jtswestark

I can think of a million reasons your SM may be doing this without running it past anyone else (not that that's the best way to handle it); but it sounds like you all really havent talked enough about this and now just want to do a roundabout instead. Wouldnt a sit down as was suggested be more constructive versus broad siding him with some new form? If for no other reason than to let him know the troop and individuals shouldn't be funding his buddies weekend adventures.

Jack

Tractor hayrides to shuttle around may help?

Weve had the discussion concerning doing a service project a few times over the years as well. We do a LOT of service to our camps and communities through the year, too many to list. So this is something we just want to have as fun. I hate to hear the grumblings about slave labor, so not only is it a break from that, its also a reward for all theyve given over the spring/summer/fall. We have our Vigil Honor selections weekly at camp and Vigil dinner reunion with ceremonies afterwards on a Saturday before this. So while its kind of a thanks and wrap up to the summer events, we also get our new leadership off and running with some planning sessions after the elections are over. Weve offered Brotherhood ceremony before, but after offering it at ordeals and weekly during camp, there arent too many takers. So the focus is really Lodge Elections. I would like to see more training added, in addition to some of the things Eagle92 has mentioned, that may help us draw better.

Jack

Part of the problem Ive seen is when the Pack wants to have a big sendoff and AoL recognition / graduation with all kinds of nostalgia, slide shows, etc from the past 5 years and doesnt plan any of those until Jan, Feb or even Mar. That can easily mean 2 to 6 months of down time since wrapping up the AoL requirements. So while we can have them come to our troop meetings, I really cant have them 'officially' get anything started until they are officially in the Troop. Looks great to the Pack Committee when they are planning things in the fall, but works out terribly for trying to retain the Webs right into the Troop on the crest of the excitement wave.

Each year I try and find a way around this. Sometimes the DL are very ready, too, but the Pack Committee won't let it go ahead of schedule. Meanwhile, they start finding other interests with their time and going in different directions. Frustrating on our side as well. I am amazed how often I hear 'we just thought the AoL was the end of Scouts.'

Jack

Interesting concept... with recent talk about requiring trained adult leaders in many councils (ours too), might be a great day to offer some of the Fast Start/YP/Essentials/Specific/Outdoor. What a fantastic way to offer some training to folks already there that most probably will be involved in BS in some way after crossover. And gives the adults something to do away from their dens.

I apparently am returning chair of an event in our lodge and am considering setting these up for our next year's event.

Jack

ha ha! Fantastic, great stuff - thanks!

It says 'Your troop must attend', would that mean one person from the troop in attendance or some other measure? We don't attend OA functions as a troop, they're not troop functions.

This sounds like another urban legend to me.

We had our fellowship last weekend, I just love them. Unfortunately by this time of the year, to keep the home world 'content', I usually just go down in time for the lodge elections on Saturday afternoon. At least in our lodge (Sippo-O #377) we have no ceremonies, no work projects, just games and fun in fellowship. It is a great weekend of fun, and of course plenty of patch trading and sharing of past stories and history for both youth and adults. It's great to see an old familiar face pop in for a visit. Unfortunately, this year ours coincided with homecoming of many schools, so our attendance wasn't where it should be. Our re-elected Chief is now ready to take on another great year! This is where the agressive plans and goals of the upcoming year can be tossed around and discussed, and re-evaluation of the past year's successes and failures. It is always invigorating to see a fresh start begin. Enjoy!

GA I will echo Stosh here. But either way you cant do it on your own. If you start from scratch, you will be taking on the same manning issues you may be struggling with now. Or conversely it may be easier: people may be now staying away due to the existing guards way of doing things. We had a controversial ASM go start his own unit and suddenly I had parents coming out of the woodwork to pitch in.

When I came back to Scouts it was in the troop of my childhood and going elsewhere was not an option, as far as I was concerned. But my committee gave me complete control over everything I should have and I had the great support and counsel of the outgoing very respected and very experienced, long time SM. WOW did I make mistakes, but luckily my committee stuck with me through it all.

A transition can take time when existing youth and parents are used to doing things in a particular way. So you either decide to stick with it and work them through it or give up. I determined I would outlast them, tried to communicate with them as much as I could to head off misunderstandings. Some I lost: lost to Scouts completely or to other Troops. Others stepped up becoming the leaders we needed and their names are on our Eagle role. Either way was fine as it was their choice. This was the new program now so join us or well do it around you. A young SPL can upset the older guys, but it can also get their attention quickly. Also, at least in our area, we always have changes: people coming and going, new leaders and youth maturing into their leadership commitments through crossover, transfers, relocations, etc all contribute to changing the face of the troop almost annually, so it isnt as difficult to work in new ideas as it may seem. Determined and consistent patience can pay off.

Stick it out a little longer. If you look back on where things were when you first started, I bet you'll see you've already made a positive difference.

JTS

Ahhh... I would think bagpipes would be a bit wieldy for most campouts? I can't believe they are very cheap, I can just imagine them getting damaged on a typical campout! ouch!

Stosh - your Scouts 'fight by the bugle and skirmish by the bugle'? What an interesting unit you must have.

JTS

heh, what is a piper? I googled it but nothing came up. What kind of music is there for it? that sounds interesting!

From what I recall, it was probably my first campout as a young Scout but something I still remember with great fondness. It was a simple event that the new SM hosted after a skit filled campfire, a quiet but fun event that slowed things down as we wound down for the night. He put out two chairs side by side, one for him and the other was empty. He would call us up one by one to sit next to him, ask us some goofy fun questions, sharing our recent journey from his perspective making it personable for each and fun for all. He would then talk about all we had accomplished, ask what we learned, and would present us with the rank or MBs we earned. No parents, no mothers pins, no cookies or cake, no big hoopla. Now at times like that our troop wasnt very boy lead, as our new SM was a real charismatic guy that liked to have things revolve around him. He didnt last long, but those events always stuck with me and others.

But anyways, I thought about doing something like this in a way that still allows our SPL to run it, but also keep the intimacy and calm fun. Will be interesting to see how a youth will do. I think I will suggest this kind of thing and see what he comes up with. I know hell step up for it.

My point for asking others is to maybe share what they have done, program ideas, what worked great, what didnt do so well is that clearer?

Jack

Your troop must attend 50% of the Chapter meetings/Lodge or National OA functions so that you can have an adult nominated in 200_.

What? Each troop can nominate to the Lodge at least one adult leader per year, presuming there is at least one eligible youth. Period.

None of the scouts that are OA have done in this troop. They believe that it is a right to be in OA, not an honor or priviledge.

Have done what in this troop? Are there any active leaders in your troop promoting the honor of being elected? By declining to allow a Scouts name to show on the ballot is a way to head off this kind of attitude.

There are 6 scouts that are OA and only once or twice have they even attended any OA function

Troops that promote OA events and have leaders that are regularly involved in the OA tend to have youth that are regularly involved in the OA.

and she seems to think that I am keeping her out of OA.

It is up to the Troop Committee, not me that makes the decision to nominate... I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Sounds like your troop meetings must be a blast. This is 3 year old issue is still dragging on?

(This message has been edited by jtswestark)

That's very helpful.

When I was a kid, I specifically remember our SM holding Courts of Honor at campouts at least once a year or so. Since Ive returned, we've always done the formal quarterly in the Church Sanctuary and food afterwards ceremony. Sometimes in the fall we've done a corn roast/pot luck with it, but that's as out of norm as we've gotten. I'm thinking this fall or winter about holding one on a Saturday night at a campout campfire. We have 27 active youth with easily 10 rank advancements per quarter (yes, we do immediate recognition after BOR).

So my question for you all is there any troops that still doing this? If so, please provide details and how have they gone.

Jack

Very well said Doc, Im sorry to see you go. You hit it right on the head. I don't post much here but lurk a lot to learn what I can to make my troop function better. Unfortunately, it takes a great effort to skim though the unnecessary crap to weed out the good things posted here. They are there, but very hidden. A lot of the self-anointed NO-it-alls (intentionally misspelled) seem to have plenty of time to keep posting here. I wonder when the last time much or any of their so-called knowledge was put to real use with real Scouts on a real campout or at a real meeting. Its a shame that offering suggestions and ideas to help others gets shot down by others so quickly and viciously.

Those that continue to post immature and cheap shots through anonymity do no one any good. There are many that here that obviously are ashamed of what they post, otherwise they wouldn't be hiding behind it. It's a shame some of you continue to do so, some even have been at it for many years. I'm saddened to see so called Scouters behaving like this.

Jack Smith,

Eagle Scout, Vigil Honor, OA Advisor, Westark District Gadfly

Scoutmaster for Troop 935

www.Troop935.com

Buckeye Council, Ohio

What I don't like is that the bugler is a leadership position. While I love having one, inevitably he forgets to bring it to a campout...

I wish they would take that one off the POR list for rank.

International I think both GW & I have tried to explain that while we understand your frustrations, there is only one interpretation of whether your son did his job or not that matters, and that is the SMs. If he doesnt feel your son did it, hes not going to sign off. Its as simple as that, right or wrong from your perspective. So to answer your initial question, if you dont agree with that then you need to go to your advancement chair to discuss, and then maybe your committee chair. But I dont think anyone on this or any other board is going to recommend that right off the bat. What we are going to recommend is that a face to face (not email, not phone, not with an ASM) conversation between your son and his SM be held to discuss the expectations of the position and why the SM feels he didnt meet the position needs. It will be the best thing that can be done to get everyone on the same page.

Then your son has three choices: accept whatever he tells him, appeal to the committee, or leave and if he appeals to the committee, in some troops you are already heading in a direction that leaving may be best for all as there are probably underlying issues in play. You keep mentioning leaving anyway, so there appears to be a predisposition for that to begin with. Plus, you have other areas of Scouting as an influence another troop and even international Scouting that may greatly differ in customs and courtesies to what this troop has. What is done elsewhere may not be done here the burden is on you and your son to operate within those parameters whether you like it or not. However if thats unacceptable, you can either work to change it or leave. It sounds to me like you, his parent, may be too involved in this for your sons benefit, and he needs to be doing these things. Theres not much that can irritate a Scout leader more than a hovering parent doing things for their son, which again, based upon what you have written sounds like may be going on. Please, dont get defensive at these responses: you asked a question and we can only answer based upon what you are telling us. You may not like our answers, but you asked and we are trying to help. There are a lot of minor subtleties in your posts that are warning signs of other issues we are picking up on.

I truly hope you will encourage your son to contact his leader to have a sit down as soon as possible to discuss this situation and that you all keep an open mind to what he has to say.

JTS

Obviously I dont know your details so wont be able to do much here, nor will anyone on an internet forum. I can only go by what you tell us, and it appears there has been some history with this leader/unit already, so maybe ongoing issues shouldnt be a surprise? Maybe theres some baggage on either side? Just offering some things to consider. Fairness is very subjective and not always a good platform to plead your case. When there are misunderstandings with a leader, the best thing to do is ask for a few minutes of his time to sit down and talk about what is going on. Get all the expectations out on the table. Sounds like you all are fired up about it, so try and get to the bottom of it face to face with the leader. Let's not pick a fight with the leader, let's find a solution.

From the SM point of view, I also know that when a troop has a quartermaster that is not present at campouts, it can be a huge functional problem that adversely affects the whole unit. Unfortunately many Scouts (maybe not yours) like to assume that since they arent going to an event they dont need to do anything to prepare for it. If this were the case, I can understand a leader's frustration with giving a Scout credit, again, for something he didnt do. Regardless, its not fair to the rest of the unit that had to carry the load of a missing QM and those boys definitely see they are maybe being held to a different standard if he gets credit for it. One event, I can understand, but when its multiple times that really makes it difficult to overlook. I learned this the hard way a long time ago that I must make sure I tell them before accepting a POR that if they miss more than one campout they will be replaced. To sustain a properly functioning boy lead troop, theyve got to be there. If theyre playing sports or band or whatever, then they should pass on that leadership term and try again later when they will be able to fully perform the job they want to take on.

I can understand the frustration of at the end of the term the Scout suddenly hears he wasnt doing the job. When nobody made any corrective actions along the way the Scout assumes no news is good news and anticipates a signature at the end of his expected term. That isnt correct either. Sounds to me that there needs to be some better communication on both sides to keep expectations clear.

I dont recognize the 2/3 is reference, it doesnt ring any bells.

Good luck!

JTS

As a Scoutmaster, I know my troop admittedly doesn't always do as well as we should when guiding Scouts through their leadership term. When faced with this kind of situation I like to ask the young man, if he thinks it's right for him to take credit for a POR that he didn't do anything for - six months of credit for one week or so of work? If it's not sinking in yet, I ask again, 'did you do your best?' Let the Scout make the call. Most Scouts are willing to come up with something to talk about when that registers.

Is another few months that big of an issue when the difference is to 'give' versus 'earn' an award? Don't overlook the bigger lesson that your son can learn here. Be patient and help improve the system in your troop.

Jack

Congrats on your new growth! That is a sign that parents have faith that you can successfully guide the Scouting program for their sons. Heres what Id do, a little different perspective:

Name your life Scout as SPL, the one that offered to be TG as PL, make one of the remaining two most mature guys ASPL /QM, and the other as the APL; that puts you back to 14 new in the patrol, forget about the possible next two for now. Therell be a couple you wont see much right away due to football/soccer. In about a month, you will lose about three to basketball/swimming/hockey/chess club/academic challenge. Thatll knock you back down to 10/12. Youll lose another one over the winter due to being too busy. Youll lose another one to two through early campouts when they realize this isnt Webelos camping and M&D arent there to wipe their nose anymore/weekly meetings are too much/monthly campouts are too much. If you pick up these extra two, or maybe one or two come and go in between other activities, it may be a wash. My point is you will lose at least a quarter of these guys by February, guaranteed (at least not active). I would wait until this spring, after you start to see the natural leaders bubble up and who is borderline on this Scout stuff. If, at that time, you feel you can sustain two patrols I would then split them up. And by sustaining, I mean having being able to count on a minimum of 4 Scouts in a patrol at any given campout. If you set up two now, you will lose more because you will overload them with all this before they are ready. Setting up a new 11 year old as grubmaster in a new patrol with no experienced PL to guide him is a recipe for disaster at a campout (he will get frustrated, then M&D take over, they get frustrated, and you may lose the kid/family over it). The only way around that leadership void is to dump all kinds of adult intervention and that needs to be kept to a minimum so your older guys can develop.

Now, your SPL will be mainly just a figure head, as he will only have one patrol, but he can run your PLC to make sure the meeting and campout programs support the new guys and lighten the load a little on a PL that will suddenly have 12 new Scouts to manage, no easy job. This will be a huge growth period for the PL and SPL, and the ASPL / QM can watch and learn so hell be ready next term to move into one of the two PL jobs. Your fourth older scout will hopefully learn by osmosis and observation and see how much fun leadership can be.

Make these four a team and it can work. But you have GOT to keep the parents out of it and YOU need to be there as much as possible guide and support them. Have your other Scouting parents ready as resources to teach some skills as determined by your PLC. Your PLC will be a little light in some areas and need a break here and there to work on their own advancement; but put a lot of it on their shoulders, keep their spirits up and I think they will be fine. Theyve had the training they need, let them apply it. Within a year, you could have two kick butt patrols with some great young leaders if you nurture them along now and they dont get burned out or overloaded.

JTS

(This message has been edited by jtswestark)

Stosh - good points, but I would suggest moderation and one step at a time; he's bringing them some very fundamental changes. They need to get in place the fundamentals and some small victories to show the method works to get buy in (which he's starting to get). If he moves too fast and upsets their apple cart too much things can go bad very quickly (been there).

Heya Eric! Glad to be here, been reading around for a couple months but actually posting is much more fun than I expected. You need to send us some more provisional guys we love the interaction! In about the past 8 years of summer camps I can recall, weve brought on provisional/SPL2B guys each year and everyone has been a positive experience for our troop. Some I still run into every now and then. Ill email you about the Camporall, wed love to have your guys join us.

Jack Smith

We use an approx. 20x30 grommetted heavy tarp from Harbor Freight (about $40?); two 10 2x4 with a bolted sleeve to connect the two end to end for the ridge, and two 14 with rebar pins driven in the end to go through the tarp & drilled hole in the ridge pole (very similar to wall tents used at most camps, just larger scale). About five 8 conduit lengths with spike nails & washers through the tarp grommet hold up each side of the fly. Made rope outriggers and rebar ground stakes to keep it all in place. All parts are easily replaced and readily available at any hardware store. They are a bit of a pain to put up (builds teamwork in the dark on a Friday eve), but are durable as heck and weve used the same ones/parts for years. At summer camp we use three of them, weekend camping only one. I would like to get some small pop ups for each patrol, because in any inclement weather everyone hoards under the one fly.

Once a year or so we go visit a local bowling alley to pick up some of their old pins they are discarding. They make great stake mallets, they are large and white, sized right to grip around the neck, show up well in the grass and I dont have to keep buying anymore stinking sledge hammers. And the price is right for as many as we want, free

What was lacking was for my son to have the experience of working with someone who is an expert in the field.

I would presume most camps are like ours and this just isnt going to happen. Now, you may find an exceptional naturalist, leatherworker, shooter, or Scoutcrafter, etc but that won't be the norm. Most staffers are 15 to 17 year olds that have just learned the topic during staff week. The instructor may get a crash course on the topic and an outline of what to do each day, but that usually happens in the last couple days of the staff week at the same time theyre trying to get a million other things done like skits, songs, and camp preparation. My sons first year on staff he taught three merit badges he didnt even have himself. Yes, they were typically first year merit badges, and as the summer went along he became very proficient at the topics. By the end of the summer he was as close to an expert that a youth is probably going to get.

Otherwise, why not just let us Scoutmasters be Universal Counselors?

I have seen both sides of that: as a Scoutmaster of a troop in camp and as a Scoutmaster that has two or more of my Scouts working on staff the past couple years. The Scout staffers teaching the MB are learning and growing no different than instructing a skill at a troop meeting to his home troop. From the Scoutmasters point of view, we want our Scouts in the class to get the maximum experience, and we get frustrated over the instructing quality level. From the staffers side, I see boys come back from camp staff having grown incredibly. So I guess Im saying both sides are growing from the camp experience. If you go to Jambo youll see the expert professional adult teaching merit badges, which is an awesome experience - if you are going to Jambo to earn merit badges, that is.

Buffalo think you did fine. You always need to be ready to make adjustments on the fly and while it isnt always textbook you have to make the best of it, which you did. Also you are making a conversion to methods that are unfamiliar to your troop. Nothing wrong with taking some baby steps before you try to run. I was a little surprised to hear about how you handled the COH, but it sounds like it worked out well and gave your outgoing SPL a good experience. Nothing wrong with that. But now you have time to start working with your incoming SPL from the start and prepare him for how you want him to set up future events. By the end of his term, or sooner, hell know what to do without you having to give any direction, or minimal at most. Then his ASPL / other Junior Leaders are watching him and keep the ball rolling. The process perpetuates itself.

As you found its tough to function on a campout as a patrol of only two. What we will do is at our prior meeting when all the permission slips, menu & duty rosters are due, we see who is coming and the SPL will combine patrols as needed to make at least a functioning patrol for the weekend. Allows the grubmaster time to get food for the combined patrol and at least for that weekend they act as one. It doesnt happen that often anymore as weve learned when structuring patrols every term to size them at 7 to 9 Scouts so they can still function if up to four dont go on that campout. We have to know numbers by that time anyways to make sure we have adequate drivers and adult leadership. A little variety in their patrol make up is ok as they get to work with some different guys here and there.

If youre still bouncing around 10 Scouts in the troop, you may just want to operate from here on out as one patrol (without an SPL) until your crossovers bring you enough for a second and maybe third patrol. But if you already have boys assigned in roles, just work it the best you can until crossover.