Kahuna

This is one of those moments. If you want to stay even close to the book, I don't think there's any way you can get a fund-raising clearance from council to do it. On the other hand, if it's "friends of the troop" and everybody is on board with it, and there is absolutely NO identification with the BSA in it, you can get away with it if you can get away with it. IOW, if there is an insurance problem, a G2SS or YP problem that comes up you're on your own. A lot of troops would do it, a lot wouldn't.

I think it never came up because they took it for granted that God, if not religion, would be everywhere no matter what they did. I would argue that the best evidence of the framers intent is the language: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." That of course was later extended to the States as well. If they had meant to erect a wall, they could have done so by using different language. To me, it isn't a big deal one way or the other, because kids get their religion, or the lack of it, primarily from their families and saying "under God" or reading "In God We Trust" isn't going to have much effect on them. On the other hand, I believe there are very few atheist kids. Those who profess it are likewise professing what their parents believe.

Eamonn asks: I'm still trying to work out why the National Web Site provides a link to the Sea Scout web site and points out that it's not an official web site?? It's because the Sea Scout site is a "quasi-official" site (my term), run by volunteers. Since the volunteers in question are in essence the National Sea Scout Committee, I guess they consider it reliable enough to be linked but not reliable enough to be official. Your information about scheduling boats is still current as far as I know. If you're lucky your council will know how to do this. If not, you have to do some telephoning.

Fling1, an interesting analysis, and one I mainly agree with, as far as the issues are concerned (although I'm sure you meant to say "The War of Northern Agression") Sadly, my theory is that the pledge and the phrase on the money will ultimately disappear into the miasma of political correctness. Just as the BSA will decide to change its policies when the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, the politicians will ultimately cave to what causes the least trouble. That, of course, will lead to further demands to change other things and on and on.

You've gotten some good input. I always like the kind of questions that give you an insight as to what kind of kid he is and whether he has really gotten the program - not whether he can cook or pitch a tent, but whether he has good character and has learned how to be a citizen and a leader. One of my favorite questions, learned about 35 years ago from a very wise old Eagle BOR chairman, is not to the boy, but the parents. He would always ask the parents, without the scout present, "We have his undivided attention at this moment. Is there anything you would like us say to him right now that would help him?" Not only did this help the family, it also helped the BOR members in their evaluation. The parents always had some input at that point.

I just saw the pics of N.O. flooding again. Bummer! The Hurricane Center (or NOAA) guy was just saying it looks as if the sea wall at Galveston will hold, but it's still going to be a major disaster. Again, good luck to all affected.

Sounds like a good outcome. Great work!

Best of luck to you and all in the path this storm. It seems to have diminished in strength a bit, let's hope it continues to do so.

BW: You are just arguing the points (and with the people) you wish to argue (with) and ignoring all the others. This is an absolutely pointless discussion.

BW, if the volunteers don't "own" the BSA, then who in the heck does? Yes, I'm a lawyer so I know the BSA is a corporation and governed by etc, etc, etc, but the BSA was established by volunteers. Most of the early professionals were recruited from the ranks of volunteers. In the early days, the heads of councils who couldn't afford to hire an SE were volunteer commissioners. It's not the professionals who make this thing work, it's: yep, volunteers. While I agree with you that the best units are those who follow the program, even you must admit it's pretty hard to keep up with the latest change to G2SS and YP procedures. It sort of reminds me of how when I was a practicing attorney, you had to read the case summaries that came down in order to keep up the changing laws. To say you are not judging when you say the things you say about how we should love it or leave it is to say that you understand this thing and nobody else does. The professionals I know would shudder to hear a volunteer express that viewpoint at a roundtable or training experience. I have 50 years experience as a Scouter and 30 years as a military officer, twenty something as a lawyer and I have to say that, without thoughtful dissidents those organizations would not be as good as they are today. Because people are willing to stand up for what they believe - as a part of the organization, not as outsiders - they have been able to make changes for the better. Sometimes not for the better, but it's how things change. As I mentioned above, it's how we force our government to change things we don't like. And to say that you aren't judging when you say that people who will dissent in private and not in public are some kind of traitors to the organization when they fear they may be expelled if they do so is unfathomable.

I must admit to a little confusion about exactly where Bob draws the line on disagreement with policy. At what point, exactly, does ones disagreement become so egregious as to require us, ethically, to withdraw. I mean, obviously, if you don't like the change in the First Class requirements you can grumble but go forward. Obviously, if you disagree with the premise that scouting is for the purpose of instilling character and citizenship in youth, you probably should go elsewhere. I certainly disagree with many of the policies of the United States government. I express these through letters to the editor and to elected politicians. If things were bad enough, I might carry a sign to protest. Does that make me a bad citizen? Should I move to England or Germany? I'm sorry, BW, but your position just does not make any sense to me. I fully admit I don't know enough about the individual situations to make informed decisions about how these dissenters earned being thrown out, but I have seen enough to make me curious. It certainly seems prudent to me to discuss these things anonymously among a group of experienced Scouters. I just don't see your point. I do see that you have a strong idea of loyalty and that you fully support the BSA. You also are very knowledgeable. But I don't think you are qualified to judge whether another Scouter should leave the program over disagreements with policy. Especially if such Scouter is performing a service and delivering the BSA program, perfectly or imperfectly.

My opinion is that to wear the uniform in the light of day but criticize the BSA in the dark is unethical. So it would make no difference to you if the person in question is doing a great job of contributing to the development of youth in his troop? This is not about whether the BSA is being scoutlike, it is about whether the hypocritical volunteer is being scoutlike. The BSA says they are not and so removes the conflict by letting you leave. And is the BSA, in fact, removing them for being unscoutlike or because their views are not appreciated, assuming that one is scoutlike in the way the disagreements are presented? Strikes me this program is about boys! If you can run a good scouting program for them, I don't see why it matters if they disagree with some of the "values" of scouting. I haven't seen anything here that indicates the disagreements have extended to program in a unit.

With all the negativity found elsewhere in this forum, I thought it might be enlightening to quote what "Kimo" Wilder, Chief Seascout, wrote at the end of one of his summer Seascoutcamp sessions. He traveled every year at his own expense to the East Coast of the U.S. Took about 14 days from Hawai'i in the early twenties. He taught, sailed and led activities. He was at this time in his fifties. In his log, at the end of one session he wrote this addendum: Boys begin to go at about eleven. This is quite sad. At least ten of them thank mefor what? I thank them . . . Very sad . . .I have a lump. . . Raining! All over!

Good luck, MajBob, with your website. I've done a couple over the years and you've been given some sources for good graphics. There are technically some, not copyright, but perhaps terms of use (license) violations in using your copy of Frontpage for building a unit website. Personally, I wouldn't be worried about it. In the first place, how's anybody gonna know and second, it's for a charity so I think your liability risk is about zero. I'm a lawyer and wouldn't hesitate for a moment.

So... are there any OTHER new versions of critical pubs that you know of and which our local professionals may not have told us about? (evidently we need to discover this stuff via word of mouth!) My assumption is, if they don't tell you about it, it ain't critical. BSA can come up with more ways to get us to spend money on publications than anybody.

Great story. Believe it or not, I was a leader in Troop 45, Oxford while I was a student at Ole Miss in the 1960's. Great to see they're still around and doing good things.

The problem with McCarthy, I would argue, is that his wild and excessive political campaign did more harm than good to the discovery and suppression of American Communists working in government. Certainly, we now know that much of what McCarthy claimed was true, although we don't know (or at least I don't) whether he knew it was true or not. McCarthy stirred up a hysteria which led to blacklisting in Hollywood and among authors. Yes, some of those guys were communists or communist sympathizers, but most of those were just pretty much harmless cranks. The real danger, as you point out, was among people working in our government. To my knowledge, McCarthy never successfully outed any spies who actually got convicted or deported. The reason that "McCarthyism" has become a dirty word is because he was reckless and shameless in his campaign and didn't care who was damaged by it. If he had been more responsible and actually brought about some good in his efforts, his name might be iconic today.

I would have guessed it wasn't a boy-led troop. Your committee needs training urgently. BTW, welcome aboard!

The province of the committee is to support the program. The job of the SM is to provide the program. The two are not mutually exclusive, but I would tell 'em to put it where the sun doesn't shine. They certainly can set guidlines, but this is out their area.

Sea Scouting is one of the BSA programs most fraught with liability issues. Still, I'm surprised your DE wouldn't have the answers for prospective COs. As long as the proper G2SS procedures are followed and those outlined in the Sea Scout Manual and other training material, liability shouldn't be a problem. All things considered, marinas and yacht clubs make better sponsors, since they are used to the safety and liability aspects. Owning boats is a scary proposition for many COs, but you can get around it by 1) creating your own non-profit 501©(3) corporation (which is what many successful SS units do); 2) Letting the Council own the boats. That's a decision the SE can make, if he is so inclined; or 3)not owning any boats. Probably less desirable, since the ability to accept donated boats and resell them is one of the best ways to make the kind of money you need to run a good SS unit. If you use your own boat, be sure it meets all USCG recommended safety requirements and has a current CME inspection from the USCG or USPS. As has been pointed out, BSA will take care of your legal defense issues as long as you have been following proper procedures. However, it never hurts for anyone in the BSA or not to have a multi-million dollar umbrella liability policy, which isn't all that expensive when added to your homeowners coverage.

I agree with OGE. The committee has to approve all adult leaders, but unless they can show some significant violation of actual policy, the SM should be able to call the shots on ASM's. I would walk out on them if they didn't back off. Sounds like somebodys son got po'd at the ASM in question and has the TC stirred up.

I would vote for the cooks at summer camp, OA retreats and adult leader functions. Sometimes justifiably unappreciated. Seriously, I agree that recognition is important, no matter what the job is. Nobody ever left because they got too much recognition. I also agree that you must appreciate yourself and the job you are doing, otherwise it is meaningless. Regarding recognition at the higher levels (District Award of Merit, Silver Beaver, etc), there is an old maxim, "S/he who tooteth not his/her own horn, the same shall not be tooted."

Katydid: sounds like you've gotten some good advice. My own advice would be, as usual, to keep the district and council out of it unless it turns into a real knock-down, drag-out, bare knuckle squabble. Sounds like everybody concerned with the troop is on the same page. Your committee with the consent and, hopefully, involvement of the COR, can simply call in the SM, thank him for his service, announce that an interim SM has been appointed (that could be anybody on the committee or leader staff) and then start looking for a new SM. Good luck! I've been thru a few of those myself and it's never easy, but sounds like it's necessary here.

It's true that a troop Philmont or Jambo trip would be good for the unit, but most units wouldn't be able to pull it off. The reservation problem for Philmont is sure to be a difficult obstacle, but transportation, training and equipping are big considerations, too. A partial solution is that boys tend to go in groups to both, so usually there are groups of kids from a unit that may go, or at least pairs.

As I was doing some of my research I was reminded of summer camps of old. I wonder how many of us remember those days. Even when I was a kid, most Scouts didn't go to summer camp with their troop. In fact, most troops didn't go to summer camp as a troop. In our town, you got all the paperwork from your troop, then signed up for the week or weeks you wanted with the council office. In the early days of the BSA, most Scout camps operated this way, with a large staff of what we would consider provisional troops. Of course, the kids got the benefit of the skills and fun of summer camp, and the adults got the benefit of staying home , but it didn't benefit the troop in the way today's Scout camps do. It's true that some troops ran their own summer camp, but then they missed out on the interaction with other troops. Sometimes, not everything about the "good old days" was better than today.