the invited speaker failed to show or even to call to apologize for not showing.

He hemmed and hawed, then offered to come himself. I politely thanked him and told him it was OK, we were doing pretty well with doantions. He disagreed, so I asked him The Big Question.

"What will you tell our pack's parents about why they should support FOS?"

He launched into the canned response.

- Helps Scouting of disadvantaged youth. [i knew from my job in the Scout office that this help was limited to a few troops in a targetted district- no packs. Further, the entire budget for it was less than my pack collected last year.]

- Camperships [Only available to Boy Scouts, and only in one district. In the last few years, only a few had been given out.]

- Uniform bank [see above]

- Summer camp [Our Cub camp was a joke, and he seemed to have forgotten that I served on staff of it. The Council hired away many of the staff our camp director hired (and then told the youth that they would inform her about this- and they did not. She started camp horrified to learn that over 4/5ths of her staff had been hired away! The ones who stayed did not get paid for months after the camp was over.) Horror stories about the buildings and improvement fund are also available)

- Training {He seems to have forgotten that I was the Cub Leader Training Chair, even though I was wearing a name tag saying that. We were required by Council to charge at least $5/head for training even when my staff donated almost ALL materials, we had to find a building to meet in, the council refused to buy new materials to replace outdated and worn out stuff, and to top it all off, the SE did not want us meeting in his building in the first place (we had been invited to do so by the shop manager and DE).

- Paid professional staff [Which begs the question 'what do they do to justify Cub parents donating money to them?']

- Uh... he kind of petered out at this point.

So, I turn to the assembly here in this Great Forum to answer The Big Question: Why SHOULD Cub parents support FOS?

(FYI- what I talked to the ADE about is NOT what I tell parents during FOS night! I may be cynical about the paid levels of Scouting, but I still managed to help raise with our 40 Cub families about 75% of what our troop raised with over 100- and our pack was in a lower income area than the troop was!)

Bob White said "Perhaps you have not had any unit leadership experience but I have never had a den, pack or troop meeting that depended on Corporate giving, the paid staff at any level of scouting, or affected by 'social approval'. (P) Nor was the recruitment in the units I served ever affected by anything other the quality of the program we delivered."

And "It's unfortunate that there was no one in your unit knowledgeable enough about scouting to explain the structure of the scouting community and how a healthy council helps to not only provide a better service and program support to the scouts in the unit today but also in the future. Perhaps if the council had the funds it needed, to do the work it wanted to do for the scouts and units..."

Does a healthy council not depend, in part, on a healthy program of corporate giving, solid staff recruitment, and the support of unit leaders as volunteers? And is that not exactly some of the stuff I suggested might be affected by some of the things happening today?

I'd also suggest that while our meetings do indeed not need any support from on high (and I am a BIG fan of the district leaving me alone and I'll leave it alone!)... things like summer camp sure do. Summer camp also has an effect on Scout retention.

I don't know about your troop recruitment, but ours was pretty much 99%+ from packs, so our troop health depends a lot on local packs offering a program that keeps kids excited. These youth and parents know the program well enough to ignore outside influences and news.

How are you doing on recruiting boys who have not been Webelos? We used to do well in this category- as units and as a program. Cubs have always been a better source, but 'walk-ins' used to happen as well, even a few years ago. Talking to others at RT, I doubt there were a dozen 'walk-ins' in the entire district last year.

Speaking of Cubs, how many districts or councils in the last few years have had the resources- paid or volunteer staff and money, to offer a killer Cub summer camp program? Ours tends to be bad enough that many packs do not re-register and some express doubt about Scout summer camp (even though that is well done here). Just not enough resources to do it right.

The guy who is The Tracker would recommend a debris hut- find or create a small depression in a sheltered area (do not dig in fragile soil, but matt down plants or scrape away leaf litter, scrape away snow, etc.)

Line the depression with a tarp, leaf litter or other soft, insulative material that also provides a dampness barrier if needed.

If possible, 'bury' a tube of some sort (tube tent, tarp folded over, 2 large trash bags (one cut open at the bottom and the two taped together), etc.) in a pile of leaves, grasses, straw, and other 'fluffy' materials.*

If possible, put stuff over the pile to stabilize it- branches, a loose net of twine, another tarp, whatever.

Wiggle your way into the tube, fashion a warm cap or mask out of your clothing, and enjoy a snug, warm sleep!

*- if no 'tube' is available, just lay down and start building the heap over your feet (pile, secure, pile, secure) working your way up your body.

Note- if you want to be found, be sure to put out a good marker, cuz you'll be invisible inside this thing!

I like the basic lean-to for the purposes of the badge. Find a tree leaning at a good angle, or lash a long found pole to a tree to create the 'spine'. Using found branches, lay a series of 'ribs' along one side, and partway up the other side if you wish. Do not strip off smaller branches- intertwining them makes the walls stronger and easier to thatch.

Thatch the walls with leaf litter, tall grasses, spare clothing, found materials, etc. Tuck the thatch in the smaller branches, or use other branches to sort of 'staple' everything together.

Remember- everything here is a trade off- 'wider' lean-tos have more room, but leak more and take more materials. Covering the 'open' side provides more protection but less air and makes getting in and out harder. Tighter 'weaves' block bugs... and air.

Also- no food or fires in any of these things! (Fire is obvious, but people often forget the 'no food' rule. No need to invite vermin inside!)

Philmont shorts, expedition hats, and a few other items are often thought of as 'official uniform', when (as far as I can tell), they are not.

I had been told, many moons ago, that the Philmont shorts were 'uniform' only for Philmont staff, who were Explorers/Venture and had selected such for their uniform as they were allowed to do.

The Expedition hat (one of my faves) is listed as 'an approved activity hat' which many people take to mean 'uniform', but it never seems to show up in the Insignia Guide as such.

I am not sure you can discount the 'shock value' of the Boy Scout label either. The news mentions it every chance they get because it makes any given story more shocking, more evocative, and easier to sell. Whenever the media can find a way to add a 'hook' to a story, it will. Scouting is just a convenient hook.

A thought struck me when I noticed the frequency of sports uniform comments...

How many uniforms does the average Scout/Scouter go through, including those owned simultaneously?

As an adult leader, I had, at any given time, 3 shirts, a dozen T-shirts, 2 pairs of pants, a pair of shorts, about 8 pairs of socks (not sure why), and several accessories. I know a lot of boys heading to camp, training sessions, etc. own two sets.

Multiple copies of the uniform just aggrevate the nickel and diming issues.

Bob White,

My thought on the badges would mean that National would make it so you can't get ANY position patch (other than things like Denner or other positions that really do not require training) without completing some training. Make them a restricted item, like rank, OA, or Woodbadge stuff. This would make the 'Trained' strip redundant.

Of course, this would also mean that we'd have to get more aggressive about offering training in a way that benefits the units better and faster. Combine Fast Start and part of Basic into this, then create a more advanced program (University of Scouting?) for people interested. Perhaps creating a formal Unit Trainer position (perhaps with stronger ties to the Council training comittee than to the committee?)

Overall, I just think we can do a better job of training, and of requiring training as one part of an overall program improvement campaign.

One of the historical underpinnings of Western science was the idea that God created an orderly universe, and that by learning the underlying 'rules', one could better understand God, AND be able to extrapolate other, more hidden 'rules'.

I am fascinated that we've come pretty much full circle, and there is a major movement afoot to throw out all of what we have learned over the last millenium in favor of the teachings of a few people who do not really seem to understand science OR the Bible really well.

Pro-creationists need to look at why most Christians around the world ignore their position, and at the background of the movement and founders.

Bob White said "For the life of me I cannot fathom how anyone can think that a SE who give a false membership report in Atlants ahs anu effect at all on the quality of your next meeting, and that is all the scout cares about."

The PR and similar problems at the National level may be difficult to quantify, but could include:

- Reduced corporate giving, which will impact summer camps and other programs that depend on this influx of funds.

- Hiring paid staff. Good people do not want to work for companies in the news for bad reasons, especially at the starting pay of the BSA.

- Reduced social approval of Scouting. We've been sliding in public perception for a couple decades now. Calling someone a 'boy scout' is almost certainly meant as a slur. It is odd- there is still the 'old ladies across the street, tie knots well' perception as a helpful, skilled youth, but mostly we are portrayed in a vaguely comical or negative way. National's actions don't do a lot to counteract this.

- Recruitment. It may not be impacting most of our recruiting (school drives, peer-to-peer, etc.), but it certainly is not helping to pull youth from the street. In our heyday, youth LOOKED for units to join, often after buying the Handbook at a local drug or book store. How many of our units today get youth knocking on their doors like that?

- Warning flags to mom and dad. No one story will do this, but the constant bombardment of stories about individuals, corporate policy, and so on have a cumulative effect.

Churches and schools are another 'apples and aardvarks' comparison- especially since in most of those cases it is easy to say that it was just that one person or that one church, not the entire structure of religion or education.

- Sapping a certain 'something' from the volunteers and members. I love my job and my co-workers. However, when I hear of my company doing stuff that I think is questionable, it affects my enthusiasm and/or my trust and loyalty to it. I think a lot of volunteers do the same and are just tired of it. Some go into denial, some mentally seperate themselves or the field from National, some back off some in some way, some leave, some never join. Some, of course, are unaffected (maybe).

The one you have with you when you need it is the best.

I've owned Leathermans, Gerbers, Victronix, Coleman, Shrade, and others. For a while, this was an active collection.

I lean towards the Schrade ToughTool as a decent overall tool. Not as nice in some ways as the Gerber, but easier on the pocketbook and indeed tough.

My current tool is a Leatherman Juice S2. What I like best about it is the small size, complete tool selection for my needs (SCISSORS!) and the non-pinch design. 2 tools open when the handle is closed, so fits that need as well. Finally, it is a reasonably priced tool.

I applaud and do 'alternative buying' for uniforms, etc. and that is wonderful. Unit uniform banks can help a ton as well.

None of that changes the detail that someone, somewhere paid full price with no other options- no patterns, no look-a-likes, etc.

I like the idea of 'troop planting'- a strong (but not required) policy of splitting units when they hit some certain mass- say 80 ACTIVE youth just as a starting number.

Support the idea with some programs from National/Council, like maybe a couple new positions and some guidelines. Perhaps make the project a leadership option for rank?

Parent unit would probably form a planting team of a new SM, new CC, and a few youth leaders. The parent troop offers a starting package of some gear and/or money (with the understanding that it is a LOAN and repayment is expected as the new unit grows.)

Ideally, we'd somehow be able to advertise that these are related units, and I can see some sort of 'inter-unit mentoring' occuring as well.

As far as improving the leaders, my best suggestion would be to simply require SOME form of training (more than Fast Start ideally) before the badges can be obtained. This would probably require some reworking of the training program, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. It would be nice to figure out some way to require annual recertification as well.

Dan-

I'm a big fan of the Handbook being one of those books you'd want on a desert island and/or being a straightforward handbook. I'd vote against the novel idea as such FOR THE MAIN HANDBOOK.

However, I think it would be wonderful if there was something like that for more pleasureable reading. Actually, I'd love to see a well done series of adventure books done with a Scouting theme written for younger Scout-age boys.

Moving quality unit to under unit numeral pushed position patch off shirts with smaller sleeves- we already have CSP, veteran unit bar, numerals, position patch and trained strip on that sleeve.

As for traditions- I am all for keeping taditions that make and made sense. The floppy and often flimsy Colors never made much sense to me- kinda like the Sports and Academics Pins.

I think we could come up with a better plan if we put our heads to it.

Belt loops are out- the Cub belt is one size and the Scout is another- unless we asked all Webelos ot wear the tan- buit then the S&A program loops would not fit.

I KNOW this is WAY off topic, but I'd sorta like to see the whole Cub/Webelos advancement and recognition program re-worked so the boys earned recognition 'small and big'- small recognitions would be a pin and would be awarded for 'dabbling' in a topic area- sort of like the old Boy Scout belt loops, or the S&A loops, Electives, etc.

Big awards would be Merit Badge-like patches earned for digging deeper into a subject.

Ranks would require so many pins and so many patches.

This way, we could use a Cub Scout sash to display accomplishments and clean up the uniform some. Sahses are also great for memories!

We used to be a sister pack to a weak troop- a truly horrible relationship for both of us in many ways.

In general, the relationship is rather complex and depends on a lot of things- CO's expectations, unit leadership and their relationship, other units in the area, and more.

If I were you, I'd try to establish a strong ground-floor relationship. Become good friends, offer as much help as you reasonably can, and see what the two of you can accomplish together.

At least there is no baggage this way!

We also only used the colors at ceremonies. In fact, they tend to pop off and shed pins so easily that they become a liability at more active meetings!

The colors are a traditional element of Cub Scouting with a rich history behind them, and I'd vote them outta here in a heartbeat! At least they are better than the hat pin idea.