madkins007

Yeah, I know they are seperate- but keeping the specific terms straight is tough for us neophytes. Whose brilliant idea was that anyway? I'm a middle-aged guy who has been trying to keep up with a lot of other stuff and they do THAT to us. Naughty naughty!

(Hypothetical breakroom conversation...)

Coworker: So, Mad, how long ya been doing this Scout thing?

Madkins007: Oh, since 1994 when my son entered Tiger Cubs.

Coworker: Wow! So, tell me, what does the BSA have against homosexuals? I mean, we know that homosexuals and pedophiles are different situations, and I know you have some rules about groups of 3 or something to protect people. So what's the deal?

Me: I don't know how to answer that,let me find a better resource for you. Try calling the Scout Exec at the local Scout office, or let me give you my commisioner's home phone number so you can call them and they'll call you back.

Coworker: That's OK. I guess I am surprised that the BSA works that way on big issues. I woulda thought they'd try using you guys as sort of a grass-roots tool to get their side of the story heard. Oh well. So, have you seen the new XR-7000 in the shop?

(Hypothetical conversation at recruiting night...)

Potential volunteer: OK, here is my app. I've also provided a resume and several character references. I've been a teacher for years with excellent reviews and commendations for my work with youth. Letters of support from my minister, boss, and leaders of other youth programs I've worked with.

Leader: Wow! I'm impressed. This is great. It looks like you'll be a tremendous asset to the unit. I also see your background check comes out sparkly clean, and our Chartering Org even put in a good word for you! And just look at all these testemonials from kids you've worked with! Gee whiz!

Potential: There is just one little thing, though... I did not notice a place to note sexual orientation. You see, I'm gay but I don't show it in public, just like straight people don't flaunt that all the time either. I thought the BSA did not like guys like me, but I did not see anything about it on the application. What's that all about?

Leader: I don't know how to answer that,let me find a better resource for you. Try calling the Scout Exec at the local Scout office, or let me give you my commisioner's home phone number so you can call them and they'll call you back.

Potential: Ooooh-kay. So, can you take the app anyway?

Leader: I don't know how to answer...

Potential: (interrupting) Never mind.

I don't see LPC as an anchor in any way- because he saw the glitch, saw his strengths, and made changes.

To me, an anchor is the person who is actively resisting changing their erroneous and hurtful ways. I have seen few anchors (at work or in Scouts) change.

The glitch in the 'anchors and sails' bit is that MOST people are other parts of the ship, not necessarily pulling it along, but not holding it back, either. Some of these folk can indeed be put to better use that allows their skills and interests to more fully blossom. Others may develop into anchors. Yet others (most?) are mostly there to help in some small way but their real loves lie elsewhere.

Making sails... much less making sails out of anchors... is not a skill I have. I know some of the wonderful BSA programs (Woodbadge, PTC, etc.) can go a long way to fanning one's passion for the BSA but I am not sure I could get any of the anchors I have known to go.

I'm a volunteer with an interest in youth, magic, computers, and a lot of other stuff. If I knew how to make sails and convert anchors, I'd probably be in a much higher paying job and in a lot of demand.

If ANYONE knew how to reliably accomplish this, they would be some of the highest paid and most demanded consultants on Earth. I have yet to hear of a motivational speaker or life coach that could turn someone around without the person's active assistance.

I am now solidly in Bob White's camp. If I know of an anchor that is sinking a unit and we can't seem to get around him or her after a reasonbable (but not protracted) period- I'm out of there.

I watched a troop suffer for 10 years with a couple terrible anchors in place- people that once were regarded as sails council wide. The troop rarely had more than 10 boys in that decade- and only 3 or 4 of our 50 or so Webelos crossed into it. No Eagles in 10 years, and only a few over 1st Class. Retention was terrible except for the sons of the leaders- and even they never advanced.

Many of the pack leaders, including me, offered to help in the nicest ways we possibly could. It was turned down. The one time I THOUGHT we had a plan in place and I went to the troop as a new 'ASM in training', I was ignored- not introduced to the troop, not given a single task, snubbed when I tried to help, etc.

At the same time, I discovered the troop leadership was saying some horrible things about the pack- especially our CM. The COR was reluctant to do anything because of the SM and ASM's roles in the CO.

We did not have a commish to talk to (another story), and were being bounced back and forth between districts, so no DE was going to go to bat for us. Heck- many years in a row they had too few boys to recharter but the DE would let them skate 'for just one year'- supposedly to protect the very low and historic unit numeral.

My son and I even joined again a few years later, with me as just a helpful parent and MB counsellor. Still a horrible pit, still the same leadership. Things were supposed to be different but they were definately not.

If the plug had been pulled on this unit- even if only by the DE doing his job and not rechartering them for the 3rd or 4th year in a row with low numbers- I have no doubt that some of these families would have found good troops and made Eagle years ago.

Some units can be saved- some cannot... at least, not by us!

Oddly enough, I am more irritated by the idea of 'Eagling out' than I am about 'paper Eagles'.

When my adult leaders complain about older Scouts or younger Eagles 'getting too busy' for Scouting with school, work and a budding social life, I get a little irked.

I had thought that we were trying to help these guys become 'men of good character', ready to go out and share what they learned with the world. It never occured to me that we were supposed to keep them in the meetings for the rest of their life.

Heck, I even wanted to contact employers and coaches (with the Scout's permission) to see if the Scout was a decent leader and good person for them and let that count as Scout Spirit for the folk who can't make all the meetings.

Personally, I think the best compromise is for the troop to maintain accurate records, and make them available to the Scout when asked- but to expect that the Scout is doing his own tracking and is responsible for his own advancement.

I think EagleDad's story demonstrates that we can easily make things TOO easy for the Scouts with every good intention. On the other hand, I'd hate to think about scenarios where a Scout looses key paperwork, or uses a bad system for a while then gets his act together and wants to move.

The adult leaders and troop should provide a safety net, but not necessarily a cattle prod.

Those danged meeting-time MB classes!

We have about a 10-20% completion rate from those, and Scouts complain bitterly about meetings that are too much like school- yet any talk of trying to change things is met with a howl from the Scouts and old-timers.

We tried to do them in ways that met the requirements buy were also fun- only to have virtually no one ever do the 'at home' parts.

One time we did 'Citizenship in the World', and the guy who usually ran it begged off after the schedule was set. No big loss- he ran it pretty lamely, but no one else wanted to step up.

I tool it on as a challenge and managed to get the Scouts pretty interested by taking an odd tack- I had them figure out which countries we could take over with our troop.

They had to find a country that we would want, that had no strong diplomatic ties to other countries that would step in and beat us up, etc., etc., etc. They had to figure out how the World Court, UN, etc. all would come into play and so on.

It was great... for a couple sessions. Some kids did some homework and found wonderful targets (Tulolu?) Others just whiffed it (Ireland?) We had some good insightful discussions, and then... about 1/2 way into the scheduled sessions, attendence plummeted. Out of 20 Scouts, only about 3 earned the badge- even though several only had a requirement or two left.

Our completion rate is only a little higher for MB days and summer camp if there is any 'do on your own' type work involved.

I am more and more convinced- we should NOT TEACH MB's in Scouting (with a few exceptions). Scouts should tackle them on their own based on their own motivations and interests. We can certainly test them after they've done the work, and we can teach the skills involved in other kinds of activities, but I am not sure it is our best use of resources to hold classes- especially when, in some units, the classes become 'earn the badge through sheer attendence'.

Like I said, I am Venture ignorant. The good news is that it is fixable!

I have not seen a live Venturer yet- which obviously does not mean there are none around here- it is a BIG council. Heck, even out Scout shop rarely sells any Venture-related stuff.

I KNOW career exploring is doing OK locally as my daughter is in a Police Explorer's group but I also know that it is not the same thing anymore.

(Sung vaguely to 'I'm a little teapot')

We were the Antelopes

swift and stout.

These are our antlers

Here is our snout.

When we get together

Hear us shout

WE ARE THE ANTELOPES

WATCH OUT!

I believe this makes 3 of us!

We told our DLs that they really ought to have an activity a week- pack meeting, den meetings, outing (with proper paperwork), etc.

Over the summer, we asked each DL (with some others helping) to host an activity a month open to the entire unit. The CM, ACM, and CC ran one as well, which gave us 4 or 5 per month- about one a week.

I think 'one a week' works nicely.

Other 'lessons' learned from this thread...

- It is our business to determine the morality of a game like D&D, rather than the parents.

- It is our right to confiscate personal property that is not illegal by the G2SS or actual area laws.

- That boy's time at camp (summer or weekend) needs to be 100% programmed, even their free time.

- We have to tell boys how to use their free time so it is used wisely.

- WE get to define what a wilderness or camping experience is for others based on our own preferences.

- We camp (summer and weekend) primarily to earn advancement.

Understand, I am not a fan of D&D (or other games that can consume long periods of time at a campout or meeting), of people mis-using their time, of devices on campouts that interfere with my enjoymnet of the outdoors, etc.- I am just not sure it is in our best interestes to behave in the ways listed above.

Here is what *I* have learned so far from this thread...

"Scouts is about advancement. All activities should be advancement centered." (paraphrased from several posts)

I'm going to go off on a bit of a rant about this issue- forgive me, please!

Advancement IS NOT what Scouting is about, and any unit that puts advancement front and center is making a TERRIBLE mistake! Boy Scouts is about learning and doing new things, and personal growth. We recognize SOME of this growth with advancement.

Scouts should not take the Computer MB to earn a patch or to fill a dead slot in a schedule- they should take it because it seems interesting. The REAL reward to ANY advancement is the new skills and knowledge learned.

We teach knots... sometimes. Some of us teach the basic knots- show how to tie, see them tie, sign off and move on. Whoopie. We wonder why the boys can't tie a knot later and we blame them for their lack of interest.

Some of us teach the fundamental knot skills and a series of knots designed to teach the concept rather than earn the check point. Once they know the basics, we look for places to apply them, to teach new knots, and to see the Scouts USE the skills in real life. We hold knot tying games and challenges, and don't worry a lot about whether the boys will retain it, because we know they will.

These guys may not be gathering check points quite as fast, but they are having more fun and actually learning stuff.

There are a few things that we CANNOT do (G2SS prohibited, illegal/immoral, too expensive, etc.) but pretty much anything else ought to be at least worthy of consideration! Sure we don't give badges for skateboarding or video games. So what? There is no rule that says if there is no badge for it, we don't do it.

Please, please, please don't confuse cause and effect. Scouts should be learning stuff because it is fun to do or because they see the value in it, NOT to earn another piece of cheaply embroidered cloth.

Your local 'feed and grain' store will carry huge bags of the stuff at dirt cheap prices- near enough to wholesale for most purposes.

If I may offe a few ideas on bird feed...

1. Contact some local experts with no commercial interest in the situation about the right birdseeds for your area. What attracts what birds, what germinates or not if it falls to the ground? What is the best way to offer the various seeds (tube feeder, pan feeder, ground scatter, etc.) Audobon, local nature center, county extension service...

2. Find or make a little give-a-way booklet on the best way to use any of the seeds you offer or feeding in general.

3. ANYONE can get cheapo 'multipurpose' seed for dirt cheap. Offer better seeds with more specific purposes- cardinal mix, songbird mix, etc.

4. Most cheap mixes are full of various filler seeds that almost nothing eats, but fills the bag to make it look like a better value. A simple sign explaining this should boost sales.

5. When we did this several years ago (not through Scouts), we had the best luck with gallon-sized Zip-Lock bags of specialty mixes (weighed out to so many pounds of seed- not overfilled), and gallon milk jugs of our 'general' mix. Decent looking computer-generated labels identified the contents.

6. We boosted sales also by offering some hand-made feeders on the side. Those were sold more as a 'garage sale' format with the individuals earning 75% of the sale price.

Cajun- I knew you were good about that.

We too had a situation where an older administration of eiether the pack or troop hurt the relationship between the Scouts, church, and school. I am vague on exactly what happned but it hurt both units for years.

Even today, after a crew of us worked hard to build the unit nearly from scratch to about 40 boys at the peak (representing nearly 40% of the avaiable students!), the pack is back down to about 9 boys in part because someone involved in the old scandals got involved again somehow.

Makes you pretty sensitive to things, sometimes, doesn't it?

Yeah, I've always felt a little bad about the flag bit. I did not mean to single anyone out and only commented about the hats since there were about a dozen guys wearing hunting caps, etc. on a brisk day and I just figured that detail slipped their minds. Had the other guy not removed his hat I had no intention of saying a word about it or waiting- I just nodded to him then started the calls.

My name is Madkins and I am Venture ignorant.

As a unit leader, I have NO idea what it can do for our unit, other than the little bit I heard about in training.

Since I don't know about it, I can't really promote it within my unit, or at Roundtable, etc.

What I'd really like, however, is SOME tool to help recapture Scouting excitment in my older Scouts- maybe even my drop outs or that group that just hangs out in the corner.

I'd LOVE to see a high-energy program offered to my unit- a short, powerful (DEW-like) 'commercial', some hands-on stuff, a few Venture Scouts in uniform pumped up with energy, etc. The presentation should appeal to leaders, Scouts, and parents and be cool enough that the flyer itself drags rarely seen guys back to the meeting.

Man, if I saw something like that, I'd brag it up to the CO and get them to show it to THEIR Venture-age youth and I bet I'd have a leader or two begging to be Advisors, etc. when (not if- if the program worked) we start our own crew.

Hopefully, one of the presentors would be willing and able to help us through the first wobbling steps.

Gee, how would I find out about such a program? Maybe I'd notice it at a Roundtable- either given as a demo program there, or as a couple of Venture members work a high-energy 'sign up for info' table.

Yeah, they could offer some sort of informational open house or something, and I might make it.. if it is not Popcorn night or my time to buy groceries for the campout... or my night to watch my 1 hour a week of TV (which is what they REALLY mean by the 'only 1 hour a week' bit!)

Another place I might notice it is as flyers posted in every outdoor store in town- every place related to boating, hiking, canoeing, skiing, etc. If I noticed it here, I might be moved to attend one of the 'open house socials' or other listed events. I might even notice it if there was a booth or table outside one of these stores on a busy weekend being manned by an enthusiatic young person, maybe running a 'try it yourself' game or two related to their crew.

Hmmm... don't really have a full, working, strong Venture program yet? How would I know from the presentation? If it is implied that this is a strong, vibrant program and I am being encouraged to start my own crew, how would I know if I am seeing the ONLY other Venture Scouts in the council?

BW said "What would happen in your specific professional environment to an employee who wandered the break room spewing complaints in hopes that the management might "possibly" wander in and be educated?"

LOL! Anyone who complains in the break room HOPING to be overheard would generally be considered bit off level.

However, in our company, 'gripe and grumble' sessions are considered a healthy venting outlet as long as they don't turn into a negative attitude. Upper level managers often share in these sessions in the break rooms, gym, smoking areas, etc. and we sometimes see results from them. On the other hand, we also sometimes get good insider info as to why some things are the way they are.

Our company is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they understand that a unhappy/unsatisfied worker is not automatically a bad person. They also understand that sometimes there is just 'something' intangibly wrong and it can take some give and take to figure out what the real problem is*.

*- I think an example of this in Scouting is the on-going grumble about the uniform pants. There is SOMETHING in that topic that causes some disruption in the Force, but it is difficult to quantify. It is not just fit, style, durability or price, and it is not even just about the pants necessarily- they may be just a visible symptom of something else.

Kittle- you do sound a little frayed around the edges. I hope things get better.

It still sounds like there is something going on other than the different activities. With so few people, communication may not be the key point, but something else seems to be going on.

I always taught leaders in Scouting that our key #1 rule was KISMIF- Keep It Simple Make It Fun. If the leaders ain't having fun, ain't no one having fun!

What has to happen here to make it fun for you again? Other parents stepping up to take over? Use the next couple months to see who you think can do it, then ask them to step up. Let them serve as Assistant whatever for a few months to get trained (both official and on the job training), then to take over at some point (Feb, at B&G?) while you stand nearby to offer support and help them find and train their own assistant.

Would a stronger committee or better annual planning help you enjoy yourself more? It would probably help others as well. There are things you can do to either make or help this happen.

Identify this issue for yourself and your husband, and try to get back ot loving the program!

(One thought- maybe one of you is the Cub parent, and the other is the Scout parent- that way neither of you has a super heavy schedule and you help 2 units for the price of one!)

Cajuncody, I know you won't do this, but I'd like to mention to be careful to not play games or try to 'trick' or bully your way in. We want a smooth working relationship with the school and it is absolutely amazing how fast a small incident will be broadcast to all teachers and parents.

That aside, I DID have another idea- can the Scouts or Scout leaders volunteer to raise and lower the flags for a few days or a week? Personally, I think sheer visibility is a key factor in all levels of recruiting.

Another possibility that we kicked around locally is to put together a 'youth programs' directory of all programs associated with the school- BSA, GSUSA, sports, clubs, etc. Let local commercial programs for youth (dance, art, independent sport programs, etc.) take out ads for pay to cover printing costs so you can distribute the thing for free. Offer each volunteer program some space to advertise their program and key dates/times/numbers/etc.

From my chats with several administrators, something like this would be allowed- even if only as a 'pick one up if interested' basis (you know, piled up in key locations with a 'take one' note).

It would take some work for the first year, but after that it ought ot go easier. Ideally, the PTA or some other school support group would take it on as a project!

PNWScouter-

Heck, all I was planning was to show that wearing the uniform sends messages- but your idea of having tghe uniform somehow transmit skills and knowledge would be pretty dang cool!

Do you think that would drive up the prices?

BW- Sorry, I guess I'm getting gun shy! the comment "Its a big program, you cannot make good assumptions based only on the little bit you alone see." made me think that you thought that I was thinking something. And please don't ask me to write that bit out again!

John in KC-

In real life, I have only been a uniform cop twice- despite having been a CM, SM, training chair, roundtable staff, and Scout store employee.

In one instance, at a leader's flag ceremony, I asked the assembly to remove non-uniform headgear, and waited a heartbeat. one guy did not remove his fedora-like hat and I caught his eye and nodded at his hat. He reluctantly removed it- and many other people saw what happened. Afterwards, he sought me out and insisted the hat was unifrom wear. It was the expedition hat, and I suggested to him that it indeed was not.

He said he had just bought it a couple days ago on the advice of a guy at the Scout shop, that he was looking for a good-looking hat for all actvitities and had been assured that this fit the bill.

I almost laughed out loud. I asked if he himself picked it up or not, and he told me his wife had. I could not stifle my laugh when i told him I was the guy who sold it to his wife, and was the guy who he worked with on the phone. I reminded him that I had told him it was an approved 'activity' hat, but nothing about it being an approved uniform hat. We did not sell a lot of these hats, but we sure as heck knew they were not in the Insignia Guide or any of our update memos about being uniform wear.

What we had was a simple miscommunication. I assured him if he wished I would return the hat for him and send him the refund but he was otherwise happy with it so we parted ways with no hard feelings.

The other time was during a segment on uniforming in Cub Leader traiing in which my uniforming segment trainer was discussing that proper uniforming was both a little tough to achieve, but also easy with a little help (Insignia Guide and inspection sheets). This particular trainer IS a uniform cop- even a bit of a uniform nazi. In past sessions (before I was chair) this person would nearly ridicule people in less than perfect uniform- even calling them up to point out errors.

During this session the trainer was using my uniform to demonstrate placement [FYI- my uniform was spot-on perfect. I may not like the thing in some ways, but everything is exactly where it should be. The ONLY 'off' bit was my belt- the BSA web belt is a bit skimpy for me, so I used Big and Tall men's work belt with a BSA buckle- the trainer could not tell.]

The trainer repeated the bit about proper uniforming not being difficult and I stepped in. I mentioned that our trainer had a flaw in their uniform to test everyone- did anyone catch it? They did not, so I turned the trainer around and showed that the neckerchief had pulled up and was only about 3" long. I helped pull it back down and the program went on.

In our units, we always did a pre-inpsection the week before an official inspection. The pre's were harsh, and specific details were written down for the Scout and their parents to work on- but the reults were not recorded anywhere. For our 'real' inspections- we were lambs! Crooked insignia? If it was close, it was good! Neckerchiefs? Never measured'em, just a brief eye-balling. We looked for overall neatness and a good effort. But you know what? Most of our Scouts were in great uniforms! We also did quick inspections on each other before every training session and roundtable.

Show'em, teach'em, help'em, answer their questions... but I never, ever go up to Scouts or Scouters and point out things wrong with their uniform. I may ASK about something unusual that catches my eye- like the guy who comes to RT in an authentic 1950's era leaders uniform (same guy has worn a Air Explorers uniform to meetings before!} or the guy who tricked his uniform out with dress snaps (the tiny ones) and liked to switch things when people were not looking ("didn't that used to be a retro OA lodge flap? And weren't you a SM a minute ago??")

This is a slightly different venue though. We may offer strong opinions, but we have no way of enforcing them, and most of us don't loose any sleep over it one way or another.

You can safely wear your Philmont shorts to any of my programs or meetings and I shan't say boo about it. If you met me later and asked me what I thought, I'd probably say they looked spiffy and I wish the BSA would make them uniform options for us.

If that is being a uniform cop in real life, so be it.

I know the request for a plan was not addressed to me, but I am in a similar state of mind as Prairie Scouter, so I thought I wouold share MY plan.

Where I work, before we bring a problem forth to upper levels of management, we are expected to have (paraphrasing our handbook)-

1. Crafted an intelligent and well-stated 'question', outlining the percieved problem and what we think would qualify as a good resolution.

2. Done our homework to research options and the ramifications of the options.

3. Selected a solid course of action from the options that accomplishes at least most of the goals, and

4. Determined a likely course of action to impliment them.

It is also assumed that we will solicit help, opinions, and input from co-workers, affected departments, customers, etc.

Oft-times in Scouting, I think I see a concern and have some thoughts, only to discover that either the concern is largely imaginary or really lies along a different direction. Concerns that seem more widely accepted have ramifications that I had not seen or have options I never thought of.

One of the strengths of forums like these is the chance to float our ideas out there to see if there is indeed a consensus.

Since it has not happened yet, I have nothing to advance to any higher committee. If we ever do come up with a killer suggestion that is widely (but not necessarily universally) agreed upon, the next step would be to determine how to advance it and who would champion it.

Besides- there is every possibility that National (or 'the right people') DO monitor this kind of forum!

Bob White's points are right on.

One of the issues involved in Cub's Family Camping is who is responsible? If something goes wrong, who is liable? Who is in charge of any specific youth at any specific time?

Family camping may sound like a cop out or something, but it is designed to help make sure ewach boy is safe and watched, and that no leader will end up bearing the wrath of the legal system should something go wrong.

Don't forget that the BSA insurace is a 'back up' program AND won't cover you if you are not following BSA policys.

Boy Scout group camping works because each youth has been trained in how to do the many jobs needed, and there is a leadership structure in place to help keep everything going well. This structure does not exist in Cub Scouting.

However, it sounds like the bigger issue may be communication and coordination within the pack. You may want to discuss the confusion and how to avoid it in the future at an upcoming leadership or committee meeting.

LOL! Bob White- I wasn't advocating doing away with it or anything, just simple curiosity.

My next wonder is if any volunteer Scouters ever wear it, and it is still just for my own education.

Thanks!