Kahuna

This would be a very useful discussion if one were studying math, algebra, geometry or considering purchasing a Micky D's franchise. I don't see much of value here with regard to the BSA. In fact, I'm not sure I see the relevance of much here to anything. If we're talking about disparity in treatment of St Jean and Smith (and I believe way back there, we were), there may or may not have been. However, if anyone expects the BSA to operate anymore perfectly than any other organization, they are being unrealistic. I have said before that the men who run BSA are the professionals, because their livelihoods depend on it. It's sort of like the politicians we have: we elect them, we pay their salaries and yet they pretty much do what they durn well please. If you are going to be a volunteer in Scouting, you have to take it as it is. That doesn't mean you can't involve yourself in attempts at change. Get elected to the executive board, be part of your district committee, if you want. As for me, my philosophy has always been to look out for myself and my unit. I take the training, stay in touch with council programs and touch base with my DE once in while. I don't agree with everything that national or local council does, but most of it doesn't affect me. I hate it when they sell of properties like Owasippe and MacGregor Smith, but there isn't much I can do about it. Those men at national are not stupid. They have a finger up at all times, testing the winds. When wind directions change, so do they. Somewhat like churches, they may change slowly and sometimes they miss the mark, but what organization doesn't?

Yeah, FEMA could have done better and it sounds like the scapegoat will be Brown. It would have gone much better if they'd had a Rudy Guilliani type out there with a bull horn. Congress is already set to investigate. It'll go according to party lines. It just pulls my chain that the mainstream media is crucifying Bush over this when the primary fault is the locals on this one. And Jesse Jackson is out there screaming that if all those people were white, they would have been miraculously rescued. I can't see that race had anything to do with any of it.

I just can't let this go by. On another thread, it was alleged that the Bush administration was incompetent in failing the people of Louisiana during hurricane Katrina. How can that be? Primary responsibility for protection of it's citizens is, first, city and county, and, second, state authorities. The federal government cannot get involved until requested by the state. In this case, the mayor of NO had enough busses on hand to evacuate every man, woman and child to shelters away from the city. The busses are still sitting in a flooded parking lot. Those busses carry a lot more school kids every day than the total number of evacuaees in NO. The Governor of Louisiana could have invited the feds in, but expressly told them to stay out. Still, the Governor didn't deploy the National Guard for protection and evacuation. When hurricane Andrew passed thru Miami, the National Guard was out the next day, with shoot-to-kill orders for looters. The City of NO is a notoriously corrupt and incompetent government. It's police department has been a national scandal for years. When Katrina hit, the department fell apart. The police simply fled (I don't mean during the hurricane, I mean before and after). What was the mayor/governor's plan for keeping all those people safe in the Superdome? None, apparently. The feds could not send in active duty troops to enforce the peace, because of the Posse Comitatus Act, which forbids using military to enforce civilian law. The Bush administration and FEMA could not have magically appeared on the scene. Even after Andrew, where there were no flood waters, it took a few days to get FEMA operations going on the ground. In NO, they had to do it in an underwater city. So, given all this, and given that FEMA is not quite as good as it was before Homeland Security (and I guess you can lay that at Bush's doorstep), how can the Bush administration be responsible for this tragedy?

Well, now we know. It's Roberts. Bush must feel pretty good about the reception Roberts has been getting so he got the nod. I was betting on Scalia or Thomas, but this guy will have an easier time getting confirmed than either of them. As to Kamehameha Schools, I'm sure if anybody has the funds to go to the SCOTUS, it would be them. I don't know if they will win or not. I think that, like the BSA, a private school is private. They should be able to set their own admissions agenda. But that standard has not been universally adhered to by the courts.

Baden said it very well. Those programs are certainly not necessary to a good scouting experience, but they broaden the horizens of adults and boys alike. You also get to meet some really wonderful people that you wouldn't have at home. As a Scoutmaster I never pushed kids to attend either, but made sure they were aware of the opportunities. I attended one Jambo as an adult, one Philmont trek and two years on staff at Philmont. Wouldn't trade any of them.

OGE: While I agree with FB, I would also throw in that judges and justices are appointed by different presidents. Some of them are activist liberals and some are activist conservatives. They also tend to reflect the area of the country they serve in. The Ninth Circuit in San Francisco is hands down the most activist judicial circuit in the U.S. The Supreme Court is composed of nine people who are appointed by different presidents. They also change over time. Some become more liberal with time, as did Sandra Day O'Conner. By and large, the Supreme Court is much more conservative than it was under Earl Warren and his successors until Rehnquist. Still, it takes a 5-4 vote to change anything. Also, judges like Rehnquist tend to believe in stare decisis, which means that they don't like the idea of revisiting the same issues over and over again. It creates chaos in law. A lot of them, as Roberts claims to be, are strict constructionists, who believe if you can't read it in the Constitution you shouldn't read it into the Constitution. Others think it's just fine to interpret the Constitution to suit your ideas of right and wrong. So, IMHO, the Supreme Court has become more centrist rather than conservative at the same time that other courts have become more liberal and activist. In the opinion of many liberals in the media, centrist means conservative and they don't like it, which is why you hear a lot about how conservative the Court has become. I don't know if this makes any sense, but it's how I see it.

An interesting question. It MAY be useful to find out what the prospect's scouting background is, but not necessarily. Nobody under the age of 40 or so ever had more background in scouting than me. I was an Eagle Scout, Vigil Honor OA, 2-Bead Woodbadger, etc., etc. But I didn't understand going in what the DE's job really was and if I had, I would never have applied for it. Once I was in, I could have been rescued perhaps, by some decent mentoring. When I was commissioned in the Air Force, I knew a lot about the military and sought out some NCO's who could keep me on the straight and narrow. Unfortunately, that really isn't possible in the BSA. If a new DE goes to volunteers for guidance, s/he won't get the right guidance unless s/he is very lucky. Why? Because most volunteers don't understand what the DE is really there to do. Nobody in senior professional leadership was interested in mentoring in those days and I doubt they are now. I don't know how it is in most councils, but I am registered in two (one in Florida and the other in Hawai'i) and both have a fairly high turnover of new DE's. Much higher here than on the mainland, because we have smaller pool of prospects to choose from. I don't guess I have a real bottom line to this, except that I have no idea what to ask a prospective new DE. Maybe it would be: Have you followed a DE around for a month or so to see what the job is really like and can you do it?

Twelve year old Scouts sometimes have great thoughts! Believe it or not, we actually have a family staying with in-laws all the way out here from New Orleans with a couple of Scout age boys. They must be everywhere and will be dislocated for a long time.

As I understand the story so far (TV Indians excluded), it appears that St Jean may not have been eligible for retirement and Smith was. Do we know if that's so? If one was and one wasn't, that could explain the difference. I think it's unfair to speculate on what Smith may or may not have done, apart from distributing kiddie porn, which I understand to mean he shared it with other pedophiles, as opposed to producing and selling.

I agree with Ed. I could make up a heck of a skit out of all this. Packsaddle: I agree with you, too. If associating with gays makes us suspect, we're in trouble. I really hope there was more to the St. Jean firing than going to a gay retreat or resort or whatever it was. In Key West, it's hard to tell the difference and I don't mean that in a snide way. It's just the way it is down in the Conch Republic. Bob: Lighten up, will ya? You must see that this is exactly what makes you the target you complain about being.

As a program matter, some might wish to remind Scouts that Friday, September 2, marks the 60th anniversary of the signing of the documents that ended WWII in Tokyo Bay. There will be a lot of veterans of that war for whom this will be the last major anniversary. No one knows for sure the death toll in the war, but 60 million seems to be an accepted guesstimate. 500,000 of those were Americans.

packsaddle writes: So....if the CO owns all the stuff, and if BSA is not rechartering units to public schools, does this mean that the troops going to a new CO have to start from scratch - no equipment, no bank account, etc.? I think any CO who terminates it's unit is bound to either give the unit the gear or donate it to the council. However, that's one of the reasons I would never allow the CO to own the equipment. You get around that by creating an organization, preferably a 501©(3) corporation to own the equipment and lease it to the unit for $1.00 a year. Another good reason for a non-profit is to sponsor yourself if you can find a meeting place. I hear a lot about CO's here and most of it substantiates my own experience over the years: most of them just want to have the charter on the wall and not have to do anything at all. If you sponsor yourself thru a corporation, you can avoid a lot of the hassles. Of course, there are some really great CO's out there, but I haven't found many who really want to take an active role.

FB: None at all, in fact! Time and space are only relevant in dealing with airline travel. Or perhaps more on a bus trip with 30 Scouts.

FB: No problem, you didn't make me uncomfortable at all. As I mentioned, I took the exercise in the spirit it was meant, I think. Those are important questions for each of us to understand in our own lives and I benefitted greatly from looking at my own beliefs. BTW, we do about the same thing at our center on Tuesday nights. It's one of those you never know who will show up sessions, and we meditate and then have a reading from dharma. We do the same on Thursday nights and Sunday mornings, but I am not as regular in attendance as I need to be. I do, however, make it a point to meditate for a few minutes every day. It does indeed help us with clarity of thought.

FB: I would not feel comfortable in sharing my answers to your questions (and they would not necessarily be the same as any other Buddhist), but I want to thank you for posting them. They made me think and read a bit about what I believe the answers are.

Yeah, the liberal take on everything positive is negative. Nothing new there! I have witnessed Scouts behaving as she describes, however, and it certainly doesn't speak well for the leaders. I made three trips to Washington with groups of Scouts and every one of them knew that behavior like that, if repeated, would put them on the first flight home. Our boys goofed around as much as any, but we made them understand that when they were in public, and especially in public at places like Ms. Rood mentions, they were expected to have some decorum (nothing excessive, mind you ).

Good to see a positive, and especially historical, item about scouting in any paper.

I totally agree that YPT is more valuable as a protection for non-predator leaders and almost not at all for predators. If the leader was able to find a boy willing to go alone to his home, no other leaders are going to know about it. These guys are very talented in many cases and can find ways around almost anything. Unless parents lock their kids up in their homes and accompany them everywhere, there's always going to be an opportunity. You can't realistically do any more than the BSA does to protect youth. It's just a fact that there are many reasons to be involved in scouting and this is one of them. If we realize that and keep our eyes open, we can probably head off some of the predators, but this will always happen.

His response was "Sir, they are now soldiers in the U.S. Army, you may have them back as Eagle Scouts when they leave us." Typical military stupidity! Wait 10 years until this guy is a retired colonel and ask him if considers himself a "former colonel." He will tell you a former colonel is one whose rank has been taken away by the Army. Some of those Old Guard soldiers my be registered Scouters. Being a soldier has nothing to do with being an Eagle Scout. A former Eagle Scout is one whose Eagle rank has been taken away by the National Council.

Now that the skills have been explained, I fail to see the difference. Yes, we have to read the book, but all answers are not to be found in the books. The reason we are called leaders is that we are supposed to use our JUDGMENT. I would require a boy be able to jump into water substantially over his head.

I was thinking about this yesterday afternoon as I took my daily swim. As an old Red Cross WSI, I don't think I would pass a boy who wouldn't jump into water deep enough that his feet won't touch bottom. The point of the exercise is not whether he can swim in water over his head, but whether he knows how to enter the water properly and with confidence. With the younger ones, I wouldn't insist they do it in dark lake, but I would want to work on that, since that is the situation where it would come up, not in a crystal clear pool with depth markers on the side. As Bob White says, you have to read the background in the book as well as the mere language of the requirement. Scoutmasters can interpret this differently, but that's my thinking. Of course, with most kids in Hawai'i and Florida, where I've spent most of my scouting career, this is not much of a problem.

So "BSA, love it or leave it!"? I don't know about you, but I don't think I've ever been a member of an organization that I agreed with 100% on every issue. That includes the BSA, the USAF and a host of others. Although I think a lot of people are leaving and not joining because of some policies of the BSA and the increasing amount of YP rigamarole and G2SS we have to keep up with. I have a lot of trouble accepting some of those doctrines. I certainly think we could have a BSA program that involved gays or atheists (and have said before that I predict we WILL have when we start losing more than we gain). But I still think the BSA is the only youth organization doing anything to build character and instill citizenship and leadership qualities in youth in any numbers. I think it is better than no BSA and am egocentric enough to believe it is better off with me than without me. (Besides, I haven't got my Silver Buffalo yet .) There may come a time when I find it too disagreeable to remain, but for the next few years, I'll stick with it, warts and all.

Prairie Scouter writes: I was wondering if anyone in this discussion knows why BSA allowed the LDS units to discriminate as they seem to have done if this was against BSA policy? I know some will object to my take on that, but I believe the BSA is a very pragmatic business organization. The LDS membership is an enormous percentage of our total membership and has been for a long time. Without the LDS church, the BSA would be an entirely different organization. Like most businesses (and despite our lofty ideals), I think the BSA is willing to be very forgiving of a large volume "customer."

It certainly is a good place to visit. I also enjoy "rabbit trails" when discussions veer around. We certainly have a lot of different personalities and motives represented, but all in all I would say we have a group of very knowledgeable Scouters with a variety of viewpoints that it would be hard to find anywhere else.

Eamonn writes: If they do need to change the location, I still want Palm Trees!! There's a huge ranch on the Big Island of Hawai'i. Perfect weather, very little rain in summer, nice flat land, side trips to beaches and active volcano. The bad news: you can't get there by bus or train. OTOH, air fares aren't much worse to here from most places than to Northern Virginia. Sure would be different!