Kudu

Baden-Powell designed the Scout Uniform so that all badges remain, except for Second Class, which is replaced by First Class. They are called "Proficiency Badges," meaning that they indicate current proficiency through constant retesting (think BSA Lifeguard), the opposite of our one and done "rank" badges. See:

http://inquiry.net/uniforms/traditional/placement.htm

Spiney Norman writes:

"We appoint our patrol leaders."

So do ALL of the Scout Troops in ALL of the countries that use Baden-Powell's Patrol System.

The difference is that in the Patrol System, the Scoutmaster meets with the Patrol first to discuss the possibilities, and/or consults the PLC before making the official appointment. See Rule 240:

http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/groups.htm

The question should be: "To what end?"

In most "modern" BSA Troops, "Boy Led" means the adults give the Scouts a free hand in six month popularity contests to "learn about democracy," but keep a tight "controlled failure" leash on campouts so that a Troop of teenagers camp close together like Cub Scouts in campsites the size of an end zone.

Baden-Powell camps Patrols a football field apart.

In Baden-Powell's Scouting, "Boy Led" means Patrol Leaders hike their Patrols about eight miles once a month without adult supervision, and camp about 300 feet from the nearest Patrol.

Spiney Norman writes:

"This happens after they have been through our Troop's TLT course and they have served as an assistant patrol leader or den chief. Their tenure usually runs any where from 9 mos to a year or even two years sometimes."

Two year tenures are impressive in "21st century Scouting," where the standard is more like the six month POR ghost town PLC that "horanmm" describes.

Before you give into adult peer pressure, why not act on the courage of your convictions, and put all that Patrol Leader talent and tenure to use?

Space your best Patrols Baden-Powell's minimum standard of 300 feet apart, and try some ad hoc backpacking Patrol adventures, where your most mature Patrol Leaders & Scouts hike all day without adults, and meet up with the rest of the Troop in the evening.

Let us know how long your "Troop Malaise" lasts if you encourage your best Patrol Leaders to use Baden-Powell's Patrol System.

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net/patrol/index.htm

Our Scouts never get tired of "Pizza Hot Dish." The Troop tradition is a baked evening meal for First Class cooking. For practice, they first cook the three meals at home (in a regular oven) for their family, and count it for Cooking Merit Badge.

Pizza Hot Dish

2 pkg Crescent rolls

8 oz Shredded Cheddar Cheese

1 jar Pizza Sauce

8 oz Shredded Mozzarella Cheese

1-1/2 lb Ground Beef

Brown ground beef, drain. Line dutch oven with 1 pkg of crescent rolls. Spread pizza sauce on dough. Add browned beef, the cheeses and use second pkg of rolls to form a top crust. Bake 30 min. at 350. Serves about six.

The recipe is from Dutch Oven Cookbook, free at MacScouter:

http://www.macscouter.com/cooking/

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net

Baden-Powell's test for a First Class Scout was a solo 15 mile backpacking trip, the world standard for a competent camper long before the invention of lightweight equipment

The "How To" guide for adult leaders:

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/hikes/1st_class_hike.htm

The distance increased with each stage of training:

http://inquiry.net/advancement/traditional/journey_requirements.htm

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net

"Many of the discussions on this thread attempt to find happy ground . . . we're going backpacking, but we can only cover 10 miles a day because we're going to need to stop and cook 3 times a day..."

For a Troop's first experiment, I'd go for that happy ground: No more than one (1) mile in each direction, and at least one (1) cooked meal per day.

A couple of years ago, I introduced "backwoods fishing trips" to our town's only local Troop: Just a half-mile, but at once they saw the potential of replacing a Troop Trailer with backpacks, as if viewing the world for the first time through night vision goggles.

I overheard one of the Patrol Leaders say "We could do this ourselves."

At Sunday's Thorns & Roses, one of the natural leaders announced that he was going to go to Philmont some day, and another said he was going to start overnights with his little brother on the Appalachian Trail near his family's cabin. Both them them started saving money to buy their own equipment.

The Scout who went to Philmont is 18 now, so he and another age-peer can take their self-selected ad hoc Patrol out without linking back up with the rest of the backpacking Patrols at night.

We tried a no-cooking trek once, but almost everyone picked as a "thorn," the strangely depressing lack of a cooked meal at the end of the day.

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net

JMHawkins

"1 stove per 4 Scouts sounds about right. I think Kudu calls this a 'Cook Group'."

Yes, two (2) "Cook Groups" per Patrol.

Here is Bob Geier's easy, illustrated guide for beginners:

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/cooking/lightweight.htm

As you slowly invest in good equipment, move the more mature Patrols into using the same gear for all campouts. They can backpack Baden-Powell's minimum 300 feet every month :-)

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net

In a nutshell, "Traditional Scouting" is Baden-Powell's Patrol System: 300 feet between Patrols, and (in common with Green Bar Bill's definition of a "Real" Patrol) unsupervised Patrol Hikes at least once a month.

If lrsap agrees that the long-term solution to his current problem is Patrol Leaders with the maturity to move Patrols through the backwoods, then he knows he can scan through my last 1,968 posts for "documentation," or visit my Traditional Scouting Website.

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net

Since you asked...

The photographs are very good, and I like your use of Green Bar Bill's capitalization of key program elements (Troop, Patrol, Patrol Method, Patrol Leader, etc.).

Where I part company is your use of Baden-Powell's term "Patrol System" as interchangeable with the BSA's "Patrol Method." In essence you do to the Patrol System what books like Working the Patrol Method and some American "Patrol Method" Websites do:

Cloak group development theory in the patina of the historical "Real" Patrol Method!

As for your "five areas of the Patrol Method that are especially important when it comes to teaching new Scouts:"

1) A Proper Foundation: Baden-Powell's minimum requirement for the Patrol System is Patrols camped 50-100 yards apart, and (in common with Green Bar Bill's "Real" Patrols) regular Patrol Hikes without "adult association." Instead of that significant real-world adventure, you present a new Scout's first experience of the Patrol System as abstract "lessons" to "understand." This is pure cloaking like Scoutmaster Specific Training's "Patrol Method" presentation where the Patrol Leader and any description of a working Patrol were replaced with a lecture on EDGE theory!

2) The Patrol Leaders Council: The difference between the Patrol Method's PLC and Baden-Powell's "Court of Honour" is that in the Patrol System the Patrol Leaders actually run the Troop. In other words a Court of Honour is a Patrol Leaders' Council without adult-run Scoutmaster Conferences, Boards of Review, Troop Committees, and the ultimate adult control wild-card, "Scout Spirit" Requirements. For instance, check out John Thurman's description of a "Court of Honour in Session." The adult leaders do not decide which Scouts are worthy of advancement. Just the opposite, they are told by the Patrol Leaders which Tenderfoot Scouts are now Second Class:

http://inquiry.net/patrol/court_honor/coh_session.htm

3) The Patrol Meeting: The primary purpose of a Patrol Meeting is to work on indoor requirements and plan the next Patrol Hike (as opposed to leadership development's "Troop Method," where advancement is handled by the "Troop" Guide at Troop Meetings and Troop Campouts). According to Green Bar Bill, the minimum requirement to be a "Real" Patrol is regular Patrol Hikes. New Scouts are usually wild about such adventures. Leadership theory? Not so much

4) P.L. Elections: Simply put, there are no elections in the Patrol System. The Scoutmaster meets with the Patrol to hear their thoughts on the matter, but he and the Court of Honour select the Patrol Leader based on his ability to hike his Patrol into the backwoods without adult supervision. 21st century "leadership" enthusiasts usually treat this as a moral issue, meaning that unsupervised Patrol Outings are replaced with adult-supervised "controlled failure" where the worst that can happen is some burned pancakes. However, in mature backwoods Troop cultures, Patrols can be trusted to elect the most mature leaders. In his third edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters, Green Bar Bill suggests strategies for heading off Patrol election disasters.

5) Individual Responsibility: The idea that "each Patrol is looked at in the light of being an independent and self-sustaining unit" is just abstract group development theory without what Baden-Powell meant by "Real Responsibility:" the ability to navigate a Patrol through Physical Distance without adult supervision!

Are you still 17 years old? I suggest that if you want to "rediscover" Traditional Scouting, you should find a Troop in which you can start camping your Patrol at Baden-Powell's minimum 150-300 feet away from other Patrols, and lead regular Patrol Hikes without adult supervision, NOW, so you actually experience as a Scout the "Real" Patrol Method to which all of those historical quotations refer.

When you turn 18, you and another kid your age qualify as "two-deep leadership" on Patrol Overnights, the ultimate Patrol Method. See Green Bar Bill's "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol":

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net

"Kudu, I agree a 16 y.o. PL would be great, but you work with what you've got."

So your oldest Scouts are 13? At one time you had a 16 year-old trainer.

Still, the goal of Traditional Scouting is to have the Troop's most mature Scouts serve as Patrol Leaders for as long as they are the best natural leaders. In this version of the Patrol Method, the Patrol Leader's primary role is to hike and camp his Patrol away from the other Patrols. That you can do with thirteen-year-olds, scaling the actual physical distance to each Patrol's maturity.

One trick you can start now is: Never end a Scoutmaster Conference (including this one) without finding an on-going role for the Scout that matches his unique talents. Simply stand up and march him over to your PLC (or SPL if you have one) and work something out before you sign off the SMC.

That way a Patrol elects a new Patrol Leader only when it needs to, rather than submitting to regular Troop-wide popularity contests based on Leadership Development's quid pro quo POR advancement requirements.

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net

"And anyone seen Kudu lately?"

I've switched from analytical writing for adults ("telling"), to allegorical Patrol Adventure stories for boys ("showing"). I'm happy to comment when invited, but I don't check in here every week.

As for short term "practical" advice: rdclements, fred8033, and Twocubdad nailed it.

But the big picture here is that both Baden-Powell's "Patrol System" and Green Bar Bill's "Real" Patrol Method are designed to work with your Troop's most mature Scouts as the Patrol Leaders.

Would you need to engage "adult-association" Scout Spirit requirements, a SM Conference, and BOR to cure "disrespect" if this typical 13 year-old was in a Patrol led by a seasoned 16 year-old Patrol Leader who has staffed summer camp waterfronts for a couple of years?

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://inquiry.net/patrol/index.htm

(This message has been edited by Kudu)

Basementdweller writes:

"Read any of the AT trail books written for entertainment, Skywalkers, 300 zeros...many of them have negative references to Boy scouting. Most are because of the ignorance of the adult leaders"

Speaking of: Here are some pics I snapped this spring of trained adult leaders teaching Boy Scouts to hack up mangroves in the Florida Keys:

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/leave_no_trace.htm

Many people would be surprised to learn that Baden-Powell invented a training course to teach indoor volunteers how to think like an outdoorsman. It was a week-long immersion experience with an emphatic outdoor name: "Wood Badge."

If only we had that now in the 21st century.

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net

No, it's the other religion:

"It's a great way to prepare for the real world," Platt said of his Scouting experience. "I feel it's preparing me for being a CEO...."

GKlose writes:

"We still have a ways to go...I'd specifically like to institute a couple of Kudu's ideas: one is to get away from car camping (completely, I hope, someday) and do that by offering a "backcountry" trip that is maybe a half mile away from parking. The other is to get our patrols separated physically (300ft!). That worked when I was a Scout, and there's no reason why it shouldn't work now. But we haven't been digging really deep to find outing spots to support that concept yet."

No need to dig deep for 300 foot Patrol venues if you combine your two modest goals: Ask (in person) the camp ranger at any Boy Scout camp if he has "primitive camping" spots ("about a half-mile" from the parking lot) to which your Troop can "backpack."

Likewise you can camp anywhere in a National Forest, so long as you backpack at least 300 feet from the nearest road, parking lot, trailhead, or improved (pay) campsite.

Baden-Powell's "300 Foot" Patrol System:

http://inquiry.net/patrol/philipps/index.htm

Lightweight Patrol Camping:

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/cooking/lightweight.htm

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net

Twocubdad writes:

"Under "Patrol Method" you can discuss ... every patrol camping 300 feet apart."

One big advantage of camping the Patrols Baden-Powell's minimum 300 feet apart is that this physical distance will eventually move "Voting vs Appointing" from a moral debate to one of obvious practicality:

"Who is the best leader?" rather than "Who needs the POR?."

That being said, I would implement B-P's "Real" Patrol System in the field, along the lines suggested by SeattlePioneer, rather than writing it up as a new "policy" to attract debate.

Adjust the distance of each Patrol from the central adult area according to that Patrol's maturity.

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net

Beavah writes:

Kudu I think has somethin' on his site about lightweight campin' for patrols which does a comparison between what you do and what a lightweight group looks like.

Comparison Chart of Heavyweight Troop Method vs. Lightweight Patrol Method:

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/equipment/lightweight_camping.htm

Detailed Equipment List for "Chucking the Chuck Boxes:"

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/cooking/lightweight.htm

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net

Here is one with a "Citizenship in the Nation" theme:

Early in the last century, six (6) outdoor organizations aspire to forming national Boy Scout organizations in the American free market. One of these corporations gets Congress to grant it an absolute monopoly on Scouting.

The condition of this lucrative monopoly is that the corporation must maintain as its mission the training of boys in outdoor camping skills called "Scoutcraft," as the word "Scoutcraft" was defined on June 15, 1916.

In 1972, a group of corporate management experts removes all camping requirements for Eagle Scout, replacing them with office management theory called "Leadership Development." One million (1,000,000) Boy Scouts leave the BSA.

Corporate leadership experts explain that by definition, playing word games with the letter of the law is a Trustworthy, Loyal, and Obedient "Ethical Choice," unless proven otherwise in court.

The corporation changes its "mission" from outdoor camping skills to "Making Ethical Choices." Your Scoutmaster comes to you with an "Ethical Dilemma" exercise, but you decide you would rather take the "First Class Journey" that you read about in these supplemental materials:

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/hikes/1st_class_hike.htm

http://inquiry.net/advancement/tf-1st_require_1911.htm

and

http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm

Your Scoutmaster explains that the corporation has used its monopoly on Scouting to make the First Class Journey (the world-wide test of First Class outdoor camping skills) against its rules.

1. Using Leadership Development's theme of "Leadership & Character" as a model, make up an "Ethical Choices Word Game" to prove that the First Class Journey is not really against the rules as described in the Guide to Safe Scouting.

I hope that helps!

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net

(This message has been edited by Kudu)

To qualify for some "Honor Troop" award at Camp Thunder, we had to listen to a Venturing sales pitch. The guy arrived ten minutes late and talked about all the fun things our Scouts could do after they turned 14.

It did not make much of an impression. Except for the promise of pistol shooting and sky diving, our Boy Scouts already do all the traditional Boy Scout stuff he offered.

However, when two of our older Scouts returned after hearing the Venturing pitches all summer long (while staffing the waterfront at Camp Woodruff), they made a presentation to the Troop telling them about how cool it would be to start a Venturing Crew.

Given our available adults with outdoor skills, our High Adventure will likely follow the older Scouts out of the Troop.

So far the Committee is excited about this boy-led initiative. The working wisdom is that "It will give the younger Scouts something to look forward to."

The Fun Begins at 14!

My question is: Was there a coordinated national push to pitch Venturing to Boy Scout Troops at BSA summer camps this year?

Or was this just an isolated coincidence?

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net

I always registered about 15 non-Cubs a year using the following recruiting presentation, but it requires access to a public school during school hours:

http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm

Sorry, BSA24, but you lack modern leadership skills.

Obesity is our nation's fastest growing demographic. We run the risk of becoming irrelevant if we don't adapt to things that attract kids today.

You can teach a kid about character and leadership using aerospace and computers. The secret is to get them to sit side by side with morbidly obese models of character.

We've had CEOs on our board say they want to send their people to Wood Badge, our adult leader training program, because we use these state-of-the-art techniques.

http://inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm

That's what the epaulettes are for: So you can wear a chip on your shoulder.

"It ... ultimately distracts from the purposes that they are out camping in the first place."

The topic for this thread is "iPods and the 'Real' Patrol Method."

The "Real" Patrol Method refers to William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's Patrol Method (as opposed to Leadership Development's Patrol Method).

Hillcourt defined a "Real" Patrol as a gang of approximately eight friends that finds adventure in hiking on a regular basis, separately from the rest of a Boy Scout Troop and its "Adult Association."

So by definition the "purpose" of a Patrol Hike is to cover physical distance for the sake of adventure: iPods enhance that adventure for some Patrols.

As a practical matter, I don't see how "Adult Association" (or a "Troop PLC" that buys into adult "safety" excuses) can enforce an anti-technology policy against Real Patrols without using the Troop Method.

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net

If only outdoorsmen were as good as office workers at getting fake Baden-Powell quotes to stick.

On the Internet, nobody can tell that you actually are a curly horned African antelope!

I'll be at Camp Thunder next week if anyone wants to see if kudus bite ...

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net

"parents never really see the good stuff because it happens out in the woods."

Do Not Underestimate the Power of Facebook and other social media to enable parents to share their pride in their son hanging off a 60 foot climbing tower, or hanging out 60 feet below a SCUBA dive boat.

"Hey! Anyone want to do scuba?"

The public page below is only one campout old (Climbing Merit Badge, rather than Scuba), but please consider clicking "Like" (at the top, under the Boy Scout swimming toward the dive boat) to benefit the Troop if you see the potential in their example for your own unit:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Boy-Scout-Troop-452/184243044947246

Note the emphasis on individual photos and videos, which encourage both parents and Scouts to post them on their Facebook walls.

With the constant stream of High Adventure images, "Friends" of parent's Friends in local Webelos Dens started visiting, then crossing over.

Likewise the Scouts use these portraits and YouTube videos on their own Facebook profiles and walls, which leads to Facebook Friends tagging along to rappel, SCUBA, backpack, canoe, etc., along with buddies picked up through First Class requirement 10 "Tell someone who is eligible to join...about your Troops' activities. Invite him to a troop outing..."

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net

Troop61,

The lawyers on the list can give you a better answer, but I think the problem is mixing a sponsor with trademarked BSA words and logos.

However, the BSA does not own the words, "Troop 61."

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net