Lisabob

LongHaul, Nope, didn't get it. Go ahead and email me if you want: cubleadertraining@yahoo.com

Maybe this discussion would be assisted by some examples. Here are three. All are real. In the first two, these are situations that happened in a pack that my son was part of. 1) A boy's mother approached her son's DL about YP issues. Specifically, mom wants to know if the BSA has any material that could be used to help a boy who is living in a domestic violence situation. From the sound of things it seems as though mom and possibly the boy are being physically abused by the adult male member of the household (dad/boyfriend, I'm not sure which). No obvious bruises and no clear-cut statement to that effect, but not an entirely unreasonable assumption based on behavior and comments made, either. 2) A boy's mother is rather open about the "business" she was running from her home, with the boy present. She was allegedly engaging in behavior that is illegal and probably by most judgments, also immoral. While the boy in question wasn't directly involved and may not have known that these things were even happening, he was in the house. 3) A boy's parent openly acknowledges that they have had their license revoked for various infractions of a serious nature, but drives anyway, including driving the boy around (to cub scouts and elsewhere) in a car that hasn't been registered, isn't insured, may have fake plates, and almost certainly wouldn't pass state safety/inspection standards. I'd be interested to know how people would respond to these in the context of what we're taught about YPT.

I was at a cub scout gathering earlier today and someone mentioned that a pack in our town was on the edge of extinction. Part of the problem is that the pack is pretty new, only 3-4 years old, to start with and had split off from an existing, much larger pack. Apparently the new pack never really grew roots and as the founding adult leaders and boys either left scouts or graduated on to boy scout troops, the pack size has dwindled. Right now the pack has under 10 boys, of whom 6-7 are Webelos and the rest are wolves/bears. No Tigers at all. The pack is sponsored by a PTO and draws from an elem school of about 600 kids. While there are other packs in town, most recruit from "their" specific schools so there isn't a lot of competition for boys from this particular school. All the other packs in town have 15-50 boys with similar or smaller bases to recruit from so this pack ought to be able to survive too. Here's my question. Whose job is it to try to help this pack? Is it the existing pack leaders alone? Is it the district membership committee? Is it the pack that they split off from a few years ago, which doesn't really want to become a "mega pack" again in the future? Is it local troops who might want to see a healthy pack from which to recruit? Is it the UC (ha! I doubt they have one) If you believe it is a district membership function to help struggling units survive, just how far should they go in terms of procuring or providing leadership? If you believe it isn't anybody's but the pack's problem, does that mean that we sit by and watch this pack, which on the face of it has all the pre-conditions for success (a vibrant area scout program, a decent-sized recruiting base), fail?

True Ed, but the same can be said of blue cards or rank advancement cards, and for that matter, signatures can be forged on them too. I hate to start down that road (so much for "a scout is trustworthy!"). If I understood the original post, these are scouts in his troop. So surely someone would have noticed if Bobby Scout suddenly "jumped" from TF to Life? Or showed up with a sash full of MB patches all of a sudden, with no clear explanation or recollection from anyone in the troop about how or when they'd been earned? For completed, recorded ranks and MBs, as others state, this is really a non-issue because people should be able to provide back up records (if it is deemed to be necessary to go that far in order to verify). In this case, I just don't see how having or not having the accompanying award card is all that important. I know some troops that don't even hand out the recognition cards - they only hand out the cloth badges.

If they have the badge then why do you doubt that they earned the rank? The cards can be purchased at your scout shop. Now if you are talking about blue cards for a MB that wasn't finished yet, then that's up to the scout and the MB counselor in large part. Some would require the boy to start over, others would operate on the principle that "a scout is trustworthy." It really depends on the situation.

then there's also the path-of-passive-aggression: run a concession stand just outside the doorway to the event! Buffalo, whatever you choose to do about the concessions, make sure to voice your serious displeasure to the SE about his dumb move here.

Hmm, Scoutldr, I don't know about all that. In the several packs and troops that I've become familiar with, leaders were not chosen so much because they were determined to be good role models - more like, because they (we) were the ones who were dumb enough to volunteer. Now please don't take that the wrong way! I've met some wonderful people through scouting and I do believe that the majority of us who are willing to pay our "hour a week" to be Scouters are, in fact, pretty decent folk. But I've also met more than a few people who are Scouters and who do not measure up as "good role models and teachers" in my book, that's for sure. Also I do think we need to allow for a little difference in ages w/ regard to Eamonn's twinkie comment. No way I'm letting a cub scout eat that junk on any sort of regular basis at a pack or den event! Boy Scouts, I'm likely to want to see limits (set by the SM and PLC) on what sorts of junk the guys can "count" as "meals." A crew, now, we're talking about older youth. I'm still not thrilled to see them eating junk but I guess the role of a crew or ship's advisor is per force more hands off.

Thanks emb, I agree heartily. If I can lay hands on it before Saturday then I will immediately disabuse our training chair and DE of the notion that it doesn't exist and maybe convince them to order a full set for the district. If I can't get a copy before that time then I'll have to follow up later, which I will, because this marks the third time now I've been informed that the syllabus doesn't exist and I'm real tired of it. Not to sound ungrateful about the person who stepped up to be our training chair - she's very nice and she does a better job than the person she replaced (who needed to hang his hat up 20 years ago, I think!). And most of all, she agreed to take the position! But she just doesn't seem to be one for planning these things out. Whereas for me, that approach epitomizes a great deal of what is wrong with the way "training" tends to go in the BSA!

Once again I've been asked sort of last minute to help out with a cub leader training session this weekend. While I am really happy to be useful and I think I have a good sense of the program, I'm not happy about doing things last minute and on the fly - especially when it comes to running training sessions and imposing on other people's spare time! So although I said yes, once again I asked for a copy of the cub leader specific training syllabus (so I could prep) and once again I was told "there is no such thing." I happen to know that there is because people here have referred to it on numerous occasions in the past. I'd like to quickly get a copy to share with my district training chair and DE. Even more, I'd like to see it myself in order to get ready for this training. If you have an electronic copy of it, could you please send it to me at cubleadertraining@yahoo.com ? Thank you!

Just a small aside John, about those survival mirrors. My son carries an old CD - says it works as well as a mirror would, weighs less and is a little less likely to break, cheaper too. New material, same old purpose.

Our scouts pay a camp-out fee about two weeks prior to the event and that includes money for food. Our policy reads that refunds will only be made if no costs have been incurred and that includes user fees for the campsite as well as food and any other expenses. So, although we rarely have people back out last minute anyway, when they do, they know better than to ask for their money back. We also rotate grubmaster and the patrols usually pick a different person each time. In the NSP sometimes the troop guide or (on occasion) the ASM patrol advisor will go with them but otherwise it is up to that one scout to get the food. We've had a few minor disasters but no one has starved yet (in a serious pinch the adults would help out but if it is something minor then the patrol will have to improvise a bit). They learn from these disasters. I know the campout when my son's patrol planned on having sandwiches and french toast but they left bread off their shopping list was a bit of an eye opener! Same with the one where they bought a bunch of ice cream in June and had no way to keep it cold all weekend. Push your committee to give the boys a little more individual responsibility here - they can do this and it is not going to hurt them. "Train them, trust them, let them lead" RIght?

I would drop the concessions too. And I would also let the SE know that he needs to start looking for a new host for next year's event. No wonder he had a hard time getting someone to do it this year, if this is how people are treating willing volunteers!

Of course this was a major topic of discussion among adults at the troop meeting tonight. I don't understand something though. Generally, as Gonzo says, when you have a prescription you take it regularly. Skipping days is a bad idea. However, several parents told me that their children take medication for ADD/ADHD and that their doctors tell them not to dose the children on weekends and school holidays. I have no idea how common that is or if it makes better sense to those of you with more experience than I have in dealing with children who have been diagnosed with this condition. I also don't claim to know if that was the case with the scout who was lost (and found) in NC. I do know we've had a few boys in the troop who seem to be on this pattern though, and it doesn't shock me to discover that these guys are often sort of hard to handle at camp outs! I don't know if my reaction to this should be "What were those doctors and parents thinking?!" or, "Wow, those must be some pretty horrible meds if a kid needs a break from them on a weekly basis!" This assumes that the kids were correctly diagnosed to start with... At any rate, we do ask parents to be as forthcoming as possible with us about their children's medical conditions, and to make sure to send along medication. We have a couple of people with an appropriate background to dispense meds on camp outs too. But if parents don't disclose and/or don't send the meds, I'm not sure there is a whole lot that can be done most of the time.

(Mff! mNff! PiTouie! Phew - there, that's better.) Now hang on a moment there Kudu, before you try to stuff any more words into my mouth - I've had enough, thanks. I am not interested in proposing legislation of the type you suggest. If you are, great - do so. Personally I don't care much for the DRP. I think we do ourselves more harm than good on the rare occasion when the DRP causes people not to join, or to be removed after joining. I think that if it were to be taken seriously by most units, then the problem it causes would quickly become apparent, because then we'd see units turning boys away left and right. And if that happened, I suppose there might be enough of a ground swell to change or remove it. As it is, few people, even among those active in scouting, know what the DRP is and even fewer care. Most scouters completely ignore it. Another reflection of the fact that (as far I as I can tell), religion really isn't that "core" to the program after all. But I recognize the BSA's right to have the DRP. And the rest of us have to make a choice - accept it or don't. "Don't" means, don't join. Accept it could mean a range of things, as a matter of practical interpretation. No, actually my thought is that if the BSA feels it is important for religion to be a "core" of the various BSA programs, then fine, there are ways to do that - as the cub requirements do reasonably well already - without being offensive to any given religion and by putting the responsibility for teaching/learning in the hands of the scout, their family, and community religious leaders, rather than with the scout leader . If the BSA leadership aren't interested in doing that, then they should quit pretending to the contrary, which opens the way to dropping or modifying the DRP too. I'd support the former if it were done in a truly non-sectarian way which, I believe, is difficult but still possible. It might even be quite interesting. It could open up the way for boys to learn about A religion, not necessarily THEIR religion, and might provide an opportunity for "non-theist" (as I think John called them umpteen posts back) boys to understand why religion is important to so many people. I'd support the latter more, but I doubt it will happen.

Thank you, Kudu, for a good laugh! I'm all for that method.

Someone in another thread brought this up and suggested it as a good joint webelos-scout activity - thanks! Maybe you are all aware of this already but no one in my district seems to have ever heard of it before, so I figured I'd share it a little more widely here. 10th Annual Jamboree on the Trail, Saturday May 12th 2007 Go for a hike "together" with scouts from around the world. Check it out at : http://jott.org/ I noticed that if you want to receive the patch in time for the event, you have to register by March 31st. It sounds like you could still register later if you didn't mind waiting for the patch.

(ducking head a bit) Ahem, yes Barry, I would like to be able to honestly claim that it was all about me being patient... but people who know me would probably laugh! Patience isn't always one of my best qualities although I try. More like, I've attempted not to voice my occasional frustration and bewilderment about why he didn't bother to just-hand-the-book-to-the-guy-standing-next-to-him-and-get-it-signed (!) to my son and have found a nearby friendly adult's shoulder to chew on instead. You're absolutely right though, this is a developmental process and he'll get to it when he's ready. And I guess I've come to realize that a bit more these days, even though he has only been in the troop for two years. It was hard to have a little perspective in that first year because, well, it was the first year. I can only imagine how proud I'll be of him and how much more he will grow, in another three or four years. Anyway, setting my son's particular case aside for a moment - in the thread I spun off from, a few people were voicing concern about the fact that their troop has 13/14 year old scouts "stuck" at TF, and what to do about it. I guess what I intended by this thread was to suggest that as long as they're being active in the program, it may be better to have a few happy older TF scout than a bunch of very young 1st Class and Star scouts who are totally at a loss for how to proceed. (And sure, I realize some younger guys really are ready to tear through the ranks - good for them too! - but I suspect that they're not all that common either. Most, though not all, of the boys who I've seen do this in the last couple of years are being pushed - hard - by their parents, rather than responding to some inner drive at age 10-11-12.)

I'm told by our current adv. chair and membership chair that using troopmaster makes it a lot easier to do online rechartering and online advancement reports. If that's true then there's a big benefit, because our council and others around here are slowly moving toward requiring online submissions. And for us, since our council office is over an hour away, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

"Ea, you didn't fail. Most of them just don't care anymore. If it either doesn't get them ahead, make them comfortable or feel good they figure why bother. There is so much apathy today toward the outdoors and conservation/enviromental related activities. " Ouch. Yes, there's apathy out there. It starts with their parents (and grandparents) though - ie, our generations, folks! I just think it is way too easy to take a "kids these days!" approach and write them off. Things have changed, sure, and some not for the better. But so what, that's beyond our control. We work with the boys as they come to us, or else we pack up our gear and get out of the game. They don't know who Hornaday was? Then teach 'em! You know what, I didn't either until a couple of years ago but I still enjoy the outdoors and have, all my life. Don't know about the rest of you but I've found that it doesn't take much to convince a kid that natural areas are worthy of conservation. They may not all grow up to be avid backpackers and campers, and like Eamonn's son, some are going to go on a hiatus from it for a while as they shift focus to other late-teen activities, but is the rare child that refuses to see the value and beauty of nature, once they've had even just a little bit of positive experience in the outdoors. Hey, it's part of our job to give them that experience!

To answer Beaver's question - our district and council hold a Fall, Winter, and Spring event. They have not run a summer camp in the past, although this year they're doing a 4-day, 3-night first year long weekend summer program (mini camp). Some troops around here ONLY go camping when the district arranges something so I guess I understand the desire to at least have one event each season. As for our troop, we rarely attend these events. Actually I'd kind of like to see the troop do these more often if only so that the boys can see how other troops do things and maybe learn from them too.

Christy, I hear you when you say you aren't all that familiar with the BSA program and don't quite know where to start. Many of us have been there, myself included. I guess the good news on that front is, there are many Scouters here and elsewhere who will be happy to share from our own experiences! One thing that I'm puzzled by is your CM's assertion that you should "forget the den" and focus more on the pack. I understand he probably is desperate for more help on the pack committee, but in my experience, a pack is only as strong as the dens that comprise it. So I think if I were you, first thing I'd be doing right now is volunteering to be the Wolf Den Leader for your son's pack next year. Most boy scout councils do their cub leader training in the spring and again in late Oct/early Nov so you could get Wolf Den Leader training pretty soon here and start planning for next year's den program NOW. Being a D.L. is probably one of the most fun and rewarding things you'll do - enjoy it! Second, I bet your son has friends, so why aren't they in scouts? It sounds as though you could use some more boys and you probably get along reasonably well with most of his friends' parents, right? Recruit a few of his friends to join and then enlist the parents as your helpers and cheer leaders. You may not want to commiserate too much about your current woes (don't scare them off!). Focus on what you can/will be doing to Keep it Simple, Make it Fun. Before you know it, you will have a strong den and that will go a long way toward improving the whole pack. Third, just because your pack isn't doing things doesn't mean your Den can't. Contact your council and ask about Cub Scouts Day Camp now - and then sign up your son and any new cubs you are able to recruit for his den (new scouts can join now and attend this year's day camp). Day camp is easy - all you have to do is show up and participate - and fun too. It is a great way to get people fired up about scouting. Share any info about day camp with the rest of your pack if you are able, but don't worry if they don't go - your den or even just you and your son can still do it. If you know some parents of boys who will be Tiger-aged soon, talk them into joining as soon as school ends this year and attending day camp with you too. Not only will that probably be a great intro to scouting for them, but you'll have some enthusiastic allies and potential Tiger Den Leaders already in line for the fall. Plus, having gone to day camp along with you, these new Tiger parents will have a much more active and positive mindset about how the program is SUPPOSED to work - you can gently inoculate them against the bad advice that YOU received this year! A lot of districts and councils even offer discounts to people who join as Tigers at the end of this school year, rather than waiting for fall. You might check and see if yours does this too. As for other activities, for the most part with cubs, your creativity (and common sense) are the boundaries. Go to training and make sure you understand what isn't allowed as per the BSA (paintball is out! Camping is somewhat limited for young scouts. There are a bunch of rules about water activities.). Familiarize yourself with his next rank handbook (wolf book). Start small. It is easier to add more later than to wear yourself out planning/running too much at the start. If you can swing it, plan one or two simple summer events to keep your son and his new scout buddies excited about scouts over the summer. This can be really simple - a field trip to somewhere in your town, a day at the park, county fair, zoo, a minor league ball game, etc.. Tie in a couple of simple activities from the Wolf book, maybe add a popsicle or other snack, and you're set. When you go to training, ask about something called the "program helps" guide. It is a schedule of monthly themes, games, activities, crafts, songs, etc. that you can (but aren't required to) use to plan your pack and den meetings. Even if you just pick and choose from it, this is a nice starter. And it lays out the structure for your meetings too. If for some reason you can't get to training anytime soon, at least check out the following BSA Online training courses, to be found here: http://olc.scouting.org/ You'll want to do Cub Leader Fast Start and Youth Protection Training. (The others are geared toward other parts of the BSA program, not Cubs). If you are registered as a leader, you can gain "credit" with your council for doing these online as long as you enter in your registration # and info first (don't know what these are? Contact your council and they can tell you). You have to do Den Leader training in person, but at least these will get you started in the meantime. So the good news is, it takes less work than you might think to help build a strong pack program. A few dedicated people make all the difference! Once your CM sees that he has some help, he may even be convinced to stay on as CM for another year.

Strong, trained den leaders. Whether you join with your son as a Lion or a Tiger, chances are high that there won't be a den leader in place for that group. But I'd want to see a culture of den leaders in the pack that bodes well for your son's future den. A fun pack program that includes a mix of activities and a reasonable outdoor emphasis. Do they do summertime activities? Do they encourage scouts to do day camp and/or resident camp? Do they have any pack camp outs? Do they do some kind of local conservation or service (even if it is scouting for food, at least it is outside!) ? Enthusiastic current leaders. Join a pack where the adults have fun working together rather than one where they're sniping at each other all the time, and you'll have more fun too (so will the boys). Does religious affiliation matter to you? Most packs in our area at least basically ignore the religious aspect of the program - it is either done at home with "Akela" or not done at all. If that aspect matters to you, look for a pack that will emphasize your family's beliefs, probably one chartered by a religious group that you belong to.

Yesterday I taught a Communications MB session to a group of scouts at our district's annual MB day. While I have some issues with the whole idea of a MB day, I kind of figured that if they were going to do it (and some of our scouts were going to attend) then I might as well at least do what I could to provide a decent and worthwhile experience for the guys. In the past they've been known to have MBCs read the MB book to them for two hours and then count this as "earning" the MB. BORING! In the course of the day I worked with about 40 scouts. Four or Five arrived with no book, no blue card, and/or no writing implement. "What's the Boy Scout Motto?" I asked? "Be Prepared!" they quickly answered. And that's all I said. Somehow they figured out how to get (at least) something to write with. Several found me later on in the day with blue cards in hand. Maybe next time they'll consider that ahead of time? Maybe I'm pipe dreaming too, who knows. One snarly older guy informed me that he was only there because some adult signed him up (parent or SM, I'm not sure) and he didn't want to participate at all. I think he was shocked when I told him I wasn't going to even try to "make" him participate. He wasn't prepared to earn the badge and that was ok, but I said, I knew he'd understand that I wasn't prepared to sign his blue card either. The thought that it was HIS responsibility to decide to earn the badge or not seemed to surprise him. Go figure. All we can do is help the scouts see the consequences of their actions. This is how they learn what "be prepared" means. Maybe it'll stick eventually.

My son is one of those nearly 13-year-old TF types that someone in the "Be Prepared" thread mentioned. He's been in the troop for 2 years. He goes on almost all the campouts, does most everything, has 10 or 11 merit badges, most of which he has earned or at least finished up on his own rather than at camp or in other big group settings, and he recently finished up a 6 month stint as PL, in which he served admirably, by the way. Most of his cohort are at or beyond 1st Class at this point and he's the only one of them still at TF. What's holding my son up? He's having fun and just doesn't care that much about rank advancement at this time. He continually "forgets" to get his book signed at camp outs and then doesn't follow up later on at meetings. In short, he's been unprepared to advance because he isn't interested in taking the personal responsibility to secure it, rather than because he isn't able to do the skills. This bugged the stuffing out of me for about the first 12-15 months because it was so silly. For lack of a pencil or an extra 2 minutes of effort to track down a signature he didn't get things signed and I couldn't understand it. I rarely said anything to him about it, but if I'm truthful, sometimes it was really hard not to! In all honesty I still don't understand it, but it no longer bugs me much. A couple of scouters, good friends and wiser than I, have managed to pound it into my head that it is his experience, not mine, and he'll get to rank advancement on his own. It helps that I have seen him having fun and growing/maturing as a result of his involvement in the program. It helps too, that I've seen several of our older scouts earn Life and Eagle as 16-17 year olds and these young men are solid examples of the qualities we all envision that an Eagle Scout would have. They weren't diminished for having earned these ranks late in their scout careers; rather, they might have been diminished if they had been pushed into the ranks before they were ready. These scouts are also the ones who my son identifies as his role models in the troop. I imagine he'll get moving on rank advancement sometime soon since, for summer camp, there are several MBs he wants to earn that have a 2nd Cl or above rank restriction placed on them (the camp's way of limiting class sizes, I think). So I suppose he'll get around to getting sign offs for 2nd Cl. over the next few months, or else he'll find himself doing the basketry MB at camp instead of the "cool" MBs he has picked out! When it matters to him - not to me - he'll become prepared.

Sometimes there seems to be some fuzziness about this in training. For example, I've heard trainers (and others) assert that webelos boys cannot wear their "old" beltloops any longer. This is untrue. However, SOME of the beltloops need to be earned, or re-earned, as a webelos scout in order to count for certain webelos activity pins. These are clearly stated in the webelos book (look at the last page of the activity pin in question - that's usually where you'll find this info about the loops). In that case, it's true that a loop earned as a tiger/wolf/bear would not "count" toward webelos advancement. By the time the guys are webelos, esp., webelos II, some of them have so many loops on their belts that there is hardly room for doubles. So what we did was to have them do the requirements again (challenging them to do more/better than the first time they earned it, as appropriate for their age and skill), but we awarded small "rocker patches" instead of duplicate beltloops. The patches are cheaper and can be worn on the red vests, whereas we found that expensive duplicate beltloops quickly got stashed in a drawer somewhere anyway. Hope this helps, have fun with your new webelos!