jtswestark

I am very happy I have so many older active Scouts, many up until they are 18. The last thing they (most teens) want is to be told what clothes they are to wear. I only say unless it's Scouting related or appropriate, leave it at home. I usually find them wearing past summer camp shirts, OA shirts, or the troop class B shirts. Im very happy with that. A broad generalization and somewhat anecdotal, but its been my experience in units like that theres some Mom nagging them to conform behind the scenes. Those boys get sneered at. No thanks, not what I want boys to get from Scouting. Im guessing your boys feel the same.

Sorry - I meant by 'approving' as in approving the Scout to work with a particular counselor. Not the initial approval to get on the District list.

I didn't care who the kid was working with as long as it wasn't a family member, or some other goofy situation. I did that just to keep tabs on what was going on. I also knew many of the MBC personally and could warn that this person was a stickler on this or that, even if they weren't. I took more than my share of butt chewings from counselors for not telling my boys they needed to do this or that. Took me a while to get it!

It was always fun to present that this counselor was this real mean, loud, old bag and in real she was a sweet little librarian. Or look out for his killer pit bull and there was a little yap dog. Hey, have some fun!

Agreed with Barry & OGE. Pick your battles.

I wouldnt let the shirt slide and would never hesitate to bust chops on the shirt (and yes, I was one that would nail a kid for stapling on his rank at a BoR), but I always felt there were bigger fish to fry than getting excited about Scout pants, much less socks or hats.

We had a troop necker that only the young guys really wore, but had a special necker for following through all five years on our summer camp honors. The boys going to their Eagle BOR may not have had their merit badge sash on or up to snuff, but they all made sure to sport the summer camp necker and their OA sash. Thats what was important to them.

Wow, talk about a making a mountain...

I love this kind of drama - thanks for the chuckle this Monday morning!

The CC has already told the District and Council that he plans to take disciplinary action against me.

HA! What are they going to do? Take away your position? Isn't disciplinary action a violation of YP? Oh yea, that doesnt apply to adults. Too bad.

I have been defamed and falsely accused of misconduct and other issues solely related to this.

Relax Francis. Sounds like you have some other issues with this bunch too, might want to do some reflection and mending of fences here if you want to stay involved with them. Otherwise, might be best for you all to part ways.

"and we wonder why they leave..."

The SM certainly does when he doesnt have an adv chair or one that helps with assigning counselors! Is that specifically addressed in the adv guide? It should be, and if it isnt in the committee training it certainly should be as well.

We had an adv chair assign the counselor and Id sign the card, but I would tell them NOT to fill in the Counselors name and address on the card. Let the counselors do that. In addition, things happen the first counselor cant meet with the kid (or a million different reasons the first assigned cant do it) and another needs selected. If he filled in the card with counselors info then he needs to come back and get another card around and around he goes.

We would not keep partials information. But it needs to be a strong discussion not to lose the card or needs to start over. Kid (and parent) cant say he wasnt warned.

Just had a very interesting discussion with another adult leader that was bragging how his SM hasn't missed a meeting or campout in about 15 years. WOW! That's some serious nights! Then it comes to light they meet twice a month and campout 6 months out of the year.

He was shocked when I told him my old troop meets weekly except for on holidays and a brief 4 week hiatus in the summer. Weekend camping 9 months ouf of the year, at least 7 of those two nighters. Plus a full week at summer camp that has never been missed.

SO... it got me wondering which is more of the norm: how many weekends per year do your units camp?(This message has been edited by jtswestark)

Registered 30. 27 are active, top heavy with Star and Lifes. One Eagle to date this year, three others turned in their paperwork, maybe one more after that yet this year. Will be a colorful fall!

Typically hit 75% attendance, which is great considering the enormous amounts of activities these guys take part in - band, football, baseball, academic challenge, honors classes, etc... and we camp 10 months out of the year.

Challenges continue to be recruiting by keeping the borg mega adult led troop up the road from absorbing all the Scouting in the area.

Earl - may I ask what Ohio camp he is going to? Three MBs is the max I feel a Scout should take. Any more than that and he will have no time for anything, and he should be pretty well prepared with as much as possible ahead of time at that.

Pet peeve is Cit in Nat or World being offered at camp... take those at home.

Well said Moose! E92 is correct, but the reality sadly doesn't fall in line. I brought it up here long ago a fear about someday someone at an EBOR pulling a card from a midnight Eagle candidate and determining the counselor was never registered but everyone laughed it off as *never* could happen. I hope they are right.

Technology presents many more opportunities to improve these systems, but there's so many broken parts along the way we keep patching and re-patching and in the meantime the boys learn more about adult bureaucracies. Sad, like I said, many lost opportunities.

I always wore a class B under my ODL shirt and would dump the Class A as soon as possible. Last night at Commish's meeting, no class B and stayed very comfortable in a stuffy basement meeting room.

It just keeps getting better... Fantastic job National! Nice to see you were listening.

Anyone notice the flyer link for the new shirt is no longer good? The short sleeve shirt is now on the scoutstuff.org and *golly* - it costs the same as the centennial nylon. Size availalbility looks a little light, but they had plenty at the Scout Shop!(This message has been edited by jtswestark)

I think this is one of the major problems with summer camps today, they are all geared up for merit badges and offer very little open time for scouts to just try something new out.

Thats a shame. But the CD will do whatever it takes to get more troops registered, and if the troops want more merit badges then hell respond accordingly.

In my camp we had merit badges all morning with only a couple in the afternoon. The afternoon was for open program time with different promotions for events going on at each area. Our boys knocked off a couple merit badges and still had time for some fun; there was no time for sitting around in camp. I find it interesting that with all the talk I hear from other folks about MBs being the focus, at our camp it blatantly isnt the focus and we run 7 periods, ranging from 300-500 attendance. Hmmm.

>> An adult would handle the presentation of awards and rank with the assistance of the SPL.

Ive always looked at the blue cards as a lost opportunity. Youd think the District would want them to get metrics on their counselors: How many are active, which ones are doing the most, watch for counselors spread too thin, ones not doing any, are they current or needing YP training... If nothing else to verify that the Scouts are using currently registered counselors. At least you could recognize them for their hard work and years of registration! So many possibilities...

Who is this guy, Mr. Scoutmaster?

Oh, hes from the ski day we went to on our trip to New York.

What a great idea! Would you be willing to give a presentation at Roundtable about how you did this trip?

I was always fearful that anyone could sign the card, and the Scoutmaster may or may not know the person is registered as a MBC. I knew of some cases where counselors were no longer registered but they kept on signing and the SM never knew it, or just neglected to find out.

Fair enough, E92; but conversely, one of my routines during my road warrior days was to map out Scout shops everywhere I went to pick up local CSPs and flaps if I could get them. I guess I hit at least 50 of them. I would agree that many staffers are familiar with Scouting, but easily as many were clueless about Scouts or way beyond their ability to do any real Scouting on their own and build personal experiences with new uniforms (ie: age or obese).

Wear in the air conditioned office may get daily wear, but isnt going to be the same as in the field under all kinds of weather conditions by a rough and tumble 12 year old or active leader. Maybe other councils have store employees working at camp, Ive not experienced that. I do know they are a central point for feedback and quality problems, but also know their bias is to sell. The local store manager at my council was a great help in many ways over many years and actually became a friend, but the guy never saw a Scouting event in person. YMMV.

Its wonderful as advertised! Both pockets have inside buttons with small velco tabs on each end of the flaps, the BSA is secured better to the shirt, the US flag is back to the old ODL style, the smokes pocket is gone, the back IS vented, tails are longer, the material is very comfortable I cant wait to wear it to my first commishs meeting this week.

AFA the lady concerns the rear vent is covered, dont know why bra straps would be showing? And even if a peek of a strap should sneak out, is this something that really concerns anyone? Why? The venting will be greatly welcomed in the heat and might just make this shirt useable for more than the ODL is for ceremonial and meetings. Not really concerned about what some shelf stackers think about it, I want to know what an active BOY thinks about it and if it helps one smidgen to increase wear by the BOYS, then it's a great step forward. Wow, lets keep focus here, shall we?

The material is much more comfortable than most shirts I own and will be way cooler in the heat. Yeah, the cost is a little higher, but this is the first shirt Ive bought in about 10 years, so Im very impressed with the difference with what I had been putting up with and have absolutely no qualms about an extra ten bucks or so. Oh and I machined washed it last night. Came out daggone near dry already. Did I say I love it yet?

Sheeze, some people are just never going to be happy, I guess

Bought the new shirt this eve... the better half is sewing on patches right now: LOVE IT! So glad I didn't buy a new one until this point... this is a shirt that can be worn in the field. Well done!

Papadaddy and Lisabob nail it! I can see your appreciation for this Leader that sets up these classes, but Scouting shouldnt be about classes. While they may be exposing him to some great experiences, limit how many he takes part in or you will rob him of the experiences mentioned. Rushing and only doing the minimum is not a way to earn a badge. Another problem with many of these programs is they look for the easiest options of each merit badge and chug through it. The boy may actually want to do a different requirement than is permitted in the class and hes missing out on his own personal exploration of the merit badge topic. I personally feel a goal of earning every merit badge and early Eagle is misguided to the aims and methods of Scouting, and you are seeing the exact reasons why. Trust your gut, good intentions arent always for the best and those boys may be earning them on paper, they're really getting short changed, IMHO. (thus the disparaging term 'paper Eagle')

About meetings - Why do you think your son doesnt enjoy meetings? This sounds like a classroom Scout troop, do they get out at all? Id encourage you to find a troop that has a strong(er) outdoor program than this one, either formally (planned programs) or informally (pick-up football games). Boys spend enough time sitting and listening to adults babble on in school; dont let Scouting become more of that.

Those bronze loop things were Skill Awards that slid onto your Scout belt (Cubs use something similar to them now). I was a new Scout that earned them, I think it was geared to get us ready for merit badges. Some were specifically required for specific ranks, and a few were electives. We still have essentially the same requirements today but they are spread out over the T-1-2 ranks. I think the system today is simpler than messing with them, it was confusing to new Scouts what we had to do.

E youve been active on this forum long enough to have read much about this topic, and Im a little surprised to read it hasnt changed your perspective. When I started off as SM I knew my unit needed more boy leadership. It was easy to conduct during those days as all I had to do was tell them what to do all the time. But then I recognized I was micro-managing everything, including how the committee was trying to function... and it was wearing me out! But each year I backed off a lttle more and more. Kept upsetting the apple cart. Butted heads with many well intended adults that thought I was going too far and causing all kinds of emotional harm to those utes.

You know the old saying: 'Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions'; I had one ASM that would proudly add his own sentence: "And a bad experience makes for former Scouts." That was the rationale to keep the safety net in place. It didnt fly and eventually he left the Troop.

I didnt care as the proof was in the pudding: the SM job was actually getting easier, our retention and recruiting got easier and numbers grew, our program got better and more active each year, our next Eagle was stronger than the prior, and more quality adults started showing up seeing what a wonderful thing we had. When I handed it off it was a smooth transition. All I had to do was tell my successor Dont let the adults mess it up.

You do whatever you wish, but I cant reiterate enough what the old timers told me youve just got to try it. And they were right. Thats the real paycheck as far as Im concerned.

Thats a wonderful point Avid, I remember those days too and thought the whole thing was silly. The iron-ons started peeling off after washing it was hysterical. We just tried to keep the shirt together to get through the year!

Ive seen this happen in every activity Ive been involved in soccer, baseball, you name it. Theres always a group of parents pushing to start earlier and earlier. The orange Ts werent enough, they wanted full uniforms. They wanted it more like Cubs so they got more awards. Simplicity be forgotten, next thing you knew it, full blown Cub Scouting started a year younger. And now well add another year? When does toddler-Scouts start?

Youre not going to win that battle, basement. Parents that dont want to be involved wont be. In fact, this should make people happy that love to rail on about Baby Sitters of America.

Wow, Bluejacket - what in the heck are you doing? Get out of this, get as far away as you can as fast as you can! Your initial question was a good one that merits discussion for the benefit of the forum. But adding on the rest of the story and now reading your perspective we should all be truly alarmed at what youre doing here

We are not the ones to keep an eye on kids or decide which kids need Scouting we are volunteers presenting a simple program to kids, not prepared to get into heavy stuff like this. Stop this now, pass on your concerns to the SE about child abuse and get the heck out of the way (hes very possibly doping his own kids!?). Theres much larger issues going on here that are waaaaay beyond the scope of what we do in Scouting. There is no freaking way you should be even encouraging this guy to become a leader at this point many CORs rely on the recommendations and input from existing leaders about new ones; your name attached to this is going to give the impression that you approve of him. Please - Run away!

This is what I love about these forums. Some kid posts a question of a situation he experienced and we try and psychoanalyze the whole reasoning and go off about how hes being oppressed (DENNIS: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! HELP! HELP! I'm being repressed! ARTHUR: Bloody peasant!). All we know is what he told us and off we go surmising that the BOR is out of hand and we need more youth involved and how the world is all screwed up since weve strayed from the word.

Arent we forgetting there are two sides to every story? Maybe this patch was the final straw of this kids Scout spirit, or maybe he was doomed from the start and this was just one more reason pointed out. Maybe this was one of a laundry list of aspects the troop was not happy with him as a Star Scout wanting to be a Life Scout. Set the standard and hold it: we have a responsibility as adults to maintain this program as was done for us. Can any of you that were Scouts as kids recall getting away with a rank patch that just fell off in a BOR? We wont accept Eagle Mills but are piling on about BORs putting up unnecessary barriers. Those of you that love turning this stuff into evangelical flames against the great mislead, Ill take this lesson over many things we try to get across in Scouting! How many times in life is he going to be sat down in front of a group of close minded, stodgy, grumpy adults that are going to determine if he gets that scholarship, gets that degree, gets that job or promotion, or He who runs the board makes the rules. So whether or not Calvin is a real kid, this is for all those other kids and adults that dont get it: Learn your lesson now Calvin or youre going to be fighting up hill the rest of your life. Is that really how you want it to go?

I had a very similar scenario with a Life Scout I refused to sign off on Scout Spirit for Eagle. My final straw was how during the last month or so hed come running in 30 second before each meeting with his shirt balled up in his hand. Within 30 seconds of closing hed have it balled up again running his way out the door, foregoing any of the activities and duties before and after meetings. I wasn't buying that as acceptable Scout Spirit and no BOR should either. But what does he tell Dad when he gets home that night? He turned me down for Eagle because I dont wear my shirt enough. And off we go to the races

Tread carefully, thats how. You have to have a pretty good relationship with a parent before broaching that topic. When you think youre there, bring up the point when you have time to talk and go slowly and gently. Be ready to back off if you get pushback or adjust tact. Some dont want to hear it and you arent going to convince them otherwise. Those are the ones you just have to let go as long as it isnt too blatant that Mom is doing/pushing too much. But it wont get better as he goes and if it doesnt take care of itself you need to finally put your foot down. In fact, some parents get empowered as it goes and they continue to push harder and harder seeing the light at the end of their tunnel.

I lost more than one Star/Life Scout to area troops because I wasnt going to let it go any further.

At my old camp it was an art, and inspection was a major battle. Winners get to do flags at retreat. Consistency from the commissioners was always a problem and one minute speck of littler in a campsite would be all it takes to knock your unit from perfect to 3rd. Unfortunately, its the stinking adults that get involved and start telling the boys what to do and even doing it for them. Some of these guys would drag their scouts out of the bunk an hour before reveille to get started on cleaning up the camp. Gotta love adults.

Agree with Seattle, not impressed. Nothing against your mother, but Its really disingenuous to talk anyone out of accomplishing anything because of perceived or real responsibility that may come from it. You dont have to do anything, regardless of the certification or otherwise. This eerily sounds like an argument I hear frequently over sheepskins. Sad.