le Voyageur

This is being posted for ScoutmasterRon, however, if you've got a trek you'd like to share please feel free to post here.. This bike ride is fairly tuff due to terrain (mountains,high altitudes, and remoteness in certain areas)...to keep this post from being too expansive it's detailed as a "connect the dots" ride. A current DeLorme's Northern California can be use to fill in the route .... Segment One - Modesto to Coulterville Start - The Fruityard, east of Empire on Yosemite Blvd. UTM 10 689981E 4167687N (see http://www.topozone.com - on the menu bar select UTM coords at Get a Map and key in the above UTM) con.'t east on Yosemite Blvd. (Hwy 132)through Waterford, La Grange and on to Coulterville (jct. 132 and 49) Segment 2 - Coulterville to Yosemite National Park to Lee Vining (Jct 120/395) UTM 11 313676E 4203015N Coulterville - UTM 10 747171E 4177222N Northeast through town to... Greeley Hill UTM 10 752978E 4181103N, con't north to.. Highway 120 at Smith Station UTM 10 753750E 4188845N, right turn (east) on 120 to Yosemite National Park (note - entrance to the park will be noted by a kiosk. From here to the next kiosk on the other side of the park will require at a minimum of 3 days of ride time to cross (40 miles per day). A great campsite is at Lake Tenaya...after exiting the park you'll descind to Lee Vining via the Tioga pass, as a caution and a warning, know that I've reached speeds on this descent as high as 67mph! Segment 3 - Lee Vining to Sonora Jct (108) North on 395 to 270 (UTM 11 307949E 4227291N....) East on 270 to Bodie UTM 11 323927E 4231064N (see - http://www.danheller.com/bodie.html )...north to... Bridgeport UTM 11 305713E 4236455N (the ride north from Bodie to Bridgeport is suitable only for mountain bikes) con't 395 north to... Sonora Junction (108) UTM 11 285840E 4247123N Segment 4 - Sonora Junction to Beardsly (note, past Pickle Meadow this section drops like a brick through hairpins and blind curves) From Sonora cycle to 52 (UTM 11 237621E 4234342N) and descend to Beardsley Lake (same warning as for 108...)

Spent the weekend at our OA fall fellowship where BDU's seem to be the norm now. Nothing like seeing someone awarded Vigil not only in an incomplete uniform, but an inappropriate one too... But to be fair, I wasn't in the traditional uniform either, however, what I was wearing was the "uniform" for our Venture crew; which brings me to my next question...what's to keep a Venture crew from selecting BDU's as their "uniform"???

SR I've sent you a private message providing you with a contact person that might be able to help you. I'll be posting my ride shortly........

I would break up a camping trek into equal segments that would total for the entire period. Those that leave early would only get those hours they camped, and no more. This will impact both advancement and any future consideration for OA membership, and force both parents and scouts to consider what really is important to them, and reward those who stay the course......

Maybe the problem is too much gear....why not scale back and use less, making every piece of gear do double or triple duty......

Since I'm not a big fan of the current uniform because of all of its shortcomings, I've "adjusted" mine to be more suitable for high adventure. The trousers have been cut down and modified as knee breeches (no more wet cuffs when stepping out of the canoe). The seat and knees are re enforced. The addition of a gusset at the back means no belt to fool with. The shirt stays as is, with only the necessary patches..however, I'm looking at making changes to the shirt to make it more useable. I would love to get rid of the majority of buttons, maybe convert it to a pullover shirt...however, I've been tempted to make a uniform more in line with the style of the 18th century long hunter. With winter coming up, maybe I'll give it a go for a project....the worse that could happen would be a new fashion trend, sorta like the beret during the 70's.........

105 bucks won't make it....you're not seeing the whole picture. The most visable cost apparent occurs at the parent/unit level. However, to find total cost you'll need to factor in the Chartering Organization, District, Council, Region, and National. You'll also have to factor in the value of time for volunteers, both direct and indirect; as well as a percentage of salaries for professionals at every level. The expense of Scouting does not happen at the unit level alone, the unit is supported by a vast network that requires money to stay in business...to produce an Eagle for 105 is to seperate him from this support system requiring you to bear the full burden yourself...

Oh!....my guess, about $115,000 over 5 years, or (about 20,000 bucks a year. Consider this, it cost the U.S. taxpayers about 50,000 bucks a year for the care of one prison immate. 20 thousand per year is not a bad investment for our future.....

The reason I started this thread...a bunch of us sitting around the campfire....you know the scene. Well, that question came up, and it tended to take over the other deeper, and phlisophicals questions that we ponder around our fire....just wanted to share it you folks around a cyber campfire....

Scoutmaster Ron Got a route in mind?? What summer month?? Total miles per day. Maybe I can offer you some alternative roads to think about (whenever I get the chance, I ride my Trek from Modesto to Yosemite, Yosemite to Bodie, Bodie to 52 via 108, across the wilderness to Arnold via Big Trees State Park, Arnold to California Caverns to Angel Camp. Angel Camp to Oakdale via 4 and back into Modesto....about 15 days in all

Well, let's see, I have the following Lowes Alpine Countour III (internal, bought in 1984) Granite Gear Arete (internal) Jansport D5 (external) Lowes Alpine Cloud (internal) And, I'll soon be acquiring a Lynn Welden Pound Plus pack, about 24oz If I'm peak bagging, I like the Jansport as I can strap more esoteric gear to it (pickets, deadmans, crampons, etc, You can also rig cheap skis, from Goodwill on the frame and turn it into a load bearing sled. Use skipoles, or hiking staffs to hitch into and haul away). For moving fast and lite, the small size of the Arete forces me to use less.. For deserts, where I've got to hump a lot of water than the Contour for better weight control... Both the Arete and Cloud are used as assult packs when pushing for a summit...The Arete tends to be the better has it has two ice axe loops, as well as a pocket for the snow shovel....

Well, it's good to know that I'm not alone in the complaint department....for myself, I keep waiting for National to come out with a "blank" square knot in which one can pin one's Eagle Palms to, instead of the current sloppy method....as well as square knots that reconizes service at summer camp (not everyone goes to NCS and gets to wear the neat little patch).......

My own direct experience with inner city urban units was a nightmare, four weeks of pure hell working as a Program Director at a summer camp. This Council had tapped into HUD money to create inner city troops; then bused them to camp in droves. None of those kids should of ever been put in a wilderness enviroment until they had not only more camping experience, but even more experience of behaving and acting like scouts. I'll never work at that camp again...the best that I can offer is to wish you luck.

Money is always an issue....parents, as well as units have budgets. Unit Leaders (volunteers) often have limited resources in both time, and money. Can one not put a dollar value on the time that Unit Leaders sacrafice away from labors that could generate more money for them, and their families? Are Eagle Mills more for the ego, or do they serve as a means to cut cost for cash strapped units (or units with poor budget controls)?

here's a question I've been pondering..... What is the gross cost in dollars over time to produce one Eagle Scout???

I would have to agree with Yaworski on the rules being parent driven to a degree. Most however seem to be firewalls created to counter litagations on negligence by volunteer members. Sexual misconduct by unit leaders, as well as false acqusations by scouts led to the two deep leadership rules. Water related fatalities and accidents at the unit level was the impetus for Safety Afloat, and Safe Swim Defense. Again at the unit level, a rash of climbing accidents led to Climb on Safety, and now we're seeing more reforms via Trek Leader training. For myself working high adventure at summer camp, I like to play it safe and go by the rules...urbanized parents and unit leaders have very little understanding of the risk factors involved in backcountry activites, but are very knowledgeable about lawsuits....

These postings on this topic have overall been pretty good...OGE, one great big thanks to you for not breaking out in the "Barney Song".....that would of been way overboard for this forum!

ASM7 No, those are my buds in crime....we do get a little wild looking, but we do clean up nice..LOL [on a side note, we're starting a reenacting Venture crew in which this style of dress will be the field uniform...everything homemade if possible]

ASM7, I stand corrected, it's the June issue of Boys Life, not May... OGE, lots of great questions of which at this point I;m just not sure...here's a link to see the type of shirt I'm talking about... http://www.ghostforge.com/pics/trade_print.jpg some simpler items I'm considering are gourd canteens, or possible bags, or haversacks, or ???

ASM7, I stand corrected, it's the June issue of Boys Life, not May... OGE, lots of great questions of which at this point I;m just not sure...here's a link to see the type of shirt I'm talking about... http://www.ghostforge.com/pics/trade_print.jpg some simpler items I'm considering are gourd canteens, or possible bags, or haversacks, or ???

Our Trek sells, as a program option, shirts that are replicas of the late fur trade era ( to see what these shirts look like, see the May issue of Boy's Life which features our trek). My problem is that I think that they are a little pricy. One of my solutions to cut price is to have the partiscipants make thier own shirt. I figure that if they buy their own fabric, thread, needle, and three buttons, they can make a mid 18th century long shirt for about 5 to 8 bucks. For myself, I can handsew these shirts in about five hours....here's the questions - do you think scouts/scouters would be interested in learning how to handsew. - do you think scouts/ scouters would be willing to put in the time for such a project after a long day of canoeing to work on such a project (at least an hour every evening) - do you think that this is just to much of a craft project to be attempted during a week long summer camp program.... thoughts, comments........

manners, and respect. Including self respect......

On the river, I carry one main knife, a blunt tip sheath knife strapped to the PFD, and 4 spares...just in case. For reenacting either the French and Indian War, or the Rev. War, I carry a small neck knife to cut patches for the musket, or whatever chore needs to be attended to. My sash knife with it's 15 inch blade serves as a personal sidearm; plus a small English scapler tucked into a leg tie backs up the main gauche; that, and a hawk completes the persona. I'm now considering adding either a plug bayonet or a dirk to the outfit... However, when I'm demonstrating, or teaching 18th century close quarter combat using edged weapons, I prefer my trusty rubber knife.....

We're gearing up the team just in case we need to head south to do a bit of rescue work....you folks, and scouters in the area where Lilly will be making landfall, please be careful to where ever it is that you've gotta go for safety. May you, and your family all return home safe and sound.......

Scout Parent was right about the methods of C.O.P.E. However, he missed one very important element. That is getting an individual, or a group to start thinking outside of the box to see, and to consider a different way, or a different ideal. There are times as a C.O.P.E. director that I have to say something off the wall, or twist an ideal in it's opposite direction to get a person to do a bit of rethinking. In Zen, this awakening within the individual is called a satorie and is one heck of a magic moment. However, C.O.P.E. is also challenge by choice; if you don't wanna play, you're free to go. Rooster, you said that my post was hateful and ignorant. Sorry for setting you up (believe me, I am), but those comments made in my post were "borrowed" from scouts. My question..."How would you feel if you were a sixteen year old scout openly expressing yourself for the first time on an issue that was very important to you, only to be dressed downed by a Scoutmaster in front of your peers?" You see, you did to me on this forum, but since I baited the trap I've no problem with the rebuke. I knew that someone would bite. Why the trap, well when Scout Parent started banging away with arguments based on eugenics, I know that it will only be a matter of time before we're headed down that ugly dark alley of racism. This thread would soon end, and some very important issues will be short changed. Instead of sharing our insights, we'll soon start flinging insults. So lets talk about the real issue which isn't about creationalism, or evolution, that issue being simply what will happen when we take off constitutional safeguards, and either do away with, or weaken the concept of separation of church and state. Lets have a focused intelligent discussions where we put away our egos to take part in a discourse that will allow us to make informed decisions when it comes time to elect our next set of leaders. You never know, those leaders could be those young men sitting around your campfire...it's your choice, wanna play?