jtswestark

Ditto mikecummings & E92, but we also had the candidates write up a quick reason why they wanted to be SPL and (more importantly) required one of the parents to sign it. We wanted to make sure the parent knew what their son was ready to commit to especially if he wasnt driving yet. Those were required to be turned in to the SM before the elections. The SM would observe the counting, just like in OA, but the outgoing SPL would announce the winner, pass on his legacy materials, and induct the new SPL officially. Watching the speeches and Q&A from the boys before the voting was always an adventure...!

Our Troop chartered typically 25ish, so we had plenty of guys to fill leadership roles. I would only allow them to take on one role at a term (6 months). If they did that one role well, then I was ecstatic! The ASPL becomes a real lynchpin in the troop operation by making sure all the additional PORs/POLs were doing their jobs.

Back in the day, there was a local small troop that a buddy was in. A number of the boys smuggled some beer and pot on a campout and apparently the adult leaders didn't stop it. Council yanked the troop's charter after a couple parents reported it. No second chances. I don't know if any of the boys tried to transfer to another troop, I think they all just let it go.

I personally have been made aware of things I wish I hadn't at summer camp. Things that shouldn't have been tolerated but selective enforcement was applied, sadly. I'm sure most of us can say the same that have been around Scouting for more than a few years. Good kids, as most of us were, make some choices that have ramifications. My son learned that himself the hard way last summer.

The beautiful part about Scouting is when guys do get in trouble for 'boys will be boys' kinds of antics, they are always welcome back the following year with a clean slate. They are given the chance to redeem themselves.

I've found when it comes to these kind of indiscretions, my presentation as SM was vastly different than that of anyone else in his sphere of influence. A long term SM has a very unique relationship with most boys. Ive had kids exhibit different behaviors that I deemed unacceptable in a Scouting environment and I called them on it. that may be fine at home/school, but it isnt here and this is why were not going to tolerate it Would this behavior be acceptable at home/school? Then why would you think you can get away with it here? What do you think would happen if a police officer were called when you got caught? "what kind of safety problems could've occured after you did that?"...

This particular kid and adult(s?) need an appropriate punishment for what happened. You have to hope when its handed down its the wake-up he needs. But a two strike rule has to apply and has to be very clear to both the boy, parents, and leaders.

Awful. There's some leaders, a diver master, and a dive buddy that will have nightmares for a long time over this.

I have met the "District" and "Council", and they is us.

Thats beautiful!

A long time ago there was an OA election snafu where someone told someone else something that was incorrect about elections and we had a unit all bent out of shape.

I just happened to be at the next Roundtable in my role as SM when I overhear two leaders that recently became Arrowmen complaining about a recent election. Now, since their Ordeal neither has attended anything in OA nor seen an election done beyond their troop, suddenly both are raging experts on elections announcing to all in earshot that our Lodge does them all wrong. Something to the effect of These guys running these elections and this lodge dont have a clue and have it more screwed up than ever before Seeing the honor of myself and numerous other dedicated advisors in the OA reputation being tarnished, I ask what was wrong. They continue with all kinds of ranting of inaccuracies about an election held at their unit. Famous line I dont care about those guys in the OA anyways, they dont know whats going on around here.

They both had real funny looks on their face when I informed them I was the incompetent adult they referenced in their election story, too bad they werent there that night to witness it themselves and the other adults on our Chapter election team were very well known SMs, ASMs, and UCs in our District that I pointed out from my seat. Neither had the courtesy to apologize.

They are us.

>>No, arrest is a very recent one, one of several increasing recently,

A few years back I got a response from a living person concerning the ScoutZone website (the predecessor to BeAScout.org) and how their searches were based upon only zip code.

The township I lived in was split amongst about five different zip codes and I pleaded with him to adjust his search program to utilized geographical locations instead. After a few very cordial email interactions, we both recognized what I was asking for wasnt going to happen. I dont know if he was a contractor or an employee.

Looks like the BeAScout,org took care of that problem.

Im with SP on this one, been down this road and lost some good kids to Scouting because there was bullying going on behind the scenes. You keep trying to give the kid the benefit of the doubt, expecting him to respond like most kids do, but he doesnt. Time after time. Wreckage along the way, complaints from parents, dropping attendance, fights, broken gear, discipline issues popping up it really becomes a time consuming topic seemingly always centered around one or two boys.

Youre exactly right BP, the large majority of adult leaders arent experienced in dealing with at risk youth. Most of us are just Dads struggling to balance my dinky paycheck and the family with a little time in the middle for fun. I dont have the time or the desire to fix the world I just cant do it all. Most of us didnt sign on to try and fix gang members or felons and honestly, Im a little scared about it and could see the OP was too. Maybe some of you arent so intimidated and God Bless you, Im grateful for what you do for those boys and society. But Im very content giving of my valuable time to a great organization and paying forward some of the things that were done for me. So please dont come down on those us that arent as versed in these areas.

So there's the rest of the story you all need to decide how long and how far you are going to accept a disruptive Scout in your unit. Stay away from anything that occured outside of the Troop. All you can act on is what happens at Scouting events. Someone ultimately will have to make a call on how long you are going to tolerate the youth. Which is a shame as you dont want to force a kid out of what is probably one of the few bright spots in his life. But youve got to do what is best for the unit and other boys in it. Sad to say many times these situations dont have a happy ending.

HA! Whatever happened to BobWhite anyways? Did he finally get banned?

I can't answer your specific questions either, but can offer additional experiences:

My troop had one back in the 70s. We had a number of Scouters that worked for the local school and got an older one donated. Was a great deal as we removed a few of the back seats for boxes and gear and all could ride in one bus. We had a couple ASMs that were drivers for the school so there was always a driver. Another dad was a diesel mechanic so we always had someone to work on it. Until those days ended. No more CDL licensed drivers. No one to donate their time to work on it. Insurance started to climb. The brakes went out one time going up a steep entrance into one of our local camps. Was great while it lasted, but I wouldnt want the headache unless the CO is backing it by covering the big costs and a driver is readily available.

For iPhone, I think all these are free, except one:

Knots Gguide

Shoplist (for camping menus)

SeizeTheDay (a to-do list for meetings, campouts, etc...)

starguide

Chirp! Lite (bird songs id - doesnt record and tell what you are hearing tho)

Helleniechsin (leni lenape translator)

Star Walk - not free, but well worth the couple bucks cost!

There is no valid reason at all to discourage a parent from wanting to watch a ceremony. In fact, I regretted that rarely did a parent of many of our ceremonialists even make an effort to come watch how great of a job their sons did, and most of the fathers were Arrowman themselves. I dragged my wife and daughters out numerous times for tapout ceremonies to make sure she saw how talented our own was in his roles. The pride I felt in him I would never want to stop another parent from feeling. The pride in seeing your son as lodge chief is like that of few other.

The real tragedy that occurs out of this discussion is the presentation by posters that they speak for the OA and speak for what happens in all lodges. I cant control what happens in any lodge other than the one I am a member of, nor can anyone else unless they one of the handful involved on the section, region, or national level.

If any parent approaches any of you to see an OA ceremony that your son is involved in, give them the contact information for your chapter/district advisor or your councils lodge advisor. Nobody else needs to be involved. Dont pretend to be a gatekeeper and prevent it thats not for you to do and you are doing more damage than you realize.

If any leader is unsure about the OA, I challenge you to step up and find out what you dont know about. You can do it in one of two ways

1.) present yourself to your Troop leadership as interested in being an adult nominee and going through an Ordeal yourself. This only happens once a year, so be patient.

2.) Not up for it or maybe not selected? Fine, ask your chapter or lodge advisor to watch a ceremony. Theyll mean absolutely nothing to you and youll be bored to tears. Keep in mind, youll only be watching a ceremony that is meaningless to you since you have no iron in the fire and havent earned the honor of being a participant yourself. If you havent prevented an election, maybe one of your troop members will be going through please be discreet about it and dont embarrass him by making a big deal about it - remember - it's not about you, it's about the youth.

But heres the real catch - the ceremonies are only a small slice of what the OA is. You wont be seeing the youth leadership and interactions that occur in meetings, service events, or games, youll still have no understanding of the brotherhood that develops between these young men and watching the growth that occurs as they control large event budgets, run better committee meetings than many adults, and plan out great weekends with 100s and 1000s of Arrowmen in attendance at. See the travel that takes these young men all over the area and country for training, fun, seminars, fun, fellowships, fun You wont see the relationship that builds between an Arrowman and his advisor over the period of a year. Or in the relationships that last long beyond Scouting years as you watch these young men go onto the adult world with careers and families of their own. Or brotherhood that lasts from childhood through adulthood and into your own children. You wont see any of that in one night in the dark. You have to hang around for a while, be a mentor and brother to see that happen. Sad to say, few ever do.

Or you can take the easy way out and find stupid little statements on a forum board to confirm your over reactive fears in your own small mind and make excuses to keep yourself from growing.

You make the call of what you are going to be. '...be the change you want to see...'

If youre not interested in exposing your Scouts to anything beyond your Troop, feel free to stop them from joining the OA. No growth can be earned from ArrowCorps or SummitCorps... just slave labor. Never mind the fun and fellowship they will develop with Arrowmen in other troops, Districts, Councils, Sections. NOAC is only a huge waste of time. They won't need the personal growth of being a ceremonialist or vice chief of any board activities. Go ahead and tell these young men that all they need to know about Scouting they will learn from their almighty Scoutmaster.

I wonder if you all are the same folks on this board complaining about your 14, 15 and 16 year olds dashing as soon as they get their Eagle, as they are sick and tired of teaching the same first aid and knots year after year to another batch of wild 11 year olds. Look around, plenty of active Arrowmen in their late teens and college years. Look closer, you will see some of the most talented and capable young men in any collective place. I hope none of you plan on attending the new high adventure camp in WVA... they must be up to more no good down there all summer.

Shame on you for thinking you have the right to prevent Scouts from joining a BSA honor organization they may be entitled to join just because you dont have a warm fuzzy about it. The arrogance in these posts just continue to amaze me beyond belief. How sad for you and the boys you influence with that attitude.

Mommy and Daddy want to watch? Fine. Be at this place at this time and well escort you there to witness a ceremony from a distance. You may be able to pick out your son, but his part of the actual ceremony only lasts seconds. At the conclusion, youll be escorted back the parking lot to depart from camp property. We can answer all the questions you have before and after, but you are a guest observing a ceremony that your son and many others have worked and sacrificed all weekend for the right to participate in.

In over 20 years of active service of the OA as a youth and adult advisor, I have never ever had a parent cause a problem over this. However, I HAVE had plenty of idiotic SMs feeling they needed to protect their boys from the evil Arrowmen (quote, unquote) but never a parent. Deal with them respectfully and patiently, make arrangements for them to see the ceremony, but none ever followed through with it. Maybe the fact that most of these parents arent all that interested in when push comes to shove and they realize they have to go tromping out in the woods in the dark, no well lit trails, will get a little muddy, eaten by mosquitoes, wont have a comfy cushion seat to sit in, for about two hours? nah not all that big a deal after all I guess.

Jeese oh man, just direct the parent to look inside the handbook covers. Any Scoutmaster gets this question at least twice a crossover.

If the SM gave a smarmy answer, pull up your big kid boots and pay attention at the next Troop meeting.

Next mountain we can build?

As you can see, it's not a good practice. The SM needs to hear your perspective before he signs off on it.

Fantastic! Please update this thread with his progress - we're now invested in this young man!

I compliment you their interest in your unit is a direct reflection on what they see in your leadership.

They get it they know whats ahead of them and their up for it or they wouldnt be there in the first place. Youve already established an appealing environment and messaging that you arent doing a Baby Sitters of America unit, so keep challenging them and let them lead.

To me, that was the paycheck working with the older guys that got it was one of the best parts of the job.

Enjoy.

Whats make it worse is the guy is only willing to work with his troop. Come on, go big or go home!

Agreed - refuse it as is. I would too ask him for a short meeting and explain that you are looking for experts in areas that can expand the merit badge experience for the boys, not fumble through it. Suggest maybe he pick a handful and provide the qualifications that apply. Make no bones about it and tell him you are looking for qualified experts in these areas only. And try to get him to work with ALL units (whimp). The sad part about it is when you have people that justify this crap due to lack of any counselors (which is another discussion).

Reminds me of the ASM I had that signed up to for Personal Management MB and his qualification was I run my household (he was a quality assurance analyst). The first and last time I ever let a MB class be held at one of our meetings when after the third night only about 3 of our 20 guys showed. I ended the class after correcting his awful and outright wrong explanation of interest.

I think this is a great idea for a project.

Projects benefiting the CO is common place in my neck, Im surprised to hear its not in others so. Better find out if he can!

AFAIR maintenance projects arent prohibited in any national guidelines, so again, may vary by area. (as an aside, its a leadership project maintenance or new should be irrelevant, IMHO).

The historical aspect is exactly what makes this a great idea maybe have your son do a little more research on how he is going to go about refurbishing these pieces. Ie well use gloves, special brass polish brand XYZ, applying special metal sealer ABC, etc and have some idea of what hes going to do and can offer it up in discussion / write up or keep it for when some grumpy guy scrunches his nose about maintenance This may be a very special craftsman work, is there someone around in the community or parish that is in this business that might be his expert reference?

If this were my Scout, Id have him do a little more legwork before writing up a proposal to be able to answer things like the above. My area doesnt require the estimated man hours, budget or bill of materials so again, you need to find out what yours does if youre not sure. That will determine how much digging he needs to do before he officially runs it up the flag pole.

Great idea.

Yup, don't count on the UC to fix it... he isn't a referee/judge, but more like an counselor that can only provide non-binding advice. The current CC is the one that needs to step up and take back the committee roles from this ASM.

I would recommend a 'committee only' meeting with the UC to get some input on this, but ultimately, the action has got to come from the committee itself.

Reads like the COR may be starting to pay attention? That much turnover in the CC role may just do that... you should get the COR involved with that 'committee only' meeting if that's the case to let him know the concerns of yourself and others (hopefully you aren't the only one sounding the alarm here?).

Good luck!

It's better to error on the on the side of caution in areas where you are responsible for other people's kids. No alcohol on weekend or summer camp for adults, leaders or not. Not a good idea at all. There's too many things that can go wrong on a campout anyways, why would you allow this to come into the picture? If a guy can't go a weekend or week camping without a drink - or understand why it isn't a needed, then I don't want that person camping with a unit I'm involved in - he has bigger issues going on. Kids get enough of alcohol influence around them all over the place. It doesn't need to be there in Scouting too.

Running or helping to run a Scout troop is not for the faint of heart. You get pulled in all kinds of directions. You are now a public figure and always under community scrutiny. The hassles mount fast and can get tiring over the years.

I spent a couple days in camp last week with my old unit at our old camp. I watched my successor SM struggle with trying to keep demanding adults happy and still make it a good week for the boys. I had a chance to pull him aside a couple times to let him vent and offer some suggestions since he sorely lacks a UC. I was also glad to relieve him of a couple tasks he shouldnt have been drug into in the first place. It didnt take me long to recall how aggravating the part time leaders can be that take themselves and Scouting too seriously. The arrogance out of some staffers is as bad as ever. Fat and whiny leaders that are never satisfied and constantly demanding better customer service for themselves and their poor poor boys.

Its too bad people cant enjoy the journey theyre on, recognize the beauty all around them and what they and their sons are gaining from being there. Id take Scout camp or a Scout meeting any day of the week rather than have to stay out in the mean old nasty world.

Dont get too down Basement it definitely is worth it and you know that. But also dont let it become a burden. Theres a time to move on, be aware enough to recognize when that time comes.

5year keep working to simplify your troop, show them how much easier cozy can be.

Becoming a cozy unit can start with one person!

Come to the midwest then Packsaddle - we seemingly don't have any of these problems at the camps I've been to up here.

In principle, its wrong. But at the end of the day, does it affect your units mission? I dont see how.

If this is a cause you want to take on, then do. I seem to recall the CC having to sign the Quality Unit paperwork, cant remember how that changed with Centennial. I might be a little more upset about someone signing something they shouldnt have, if that was the case.

Quality District/Council status really only benefits the pros and maybe a couple District folk looking for a few more attaboys.

As a COR you have a place to make complaints like this known. In general, it sounds like you are unhappy with the pros in your council anyways so go for it.

Great advice given here throughout. Never FIRE a volunteer, but you must redirect them when things aren't going well. Someone HAS to reign her in, again, great advice in dealing with a couple of the specifics you mentioned. In my experience when called on it either the problem adult improves or they decide to take their ball and go home (addition by subtraction can be a net gain, but let them make the call).

I've been in a very similar situation myself, and I can guarantee you one thing - if "someone" doesn't reign this ASM in she will only get worse. People will vote with their feet (sounds like it's already starting with the CCs). New Webs stop coming over. Other adults start staying away. Scouts may actually transfer out. The problem won't get better as this leader is actually getting empowered because nobody will stop her and she sees things going better since she's stepped up (in the short term it does).

The committee needs to reclaim it's responsibilities and let the ASM stick to being an ASM. This is exactly why there is a line between the committee membership and the troop adult leadership. When the roles start crossing back and forth this kind of stuff happens.

Good luck, but someone needs to step up to the bully.