Lisabob

Sad to say we're not quite that good Oak Tree. Sorry for the lack of clarity - I meant to say we estimated that gas would be $3/gallon and planned accordingly. So much for that, with gas hitting 3.59 for the cheap stuff here this week.

Mostly hoping it doesn't go higher (not likely, I know). We're doing a 1500 mile trip to/from summer camp this year. When we started budgeting 18 months ago $3 seemed like a reasonably high-end estimate and we built in a fuel charge based on that estimate. Now we're looking at charging an extra $5 per family.

Thank you for the link Ed. I'm aware that Climb on Safely is a management course, much like Safe Swim and Safety Afloat. That's the issue - our council makes Climb on Safely available but no one seems to know anything about Climbing Instructor Training. Luckily, I have found another nearby council that has its own climbing facility (big time) and it appears that they do offer a council-level instructor training course a couple of times a year. So, now that I know what the Scouter in question actually needs in terms of training, it appears I'll also be able to help him get signed up for it. We'll work on NCS climbing director training in the future maybe...

Eh. I'm glad it was successful and everything. But we're SCOUTS. How about we do some camping with mom instead, hmm? (On that note, our district does a mom & son cub camp out, which is very popular and as an added benefit, it doesn't perpetuate gender stereotypes about what women like to do).

I'm with scoutldr. Why should the CO remain their CO in the future? Sponsorship is not a one-way street. Along with all of the above, I'd expect the youth leaders to contact the CO right away and explain to them why the scouts will not be at the fundraiser. You might already have done this but even so, make them do it too - and I don't see much need to tell them you've already done so. A little squirming on their end might be good for them.

May Wright-Patterson AFB trip June Hiking & fishing camp July Summer camp US Naval Academy visit en route to camp August (nothing planned) We'll throw in a fundraiser, a couple of service projects and maybe some patrol activities too, but those are the biggies. We take August off and start up again in Sept. when schools are back in session.

Thanks for the info. I think the problem may be that we don't have a council climbing director who is qualified to offer the instructor training course. That would be consistent with the blank looks and "no idea" answer that I got from our (otherwise pretty helpful) council pros. The adult in question is a longtime Scouter, former SM, knows how to work with kids, well-liked by the boys. And he has been involved in climbing on his own. I'm not in a position to evaluate his skill but I'd be surprised if he weren't already quite proficient. I think what he wants is to be able to run troop-level climbing activities. So it looks to me like the next logical step is to see whether some nearby council offers a council level training course. Thanks Beavah and OGE for helping me figure out what the options and rules are.

I'm trying to help out a fellow Scouter who wants to become a certified BSA climbing instructor and I could use a little clarification with regard to what trainings exist (other than Climb on Safely) for this activity. National camping school runs a week-long training session for BSA Climbing Supervisors (section 21). But I think this is more than one needs to just be a climbing instructor, right? Is there a council-level training offered and if so, what does it qualify a participant to do, upon completion? Our council staff has no information on this and referred me to the NCS training. Before I start bugging other nearby councils I want to make sure I'm asking about the right thing. Any info you have on this would be appreciated. Thanks!

I think I may be with JBlake on this one and actually that's a bit ironic because a) I'm a former range master of a cub day camp range where it was all about safety and respect for the fire arm first, and b) as a culture I think we glorify guns far too much, especially for young boys. In a nearby town not long ago there was a 12 or 13 year old boy who was shot to death by one of his peers - for $100 and some "fun" on a weekend. I find that so very sad. But, done well, I think such a demonstration could be both safe and fun. If it were me, I'd want the demo to be toward the end of the camp (maybe after the boys have all done their BB shooting) and I'd explicitly request that the trick shooters spend serious time talking about safety and training with the boys. If the demo is going to be before the boys have gone to the range, then the range master(s) need to be extra extra sure to talk clearly about the issue on a level that cub scout aged boys understand, prior to giving the boys access to the range. And maybe that includes a warning to everyone (parents too) that any boys who try to emulate the trick shooter would have to be removed from the range for safety reasons. It is true that little boys do copy behavior. But keeping them from seeing this show isn't going to keep them from acting like "cowboys." They've already seen the behavior. "Everybody knows" that cowboys shoot things, right? And from this show they might actually get more information about the importance of training and safety than they would otherwise have, and in a setting where it might make a lasting impression - if the trick shooters are competent, as JBlake describes.

Local, let me add a couple of real buglers to your list. My son's troop has a tradition of having a good scout bugler. But that's probably only because we have had a couple of accomplished professional trumpet players serve as ASMs over the years and they've been able to share their passion and skill with the scouts. For troops with no one to fill that adult role, I think it would be much tougher to fill the youth role. Now, is it leadership to stand up in front of the group and play? That's debatable I suppose, but as a musician myself (though not a pro) I do know it takes guts.

Beavah, I sent you a PM on this topic - here's hoping it went through.

Quite honestly I don't think the 1st Cl. requirement is a major issue. How many boys can we, here on this board, personally account for who have joined OUR troops, as a result of this requirement? We actually had a couple who came to a meeting or two, but that was it - they never filled out the paperwork and we never saw them again. Whatever national's intent, so far my observation is that this requirement is a bit of a joke and does not translate into big numbers of new boys joining scouting.

Yep, that was exactly my concern OGE, Beavah. Thanks for verifying that I wasn't leaping to unwarranted conclusions. The person on our professional staff seemed to think it would not be a problem. But as a district membership committee member, I want to see solid, lasting units with no public relations disasters. I'll ask him to re-visit this issue.

Some of our professional staff assert that the answer is yes. The argument in favor that I was given was that charter schools are different from traditional public schools, and that they aren't as bound by "political correctness." My initial response was that they're still public schools, albeit of a somewhat different stripe, so the answer ought to be no. Not trying to start a big political flame war here! But I'd appreciate any knowledgeable feedback (please let's avoid merely rhetoric - I don't want to have to move this to the issues & politics forum. This is a real question about a specific potential unit, not a hypothetical.)

In addition to serving in a minor role on the troop committee, I'm on our district membership committee. This is my second stab at membership, as the first time around (briefly, as district membership chair) I found that I was the wrong person for that job. I just didn't have time to attend a million and one district and council and "special" meetings that seemed to go with the job, and I'm not a very good counter of beans. Or heads. I'm with Eamonn that you can spend all day long recruiting or playing numbers games but if you don't have the goods (strong unit programs) at the end of the day it's useless. These days I'm back on the committee (long story) but thankfully not the chair. And almost the entire membership of the committee has changed. While I don't want to say that previously everyone was solely number driven, I think it is at least fair to say that right now, everyone on the committee agrees that units have to have a good program, aided and supported by the district, in order for the membership aspect to make any sense. Of course, half the time our membership conversations end up being conversations about how other district committees need to do x, y, or z to support our plans! For example, our DE - who is not the typical "move on, move up" kind of DE by the way - was pushing the position of pack trainer a while back. He wanted us to encourage packs to have pack trainers, who would then somehow or other be involved with helping packs build their webelos-scout transition program, fall round-up, and spring Tiger recruitment (hence, the membership tie in). Problem is, as a district we don't have, and haven't had for at least 5 years, any support or training for pack trainers! So we (membership) nixed the whole idea of making pack trainers an important part of anything we do, unless/until district training team gets things together here. Another example, we're talking about doing boy scout recruiting in the fall. Now that's a LOT harder than cub recruiting. One idea is to host a Scout-o-Rama, open to the entire community, or some other "big" event to raise attention and hopefully, get attendance. Great, but you know, that's the program committee's territory. We keep coming back to the role of Unit Commissioners, which are scarce commodities in our area. WOnderful, but we need the help of the district commissioner corp there. My point is that there's only so much membership can do without those linkages to other district support teams. And in the meantime, there are an awful lot of troops and packs in our area who want nothing to do with anything district-related, which I can understand on one level - but then if things aren't going well or there is no district committee to provide support/service to the units, guess who they blame?

Thanks Eric, we're actually on our way to Wright-Pat later this spring. Doing something that involved flight (or at least, simulators) would be a neat follow up on the theme for next year, and I believe that's what got the guys thinking along those lines.

Great resources, thanks for the tips. It turns out we have a guy in the troop who is a reservist with an air national guard base so he's going to look into some options there too. Beavah, it's a little scary you knew that about Jackson CC and I didn't!

I talked with our incoming SM tonight about encouraging a couple of our older boys to do NYLT and he pointed out that it is fairly expensive ($210 I think, and this is in addition to summer camp which was more expensive this year since most of our older guys opted for a high adventure trip). So I'm thinking of proposing that the troop pay some of the cost for NYLT (maybe half?), for the boys who are chosen as SPL and ASPL. I'm thinking that it is worth the troop's money since it will help these guys develop as true leaders. In theory we have the money to do it but I'm sure there will be a lively discussion about the idea. What do you think? Good idea or bad idea, and why? What does your troop do?

The people I'd go to first for information are the committee chair/treasurer and whoever the new scoutmaster is. That goes for both the program stuff (what's happening in troop meetings, who is running/doing what, etc.) and the financial aspect. Supposing that you are polite and reasonable in your requests, the committee chair/treasurer should have no trouble explaining where your money goes when you pay dues. While they may not be able to tell you how every cent is allocated, they should be able to give you a general run-down. For example, in March the troop paid about xx for tent repairs and new lanterns; the awards budget for a court of honor is about xx; so far we've paid about xx to Camp Happy for X # of boys to attend the week of xxx, etc.. If they have no idea where the money is going, or won't tell you, then something is amiss. It might be something as simple as poor book keeping, in which case offering to help clear things up (if you have the skill or know someone who does and is willing) might be the best thing you can do. If your CC/treasurer cannot or will not discuss matters with you, I suppose you have the right to go to the charter organization and lay it all on the table. If they're actively involved with the troop, they'll probably already have a good working relationship with the CC and they'll be able to ask the questions and get the answers necessary. If they are generally uninvolved except signing paperwork now and again, then they may have no clue what's going on or how things ought to work. There, one of your options is to offer to help put the CO in contact with your district executive (a professional BSA staffer - your council office can tell you who that is). The District Exec. generally works with COs so he or she should be able to help the CO figure out what their responsibilities are, assuming the CO actually cares. Which they should, because what you're describing sounds like a total mess and could reflect poorly on the CO's reputation in the community as well. I don't know if I understood the summer camp fee issue. What I think you are saying is: camp costs $265 but the troop is requesting donations (from whom?) for $280. Parents don't really know whether they're responsible for the whole $265 or not, depending on what happened with the fundraising $, so they don't know what to pay. The troop is now having a hard time paying the camp for the boys (?) and has requested an extension from the camp (while they sort this mess out?). If that's the gist of things then yes, I think you're within reason to ask the CC/treasurer for clarification. Parents need to know what they're responsible for, when to pay, and that their payments are in fact going to summer camp and not buying someone a yacht or something. If all that you are saying is correct and something like $1200 has truly vanished, then the CC needs to start serious conversation with the CO and the DE. They may ultimately decide to contact the local police too, but I think that's the CO's job since they - not you, not the CC, not the council or district - own the troop and its assets. And perhaps looking for another troop to join isn't such a bad idea, if things don't get resolved here.

Re: resources, we have a county airport. There's a civil air patrol unit in the area (I think - their website hasn't been updated since 2001!) and a young eagles chapter. There is an air national guard base and a flight museum - Kalamazoo Air Zoo - within driving distance, though the Air Zoo would be a bit of a hike for us and the guard base has limited access for security reasons. I know the Air Zoo run a regular scout program including simulators, which the boys are already aware of, but it is an indoor lock-in type thing, rather than a camp out option. Right now there are no aviation MB counselors in our district (but we can change that).

Thanks for all of the feedback - it's a gift, as John keeps reminding people, and I do appreciate it. Barry, yes, this young man has been a pretty good SPL and it has been fun to watch him grow into the job. The people who spoke up at the committee meeting actually surprised me because one is a former SM who is usually the one pushing "boy led" and the other is a longtime ASM and probably a future SM (both are on the committee for now). Upon reflection my best guess is that they spoke up when and where they did because the SM did not. Maybe the comments they made were really more a nudge/push for the SM to do a better job of communicating with his SPL. Heaven knows, while our SM has many good qualities, communication and information flow are not his strengths. (Though I will say, in his defense, he's learning on the job too and while there are times we disagree on things, I've come to think it is a shame our troop has a tradition of people serving as SM for just two years and then stepping down. By the time they really begin to figure it out, they're just about done.) Eric, I see where you are coming from. But no, the parents of these children have not been part of this particular conversation and I don't think the CMs in question have any agenda here (their kids are all much older). The parents of the boys in question are all supportive of scouting and they gladly pitch in where they are able, but they don't generally attend committee meetings. And the SPL does not go to the same school as the boys in question. My son and most of his friends in the troop do though, and what I hear unofficially from them (they tell me, I never ask) as well as what I see when I'm at troop events tends to back up the adults' perceptions of the dynamic between these boys. Anyway, I agree completely that the committee was not the right place to handle this matter, and that having the SPL report to the committee opens him up to leadership challenges that otherwise wouldn't occur. At some point I'll have to have that conversation with our current CC and our incoming SM because my guess is that we do it this way simply because we've always done it this way. Thanks again for your input. One thing I appreciate about this forum is that we can toss around situations and examples and think through "how might I handle this differently." It is something I've learned a good deal from doing.

Welcome, result1. Part of the difficulty with the organizational structure of boy scouts is that the council does not actually own the troop. While it might seem as though going to council to get a troop mishap cleared up would be logical, in reality there is little that the council can do about troop-level issues most of the time. This is why people are suggesting that you talk, instead, to whatever group or organization sponsors your troop (the charter organization partner). They DO own the troop. Often this is a local church or civic organization. If you aren't sure who the charter org. if for your son's troop, you should be able to find out by asking the committee chair. If s/he doesn't know either, ask the council and they can tell you. But, assuming that the CC is not the root of the accounting problems, it would probably be easier/better for him or her to contact the CO than for you to do it. I say this because the CC has (or should have) a "professional" relationship directly with the charter org. while you do not and may be viewed as simply a disgruntled parent. Unfortunate, but potentially true anyway. Also, FYI, not all charter orgs. are actively involved - some are simply names on a paper and nothing more. In that case, don't expect a whole lot of help from them. As for dues: My son's troop collects dues once a year. There are pro's and con's to doing so weekly. (pro: it teaches the boy about regular, on-going commitments and responsibilities, plus it makes the boy more aware of the amount of money scouting costs and breaks the cost down into boy-sized chunks that he could help pay -which helps him learn that "a scout is thrifty!") (con: it is a pain in the neck from a book keeping perspective). About fund raisers: I also don't see a reason why it should take four months to figure this out. Maybe it is time to invite the committee chair over for a cup of coffee and ask him/her to explain to you what is taking so long and more importantly, how it will be fixed? About scout accounts: Some troops use them and others do not. Again, there are reasons for and against them. Whatever your troop's policy on this is, it should be clear and it should be followed. If it isn't clear, ask the committee chair to clarify it for you. If it is clear but isn't being followed, that's another topic of conversation to add to your list for when you invite the CC over for a cup of coffee. From what you've posted, it does sound like the troop could use some assistance on the accounting side of things. Perhaps you know someone who is in that line of work and who would be happy to lend a hand?

My son's troop is doing their planning session for next year pretty soon A couple of the boys are interested in doing something along the lines of an aviation theme and they've asked me to help them find out what the "boundaries" are in terms of what's possible from the BSA's perspective. I know there's a MB. I know that the Young Eagles have done some things together with scouting groups in the past. I have heard that the paperwork/liability aspect is enormous and complicated. Does anyone have any experience helping boy scouts put together an aviation-themed event and if so, would you please share any suggestions or pointers? Thanks!

Yeah thanks, there, Stosh, for your helpful, friendly, courteous, kind feedback. That's going to go a long way toward helping me help the troop, eh?

Semper, thanks, I like that approach, will share it with the "powers that be."