le Voyageur

The answer to that question is no. With rest breaks, a stop for lunch and a bit of sight seeing, 50 miles in 8 hours breaks down to an avearge speed of about 7 to 8 miles an hour. With today's multispeed bikes that is a very do-able pace. The trick is finding a comfortable gear that one can spin in. From personal experience I know that most boys like the high gears as I've seen a few of them crank a 48/12 combo on a 12 percent grade just to stay ahead of the pack. The other problem, and a big one with the Rail to Trail system, is that they are too flat, rolling hills are a better solution. With flat terrain you've got to keep cranking, makes it hard to rest on the bike. With rolling hills one can rest a bit on the down side (one of the worst rides that I've ever done was a 10 hour, 120 miler along the coast of Baja, flat with head winds, pure misery). Other items to consider are matching tyres for the road surface to be ridden; tyre pressure; frame geometry;rims; spoke lacing; gearing; suspension; frame material; seat/handle bar height and position; pedal/foot position; and shift/brake lever postions... For touring I use a hybridize mountain bike with front suspension only. Rims are lite weight anodized aluminum alloy, 38 spokes with 3 cross lacing (Mavics). The frame geometry is a bit tight, but it's a livable tradeoff do to the the extra stiff bottom bracket. This allows me to transfer more energy to the cranks, and less flexing the frame. The pedals are set for ankling, that is the ball of the foot will rest in the center of the pedal, and kept there with the toe strap. Tyres for asphalt, and hardpan are slicks inflated to 95 psi; for loose dirt and mud, the tyres are switched over to knobbies and inflated to about 60 psi max, and 40 psi min. Seat height is set to give a slight bend in the knees, with the brake levers set to keep the wrist as stright as possible. A bent wrist is not only hard on the tendons, but reduces effective braking. Seat height is correct when there is a slight bend in the knee. Set to low, the legs won't deliver max force to the pedals, too high will cause the bike to wobble as one rocks back and fourth to reach the pedals. Not a good thing when running curvy roads....

Scout Parent Yes, I've takened quite a few courses in comparative religions...do you perchance know what a paradox is????

The kid's MBC was his dad, so the buddy system could be ignored.......would I cycle 108, yes, and I have. Would I let scouts? No way! The logging trucks and tourist traffic makes for a dangerous mix, not to mention patches of snow and ice at the higher elevations (Pickle Meadow is over 8,000 ft.)

Rooster, sorry for the short post, had an emergency to attend to...so, let me ask you a few questions... lets say that I was a young Life Scout about a month away from my Eagle board of review, and I said what I mentioned in the post while sitting around the troop's campfire just sharing thoughts.... how would you respond? With anger, or wisdom??? Could you turn this into a teachable moment, and if so, how would you? If not, why not? Would you deny me my Eagle because I expressed a thought that "you" didn't like????

ASM7 Nope, not referring to the Virginia Creeper trail...Pickle Meadow to Sonnora via Highway 108 in California...the kid was reaching speeds over 50+ mph on switchbacks.......

Rooster Thanks for your post...just know that I was seeing that this thread, which "had" a lot of great issues that could of been discussed was headed south. All, I'm doing is putting my C.O.P.E. directors hat on and pushing buttons. I figure if I can get you guys to vent a bit against a common enemy (me) you'll circle the wagons to protect one another. Afterwards we can get back to discussing the merits still outstanding once the vinegar is spent. So all, give it your best shot, and enjoy a bit of bashing...afterwards we'll take a deep breath, and get back to being nice to one another...en roulant *

The worm that flaws the apple of creationalism is simply the fact that the OT creation story was borrowed by the Hebrews from the Assyrians. Generations of storytelling before pen and paper would alter the tale, reformulating the story with a distinctive Hebrew outlook. Additionally, overlooked is the evolution of the Bible itself. With the books of Adam, and Enoch ommited, the genesis story becomes greatly distored, loosing it's richness. However, the real reason that creationlism is being push is to undermind the consitution, and implant a pro conservative Christian agenda without due reguard for the belief systems of other. The foundation of this drive is the Great Commission found in the NT. Needless to say, the Great Commission is both folly and arrogance, and is the theological hammer of narrow minded power mongers.....being able to leave others alone to follow their own path is beyound the comprehension of the majority of Christians. And so these tyrants meddle, burning the world around theirselves, and wondering why everything is going to hell....

It's called fudging...the SM was too lazy (or out of shape)for the hike...reminds me of the scout who cheated on the Cycling merit badge, did the entire 50 coasting down a mountain

...as to scienthic methodology is has been a necessary stage in the human development and a supremely valuable tool. It is only when it is mistaken for the truth, the only way of looking at reality or the basis for moral or spirtual values, that we manage to get ourselves snarled up. It is only one method of inquiry. It is a system to know "about" existence. It cannot "know" existence. If a person adopts any permanent attitude of a seperate and analytical observer then he acts in direct opposition to the prime evolutionary conditions of being human. Collectively we seem in a chronic mood of doubt and repeated questioning. The questions never end. At the other end of the spectrum are the religious beliefs where only "answers" are given. These older popular religions, formulated in ages of childlike dependence, encounter the adolescent separatist abstractions of modern scientific materialism. The old religions of faith with their ready made answers, mostly created thousands of years ago, cannot withstand the scrutiny of our age of doubt. But our culture has somehow lost out on the deal and finds itself alone and bewildered...... Thus, I seem to feel that as a species we appear to be an essential part of an evolutionary process through time, and that consciousness is the true evolutionary enviroment of man..however, to underline a simple fact, we neither know what consciousness actually is, nor do we have any way of observing its nature objectively. We appear to have it, and yet we don't know what it is. But, of the different levels of consciousness, primal consciousness is the ultimate mystery, unbounded and unlimited by any experiential or conceptual phenomena. It existed before and will exist after any sense of "I". It is the ground of reality, the holo-cosmos itself, and the awakened consciousness of man in his natural state.....

On page 4 of this thread I've already broached a warning about creationalism leading to eugenics which was ignored. However, it took you guys only 3 additional pages to start bringing it up....so now I'll digress a bit and add some additional elements to consider. Lets begin with a general overview, and consider this, that if the design of man is examined he is revealed to be a composite of all previous creatures, environments and experiences. His body below the brow is a machine of animals and elemental cycles. He is rather a summation of all that came before him and everything he already knows. But man is also a new stage in the event of time. His newness or uniqueness is hidden in the brain. His lower, or vital brain including his rudimentary speech and thought is part of the summary and reflection of the past. Thus to call a human a being is misleading, he is more a human becoming. Man exists in a twilight zone between a beast and a Buddha (or a Christ)for he is in a constant process, knowing that he "is", but not "who" he is. In a beast, in an animal, essence comes before existence. Essence is the whole blueprint of a being partly programmed by the coding of the genes and possibly by fields which determine the collective form, habits and memory of a particular species. For an animal, essence heralds existence. The essential blueprint precedes the living organism. The complete program of the life form, its habit, lifestyle, tastes, its manner of reproduction and its manner of dying all come with the original package at birth. Our first homind ancestors roaming the savannahs three million years ago, carried their essential blueprint with them. They followed the strict regime of their inbuilt genetic program which cast them as clever but simple beasts. Let us suppose that somewhere along that long homind line a critical threshold appeared and the line split in two. The beast took the terminal path to extinction and the first true man stepped across the biological barrier which was to profoundly alter the evolutionary process. For now man existed first and his whole program followed. The beast had remained a closed being, pre-programmed, dependent upon biological evolution for any change. The new being, however, was suddenly an uncetainty - a becoming. Homo sapiens remains the question mark, a movement towards a quest of who he is. In biological terms this situation is created by the vast areas of the cerebral cortex which remain uncommitted. In most animals virtually the whole brain is taken up by particular sense or survival functions, but in man there are large unused areas which are available for other processes, such as learning and thought. The biblical story of the expulsion of Adam and Eve takes on a new and poignant significance. Both Adam and Eve lose their beast like innocence and yet pay for their new found self reflective consciousness by being perpetually uncertain of who they are and wheteher they will continue to be. As far as is known they become the first animals to recognize and be afraid of death.........

have not heard, but if true, it can't get any worse than the current one...well on second thought, I've been wrong before.......

On another tread folks were asking for sources other than the Guide for Safe Scouting...here's what I use to run a high adventure program 2002 National Standards for Council High Adventure and Specialty Adventure Programs No. 20-120A Camp Health and Safety No. 19-308 Passport to High Adventure No.4310 Health and Safety Guide No 34415B Project COPE No. 34371A Topping Out: A BSA Climbing/Pappelling Manual No. 3207A OSHA Written Plans, No. 19-431 OSHA Laws tha Affect Camps and Conference Centers No. 19-450 NOLS Wilderness Educator Manual Hope that this helps... EMS Protocols, State of Virginia

Liquid fuel stoves are now a requirement in many areas. And with LNT, more so than ever... As to favorites I've owned and used MSR's XKG's and Whisperlites...however my current stove is the Primus...works the same as the XKG. On the plus side it is much more stable, and will burn not only liquid fuel, but also cannistered gas. The downside, it's a bit more heavier than the XKG......

No need to repete good advise...however, with that number of people I would have to break up group into at least 5 messes (patrols) of at least 6 each just to keep things under control...I would also consider a minimum of three cooking fires spread out a bit to minimize traffic...

Redfeather, Just taking a wild guess I feel that there are two possible problems... First, that the steel in your striker may be too hard. Mine was hand forged by a blacksmith to a hardness factor of around 4.5 which gives excellant sparks. As you know, it is the flint that shreds the steel, and friction from the downward blow that ignites the steel shards producing the sparks. If you are using a striker made of a modern chrome alloy steel, it's hardness factor may be near that of the flint, thus producing the weak sparks......the best solution is to have one made by a blacksmith...Or, two, you need to nap the flint to produce a sharper edge that will cut the steel....

For those who dwell on the right coast, and have a Venture crew considering a whitewater rafting trek for next summer; here's a link to an outfitter that does a pretty good job of running folks down the river.... http://www.usaraft.com

Sctmom, I would like to add to your comments concerning medical forms. These forms should be with the unit at all times for every event they attend... Class 1's for scouts, and scouters under the age of 40 Class 3's for scouters over the age of 40; or for all scouts and scouters taking part in high adventure acitvities. But, be careful when reviewing med forms..I've seen them with not only with omitted, or incomplete information, but also those that have been forged and altered....

nldscout BSA National Standards for Council High Adventure and Specialty Programs ar very specific as to age. To quote directly from the Standards, and referring to Standard M3 (M means manditory with no exceptions). "Every participant must be a registered Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, or Venturer and must have attained the age of 13 or have completed the seventh grade by January 1 of the year he or she will participate. Programs requiring greater physical strain, mental stress or higher levels of skills are limited to older Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts, and Venturers. Experience levels and preadventure training are considered in determining age standards higher than the minimum." This information should be available at your council, and is part of the unit leader's training for Climb on Safety, as well as Trek Leader....

So far I've not seen any post by those who belong to patrols outside of the current pantheon (SP???) I do know a few Wolves, not to mention a Raven, a Woodpecker, and........a Kangaroo. Maybe the bears got em, hey...

As an adjucnt to the Guide are National's standards for High Adventure activities which white water rafting falls under. Scouts must be 13 as of 1 Jan of the year the activity takes place...my advice to unit leaders and parents of cubbies, as well as the 12 and under scouts is to stop pushing them into activities that they are not ready for....

Smush (18th century Gator Aide) Berries - 1 or 2 quarts (Blackberries, Raspberries, etc.) Vinegar - Red Wine, or Balsamic Crock or glass container Rinse the berries letting them drain a bit before putting them in the crock. Cover the berries just barely to the top with the vinegar smashing just a bit with a wooden spoon. Let set in the frig for 24 to 48 hours...then Puree in a blender and simmer slowly adding sugar to taste (about 4 cups). Let cool and strain through cheese cloth. Store in a glass bottle...to use, mix one to one with cold, or ice water

As an alternative to charcloth for flint and steel, use a fire tube...a short length of cotton rope threaded through a piece of copper or brass tubing about 3 inches in lenght. Char the end, and use the same as charcloth. To extingush the end just pull the rope into the tube........

For wide stream crossings where there's a bit of a risk for getting the pack and gear drenched consider using a coricle...mine, instead of being circular have the shape of a short bread loaf...to make, use a level area and cut stakes to form an inner and outer ring about 8 to 12 inches deep. Fill with branches, weaving and crossing whenever possible to height of about 18 to 20 inches. Wrap with cord to secure, and remove the stakes. Lay a few spars across by pushing them through the fill for decking. Flip over onto a tarp, or the rain fly of a tent securing with cord. Done right you'll have a nice little boat to float your gear, or sometimes yourself across a span of water....

For Flint and Steel kits see... http://www.trackofthewolf.com Remember, with flint and steel the char cloth must be placed on top of the flint. Sparks fly up and across the flint, not downward and out. Hold the charcloth with your thumb, this way you've got something to aim at with the striker. Also, the thumb will deflect the sparks backwards and onto the cloth....

Red Feather, My basic cookset for solo backpacking consist of the following items Boiler http://www.sonomaoutfitters.com/acc_kitch/gsi_haboiler.html cup (plastic), lexan spoon, a ziploc bowl with lid (the lid doubles as a small plate/platter)