jtswestark

We just played it again at the NLS a couple weeks back - great game! Be ready for some fun spirited arguements! While it may be protected it is open for Ordeal and Brotherhood members. There's enough great stuff to know that all can participate. We've also used it at section Council of Chief events, ALTC, and Conclaves.

Your lodge advisor should be able to direct you to the right section folks to get a loaner copy.

Jack

Yep, this needs to be taken up the ladder.

As a parent or leader, I wouldn't hesitate to bring this right into the Council's Office. This is outright wrong in so many ways, even having the SM Dad pointing it out shouldn't be any issue once someone with half a brain sees what is going on.

Don't let another day go by. Get some attention on this as soon as you can.

JTS

This is a troop issue then? I agree, this is much more than Ive tasked any of my Eagle candidates for in their proposal stage. Get some additional advice here, your CC should be made aware of this. Your district advancement committee can assist, but get your CC involved first. Any other reasons going on here - ie: is it possible there are thoughts that your son isn't ready for his project yet, some stalling going on? Regardless, this isn't proper so deal with these issus first. Is it possible to ask for another advisor?

Get some help here within your unit first, this sounds way over the top to me.

Jack

Crap, you're right!

Ok - I'll modify that - the 11th came out in '98/99, so for about the last 10 years it's been shown underneath.

I didn't earn the AOL, but still don't remember seeing anyone wearing it on the pocket.

Aren't most now just using the pin anyways?

Apologies,

Jack

May I ask one of you all to explain what he was cataloguing?

Thanks,

Jack

I am trying to compile some historical information on our lodge's conclave history (Sipp-O 377). Prior to 1961 it's fairly spotty. Trying to find out which lodges hosted the conclaves, where they were held, and which lodges attended.

If there's anyone out there that has any information on it that would be willing to share I would be greatly appreciative. You can either post here or PM to me.

YiB,

Jack

In any insignia guide, literature, or handbook I have, or even in real practce, I've never seen it on the pocket, always below. Keep it there and this issue takes care of itself. Besides - that's a lot of work to put that on a pocket!

Jack(This message has been edited by jtswestark)

That's great - be proud of those boys! Make sure your historian keeps a copy of that, may come in handy for an Eagle COH....

We wouldn't be doing that because we don't let them bring electronics... but that's a fantastic reason to bend that rule a little!

Great job!

Jack

I wear a 1981 from my teen years on one of my shirts and a 2005 with the leader ring. When I was out recruiting for 2010, it certainly gave me a little more credibility in the eyes of Scouts that didn't know me. We talk about walking the walk a lot, I say wear them and lead by example.

Jack

Wiki:

Royal Rangers is a worldwide ministry of the Assemblies of God and is designed to provide young boys with challenging activities while providing them with religious instruction. A camping theme is at the heart of most activities, along with a merit award system whereby Royal Rangers must demonstrate specific knowledge and abilities. This ministry was developed by North Texas Youth Director Rev. John Henry "Johnnie" Barnes in 1962, and since then it has spread from the Assemblies of God to many other denominations (notably the International Pentecostal Holiness Church) and from the United States to over 73 countries. Royal Rangers ministry is an alternative to the more secular youth movement Scouting. Royal Rangers International is open to participation of both boys and girls, while the US only allows boy participation.

One of the founders of my Troop lost faith in the BSA and not only left our United Brethren Church when we merged with the Methodist Church, but also founded a RR unit at his new Church. We lost a couple boys to it. They had many similar activities as us, including their own Klondike. But I dont think it lasted but a few years and that church has gone onto sponsor Cub Packs and a BS Troop.

Jack

Go for a hike this weekend or go camping. Forget about the election for the weekend and leave off the TV. Appreciate some of the seemingly little but actually very important parts of this wonderful world.

You'll feel better, I promise!

Ok, that's all well and good, for the CC side of the process. But I still don't see any real problem with letting at least the CC know you 'if the need should arise'... If I were agressive about it then that's a different story and there's your red flags, no doubt.

Anyways, just my opinion, of a current SM. If I know a particular Dad/ASM is interested, and I have a good feeling about him them I'd feel better about moving on. If I don't have that good feeling, or nobody is on the radar, then I might hang on longer than is really good for the unit. But because there isn't anyone on the radar, the CC may be accepting of my performance, even if I see it as going downhill (which is exactly what was happening to my predecessor - hung on for nearly 18 years!). Each situation will obviously differ with the each player's relationship. All I can do is imagine my committee and knowing how my parents work together. I don't think there'd be a red flag among them... but if we should get a new player suddenly on the scene making waves I could certainly see flags going up.

Jack

Beav - I dont think I agree with that. They ask for coaches at sign up, and you get to nominate yourself at that time. I know Ive been disappointed at least once when I see a coach that was selected that I or others were way more qualified than, but nobody knew I was interested in the position because it felt odd nominating myself. Or at work when a vacancy comes up, we may ask for internal applicants - equally as appropriate.

There may be plenty of things going on between the SM & CC that no one else is aware of. Maybe all the current SM needs to know is that someone else is actually interested and that gets them off the hook. My preceeding SM hung on for years because no one else was expressing any interest. Now, qualifying wtih I am not a CC: What I would consider a red flag is someone undermining the SM and doing things behind his back, without his approval (been there and didnt like it one bit!). But I dont see anything wrong at all with offering in a low keyed and humble manner if theres ever a need, Id be interested and leave it at that? But make sure its left at that, make the offer once and let things go from there.

JTS

Lots of baggage and boundry issues here, but it simply sounds to me that the SM needs to reign things in.

Anytime I come into a new leadership/managerial position, whether professional or volunteer, one of the first things I do is to hold a meeting and spell out what my approach is, whose job is what, and how I want things done. It certainly can ruffle some feathers, but it's necessary to establish authority. Then there must be consistent follow through with the points made in front of everyone or forget any credibility. This is what he needs to do to get this guy under control and everyone on the same page.

In our district, the SM is automatically the counselor for Hiking, Cooking, and Camping.

I was chair of our last Spring Camporee where we offered a program for Wilderness Survival, so I signed up as a counselor only for the weekend for that one.

Swimming and Personal Fitness (I think) in the recent counselor drive. One of my Troop Dads became the District MB Counselor so as always, I pitched in to help. But I really dont have time for much else!

Great advice from Gunny & Scott! I returned to Boy Scouting when my son was in Webelos. I wasnt an ASM long, but was lucky to have the outgoing SM mentor me for over a year.

I would suggest you get signed up as an ASM and get trained right away. But then learn patiently: Scouting is a journey for us as it is for the Scouts. If I had a buck for every new leader that came in blazing guns about doing this or that, only to find that six months later theyre onto the next shiny object that caught their eye and Im stuck finishing up their incomplete projects. Dont be that! If the situation is good, you will know it. If the committee sees that you bring good and stable leadership to the troop, they may ask you. You can drop some subtle hints that you would like the role, but unless theres a reason to change the committee and the SM wont be very interested in making one. Dont start undermining a situation that is working well. Now that said, he needs a break every now and then. Without one he will burn out much faster and end up leaving. You can really help by being a strong backup to reliably be able to let him miss some meetings and campouts here and there. Youll find your comfort place, be content and accept what is best for the Troop.

As far as being your sons SM, its not all that its cracked up to be. The SM I replaced taught me a huge lesson for leaders: you watch my son, Ill watch yours. And I tried to always do that. My son has never come to me for a SM conference (but I've playfully been accused 'he probably gets one every evening going home after Scouts!); and Ive always been able to keep an arms length away from him during Scouting events. In fact, in the beginning he probably had a harder road because of my expectations. Proudly, they arent my expectations anymore, they are his own. Hes succeeding in Scouting because of himself, not me, and his Scouting resume will rival most (way past mine). I dont want crap like Prairie stated to be said about him. He values and lives this stuff, way more than I ever did as a kid. Lesson learned and goals achieved: what more could a SM or a Dad want?

(This message has been edited by jtswestark)

We had this exact issue with a Life Scout that transferred into our Troop. He had gotten a partial MB from his old SM. Same deal, took him a couple years to get around to finishing it. But the SM/counselor was no longer in the area nor in Scouting. I told him to either get another counselor and do it again or get the paperwork to him to register and finish the MB. He took the second option and the Eagle paperwork went through without any hitches. I cant remember how it was realized that the SM/counselor wasnt registered anymore; maybe the SM himself said so and wanted the kid to head off any issues down the road. We were in a different district than the Scout came from, so it is very doubtful anyone wouldve even caught it.

Jack(This message has been edited by jtswestark)

Ask any SM why he does this, and the answer will hopefully be because its for the boys. Yes, a plaque would be nice to hang on the wall. Whenever I walk past our Eagle Honor Roll in our Fellowship Hall I have to stop and look at it, reminding myself of each and every boy thats on the list and many others that didnt quite make it. Especially when Im turning off the lights and locking up after our weekly meeting and Im the only one in the church. A quiet time to reflect.

To me, my prized memories are working with the boys and watching them grow. A photo book with many pictures of events and Scouts would probably be the best thing I can imagine when my time is up. Last Christmas one of our Scout Moms took our group picture from summer camp and put it inside one of those photo coffee mugs. Its my most prized mug and I take it everywhere. Not expensive but very meaningful, I get a lot of compliments on it too. Its about them, not us.

Jack

Tell them to get involved, or get out.

Yeah, thatll work.

Any new SM with existing Scouts has to deal with this: a new sheriff rolls in and upsets their apple cart with all these new ways and expectations. I agree with most advice that has been given; its no different than a new coach taking on a team that has established upper classmen starters. I think you need to first decide if these guys are salvageable (sounds like at least the one is). Then the SM needs to show them a little respect by bringing them on board, telling them how important their experience is to the troop and put them in positions of authority with the freedom to do the jobs and the adult support to help them along and learn what they need. Work to get them on board: you must get them to buy in. The WORST thing to do is exactly what has been done: pushing them aside and working around them. Better off just telling them to not come back than doing that. Give them some special perks that they may not even have earned, but do it anyway and itll pay back tenfold (if it doesnt, then they arent salvageable). Get an ASM they can relate to working with them on some cool high adventure trips or events. Show them you havent forgotten about them and do care how they are doing (attitude reflects leadership). Theyll need to eventually make their own choice about moving on or becoming the leaders that take the troop in a new direction. If all this gets you nowhere, then eventually a parents meeting needs to be called to address. Sometimes they do need to move on and a nudge from a new leader may make the parents finally realize it.

But ultimatums dont work and you cant cherry pick which Scouts you want to work with.

Re-registering benefits in two ways - solves your son's problem, plus brings back an additional and experienced counselor to the MB list.

You said 'advancement committee', assuming you meant the troop's adv committee/chair? Interesting. A proactive advancement person would see this as an opportunity to get an easy sign-up for the counselor list. I would ask your advancement person to get a registration form to this counselor to remedy the road block they decided needed to be there. Wow, way to create a problem.

JTS(This message has been edited by jtswestark)

Or get the past counselor re-registered & problem solved!

I was a 14 year old Eagle, and yes, I earned it myself, too.

What really makes me mad was that someone didnt pull me aside and tell me to enjoy the ride. I was too focused on the goal. And when I reached the goal, I faded quickly from Scouting. I missed going on into doing more with OA, JLT, working on Camp Staff, Philmont etc I popped in here and there with my troop to strut around as a past Eagle, but didnt take in the whole experience. I missed out on a lot of growth and reinforcement that wouldve very much helped me later in my teen years when I badly needed Scoutings positive influences in my life. Maybe the issue wasnt that I had my Eagle early, but that others around me didnt encourage me enough to take advantage of those opportunities. Or maybe they did and I just wasnt interested in listening. But I do know that once I had my Eagle there was nothing to keep me coming back and being active in the Troop. Thats when I started to lose interest in Scouting.

I dont believe in 13 year old Eagles either.

Jack

What bothers me as a SM is when I have a parent second guessing me. Especially when the parent is pointing to chapter and verse about how Im supposed to be doing it, I get a little aggravated. Too many of those and Im done. Not because of my ego, but because either I am really screwing things up or theres enough people in that troop that obviously want things done differently. Any constructive problem solving methods are going to include an opportunity for a SM to explain his thinking. He may simply have made a mistake! May have misunderstood something! He may have a point to his plan that you are completely missing. He may have told your son something that wasnt relayed to you. As others have pointed out, constructively, you sound like a helicopter Mom. Do you want to solve this issue constructively for the growth of your son or to prove a point that hes wrong and youre right?

I hold off my advancement SM conferences for the very last requirement before the BOR. If during our conference the Scout can see that maybe he isnt ready for advancement, I wont sign his book and we agree to talk again within a specified amount of time about his performance and try again within a month or two. Rarely, if ever, is there a time when he isnt ready the second time we sit. But thats my style, and it differs from many others. He may have his own approach; a rhetorical: do you know what it is?

Do you value your SM? Or worded properly: does your SON value his SM? This man was selected to be the SM of the troop for a reason, and hopefully a part of that reason was that he has shown an ability to use some pretty decent judgment. He is trained, are you? Dont forget, he is probably learning as well, a young troop, this may be his first time when he has to deal with a sticky situation. Its not easy when its the son of active parents involved.

I would give you two different pieces of advice to choose from:

1.) Stay home for a while. Let your son handle this himself. Dont even ask him about it; back off. Hell come to you when he wants to share. Continuing to ask him about it will only cause it to become more of a stressor.

Or

2.) Ask the very fair question of the SM at a time when the two of you can talk uninterrupted and without wandering ears: teach me because I want to learn = not because I think youre screwing my son. Offer him an olive branch and take the high road. Once the SM sees that you truly want to understand for the betterment of the troop, the barrier will come down and he will spill his guts. Good luck in your dilemma.

JTS

We use JASM in the same manner as SR540, they are winding things down. I want to treat them with the respect theyve earned and the special treatment is warranted. In my troop, its tough to put a 16 or 17 year old nearly Eagle or Eagle back into a patrol with 11 and 12 year olds and have him stay interested and contribute very long. It can also undermind the development of a new or younger PL. If they want to go into a patrol, cool, let them. But most arent all that interested. They want to be with their buddies that are in troop leadership and sometimes with adults. So we welcome them in the leadership patrol, we cook for them sometimes and let them bask in the comfort that theyve earned. I am proud that many of my guys are active in the OA Lodge, work on camp staff, and do more with high adventure. They may only come to a troop campout here and there, while juggling all the other elder teen activities they do with sports, girls, jobs, plays, college entrance exams, visitations, etc I dont want to force the older guys away, I dont want them to make a choice because most often Scouts will loose. In fact I keep asking them to come back and go out of my way to welcome them when they do. Whatever way they feel comfortable giving back to the troop is fine with me. JASM is a reward for all theyve earned and lets them ride out their youth in Scouting on their terms, simple as that.

Jack

Weve done these a number of times, usually end up with hundreds to retire. The cloth ones burn well, but slow, and the nylon smolder and melt if the fire isn't really hot. The nylons do take forever as well. One year the SPL wrote up a program and they cut a huge one all into pieces. It was nylon and as they put the strips on the fire each smoldered and the smoke started engulfing them and the first three rows of Cubs... by the time they were done with the one and through their script they were black as night and coughing all over the place! Oh what a wonderful mess!

Anymore we prepare by going through and folding them as best we can. Then place them on the fire folded one, two, or three at a time. Too many will smother the fire; have had more than one fire before, too. We try to do it typically with a Pack, we have each Cub that wants one place it on the fire. Recently the boys keep asking me to do the talking. I come from a family that is not necessarily gung hoe military, but most of us men have done at least a few years in the service of our country. So it means something maybe a little more to me when we do these. The first few times I nervously used written scripts, but they seemed too canned. So any more I just wing it talking about the history of flags, what the different parts indicate, what some of the urban legends are, talk about the grommets I deliver in a sober and monotone delivery, with plenty of breaks and pauses in between sentences. I never imagined I could keep a group of Cubs and Webelos attention for so long! But you cant stretch it out too long, need to pick up on folks getting fidgety and start winding it down. Then you can excuse the bulk of the folks while the older and really interested guys finish placing the flags on the flames. You need to watch it closely, the first time they start getting lazy or start heaving them on the fire were done. Stop it and save the rest for another time. Thats when someone gets burned or nearly as bad, start being disrespectful to our American Flag. I wont tolerate that, and the older guys usually know that and keep things in line. In the morning the older guys do dig out all the remnants to burn again. Sometimes theyve washed up the grommets and given them to the Cubs as a good luck keepsake. Some end up on their patrol or den flags.

Nothing spectacular, nothing elaborate, keep it simple and keep it respectful. We always have too many to get done and that explains why we respectfully move it along. Our guys really do like retiring them. In fact they just asked me about doing it again this winter. Its an important part of teaching citizenship, not just about our flag, but a great opportunity to talk about the great country we live in. Especially during a time that we need to be talking about such things.

A pet peeve - we 'retire flags', not 'burn flags'; whole different connotation.

Jack