jtswestark

Yeah, youre right Calico - to a point. I don't have a problem with First Aid, Camping, E Prep, Wild Surv, and some others though. A camp environment is as good as any to teach these with the right program and staffers. I would hear about some monumental battles on the camping committee each year over this. We got stuck with alternating Cit Nation and World each year as a compromise for a long time. They added Communications this year, which really bothered me. I could half buy Personal Fitness a couple years ago, but even that was a stretch. Four required for Star (Camping, Swimming, First Aid, and ...) and three for Life really entices a kid looking to advance.

I dont like it either and would frown upon the boys taking them and really try to talk them out of it to do as you say take some summer campish merit badges. Theres some ways you can twist the kids arm away from those, but largely that only works so much especially when we have tight classes and you may only get into two to begin. Plus when you look over what many of the fourth and fifth year guys already have many and what is offered, you lose much your argument.

Again, only speaking for my own experiences at my past Councils camp, Ive only seen the staff directors sign off on cards who have to be over 18, most are over 21 in fact. Not saying it never has happened, but it is something they were aware of and had a policy in place for over the past 10 years or so.

The teaching staffer (typically are 16 to 18, yes) does keep a checklist of requirements completed which hangs in the Scoutmasters lounge.

My past councils camp always has a list of all pre-reqs for every MB in the leaders guide. If they dont have those pre-req items on Monday at the first class, the counselor excuses them from the class. Some re-reqs can be finagled and done at camp to get back in, but others eliminate them right off the bat. Its crystal clear in the leaders guide what requirements are to be done before hand and how they are to be done. The only ones that get confused over it are the boys that neglect to do it or their leader didnt inform them of the pre-reqs. I lay into the Scouts pretty hard that 'forget' to do their pre-reqs as the class sizes are limited and someone else may have gotten locked out of that class.

On the EPrep MB, most of the work is done at home before camp and documented by the Scout having the SM sign a statement or writeup of what he did and how it went. Photos of the family kit; brings the personal kit with him; and the Scout would need to do a phone tree emergency before we left for camp. I can see a benefit for texting but a large number of our boys don't have phones. One of the better phone tree instruction sheets a boy put best way to contact Joel and then a secondary contact for Joel. If the tree failed they had to try again and it can make them very frustrated!

All councils are supposed to follow the mandatory requirements set out in BSA advancement policies, which include, without exception, individual testing by adults merit badge counselors. No council is entitled to change that.

Ahhh, I get it now. Let me summarize the complaint you've been trying to make through this whole thread, Tahawk you expect there to be an expert adult counselor for every merit badge at Scout Camps.

So does that mean that you arent going to accept anymore signed blue cards from any Scout camp by anyone involved with teaching or testing that is under 18 and not an expert in the area. Because to do otherwise is granting your approval of cheating. Correct?

BP

First of all, threatening to boycott camps will do nothing to cause change. Action will. Actually boycotting camps will do one thing = make them close. Getting involved by participating in making them better, will make them better.

Second of all, Im not a good enough student of history to know what the real intention of summer camp was whenever it started, at Brownsea I presume I thought it was for growth of the boy and patrols. Honestly, I got more out of my patrol and troop events than I ever did MBs. That said, Im not in anyway going to defend the five to ten MBs in one week at any camp. Ive seen kids on very rare occasions take four in my troop and they were very prepared older Scouts who all later regretted taking that many. My guys knew I didnt even like them taking three and only allowed it in very specific conditions. I cant speak for other troops or camps as I dont know what they permit. And I really question any anecdotal story about a Scout earning more than 6 MBs in any given week, maybe it happens, but I fully expect theres more to the story than just that. I dont know what your camp experience is and will not attempt to rebut it, but my experiences arent nearly as loose as you present. The sky is not falling.

The growing camps are or have already added the rappelling, COPE, and pioneering areas and if you havent seen them then you need to maybe look further because theres plenty out there.

(This message has been edited by jtswestark)

Thanks for the kind words, Eric! Those were tough but gratifying days.

Keep looking for alternative ways to get the message out! Nice job as always Brother.

I'll get my dues in soon, before I return for either Ordeal or Vigil. I registered with my new council's lodge ... Very different up here!

In Service,

Jack

I dont understand what you mean by expediency is a value. Theres only so many hours, so many dollars, so many resources to do so much and to some its still not enough. I cant go along with that perspective. Boys are constantly growing through the process every year, every week, as ugly as it may be.

If you want perfection, youre not going to find it. Dont like it, dont participate. Roll your own camp, many units do that every year. Or keep looking for that perfect camp that is going to meet every expectation you want met. Good luck.

Well, the trend seems to be councils are shutting down their camps so this may resolve your complaints anyhow.

Ok BP and others, how do you do it? Ranting and raving at the council and program director will only get you so far. Then what? Because thats exactly what theyll ask you

Let me start about November of a typical year. The Camp and Program directors are identified for the following summer camp. These guys are usually college students, maybe theyre pausing after college to start their professional careers, maybe theyre on leave from the military, or even teachers (less and less of those anymore). They usually start right away identifying their directors and building the theme and program overview. They interview. And interview some more. Many weekends, many evenings. About January/February they start advertising for general staff members. And interview many more. Recruiting guys they know, former staffers, former CITs. Slowly they start creating the staff, made up of many college and high school students. Many are unsure until the last minute if they can work. Many arent happy over their pay. Many are already busy kids with school and activities pulling them in many directions giving them serious grief about working at a Scout Camp and "sacrificing their college scholarship in their sport" or instead of "making real money flipping burgers." At this point they may have an idea where they are going to work, but not for certain yet.

In my past council area schools end in early June. Usually theres a week off, then Ordeal to set up much of the tents and camp. Then the staff week starts that Sunday and they have a week to get camp all set up - all their programs, skits, final assignments, training, and so forth all done. Oh yeah also fit in that schedule they have to become EXPERTS in the merit badge they have to teach that they may not even have themselves. Maybe, just maybe, some old timer shows up to teach them the merit badge he is to teach. Maybe he has once or twice to go through the requirements he is expected to become an instant expert. In a few short days he'll be in front of bunch of eager Scouts begging for his attention. Maybe he can do all this before the old timer needs to head home.

I cant speak for other camps, as Ive only ever gone to my home councils camp. But Ive watched and participated pretty intimately how ours goes for many years, close friends to some of the PD & CD and camp staff alumni. Ive had my own son and many from my troop, jamboree, and lodge work on staff. Of all ages. My sons first year on staff he was 15 and he taught Basketry MB, one he didnt have. He did a great job on it and I heard much feedback of how well he handled it through the summer.

Are you going to get good MB counselors at camp? Of course, and you are also going to get some less than that. There was a specific incident one year that caused most of a very popular program area staff to be fired mid week. Think that didnt have a significant impact on everyone in camp the next morning with significant shuffling to cover the shortages? We have an annual exodus from staff for the last couple weeks for bandcamp. Staff members get burned out, tired, quit, and get fired. They are up many evenings reviewing the events of the day, practicing skits and songs, participating in silent fire & campwide emergency drills, being drafted to help out in the kitchen or water front. It is hot and sunny during the day, and they get little sleep at night. Emotions are short. Things happen, things go wrong. They are youth. They are growing, too. Of course that doesnt mean you can overlook lacking quality of merit badges - you make adjustments and hope for the best.

Im not sure what the answer is either. Other than I like to pitch in to help make better what I can. You (we) can make a difference offer to help! Ive helped at the water front myself just as a gopher so the counselor could focus on the class. Ive seen many people help out in many program areas to assist the counselor and lighten the load a bit. Maybe you all have, I dont know, but maybe instead of us looking at summer camp as consumers and demanding our Scouts get their moneys worth of quality merit badges, maybe we find a way to pitch in to make it better for our own Scouts and others along the way.

But I had a vested interest in that camp, it was my home camp. Those of you that travel each year looking for variety and best bang for your buck are just there one time and you make your opinions based upon that one week, maybe even just a few minute snap shot of a class. I get that. I guess I look at it over the long haul and how much my guys have benefitted overall from our program, the good and the bad. I still think the good outweighs the bad where we go and thats why we continue to go back.

(This message has been edited by jtswestark)

I think you missed the point here.

Yes, you are right, I did miss it.

I guess 'I' was still pissed about the OP and it clouded my reading.

Apologies to Basement.

Its not easy. Its not fair. But you have to balance it by not letting him always be your slave labor. As you did, give him some special rewards so he doesnt grow to resent it.

It would be tough on mine when he was tired, bored and ready to go home after meetings and Im still there a half an hour or even hour talking to committee members, ASMs, parents waiting for all to leave so I could lock up and we could get back for his bedtime. I recognized that I had to ask other adults to alternate with me so I could leave after closing and get him home. He was so glad when the day arrived that he could drive on his own to meetings so he could leave when he was ready. I was saddened as I valued that time together in the car.

Recognize that you need support. You cant do it all. Recruit some of these other boys and adults to help clean the gear. Dont take it all on yourself or you and your family will pay for it eventually. Trust me on this.

my first exposure to this young man was several years ago

If you can find an a kid that either became or already was an Eagle that has never said or done anything that someone wouldnt find unacceptable at one time or another then you definitely have a unique brand of kids.

Ive had Scouts come to my unit that needed a fresh start. I wouldnt want to hear about the baggage from his prior leaders and their biases. We adults make mistakes. Boys make mistakes. Part of growing up is recognizing that and improving ourselves. Have you seen behavior from this Eagle recently to verify he hasnt grown? Instead you are frozen in time, getting all pissed off about something he did several years ago to the point you personally ridicule his person on a public forum.

Maybe you should do some reflecting on yourself: Let go of your grudges and be the larger person here.

A positive point of an Eagle mill the Troop leadership would have made sure he was in uniform.

Oh come on how are you going to do that? If this was a kid in your unit how are you going to maintain that kind of control? Who knows how this happened - there could be a million reasons this happened when it did and his uniform may not have been readily available.

It is so easy to sit up on high and point the finger at another Eagle Mill.

I would request the moderators remove this thread.(This message has been edited by jtswestark)

I was at the 81 as a ASPL and the 05 as an ASM. I was impressed of course with all the military support. As a vet, its always neat to see these things. What I didnt care for was a little of the crowd control mentality that I saw from a few soldiers, and very few at that. It was a little too abrasive at times where it didnt seem needed to me; but I know I wasnt in their shoes so I give them the benefit of the doubt. Most military present were very friendly and open. It was cool to see many were wearing the rank they earned themselves in Scouts, some would track down their home councils units for a visit.

But this concerns me as well, whenever you have this mass of people, both Scouts and non-Scouts meandering around a relatively small area there needs to be order. Who is going to do that? I know theres a huge push at SummitCorps for OA members to help out at 2013, I really hope they dont expect Arrowmen to take on that role. Will security rental cops be brought in? Will local police forces be invited? Or military?

One afternoon in 05 some fellow leaders and I stopped to eat our box lunches in a large open area. As we finished eating, we all noticed about the same time loads of wrappers from the packaged food littering the ground. Without saying a word, we all started picking up handfuls of the garbage as we walked past dozens of Scouts watching as they ate their own meals. Before we knew it we had a growing group behind us doing the same. In no time the large grassy area was almost completely clean, a stark difference from when we arrived. Little things like that stick with me more than the huge orchestrated events.

During the death march in 05 all of the medical services I saw were Scouters or civilians, I dont recall seeing many or even any military involvement in my area during that fiasco (maybe they were behind the scenes more). I thought the staffers dealt with the ridiculous situation very effectively considering the hand we were all dealt with on that boiler afternoon.

I also hope they get back to some basics. We spent a huge percentage of time planning daggone hats, t-shirts, and patches than we did much else it seemed a real waste of efforts (and Im a patch guy). Even the gateways became a distraction and sucked up much of the time on the first and last day. No backpacks anymore just totes. Everything hauled in by delivery trucks and travel busses. Meals we were to cook were bags of food to be boiled. Overall, it was a great event and I dont like to complain, but I really had to wonder what my Uncle wouldve thought that attended the 53 jambo, heck it didnt remind me too much of the 81 event.

But this seems fascinating to me what an opportunity BSA has here a true clean sheet of paper to set things up (dare I say it) the way they want. So far, I really like what Im hearing. I still dont get it how BSA can continue to get away with charging people to work on staff. It will be interesting to see if they can entice those of us from the not-retired generation to take leaves or vacations in addition to PAY for the privilege of working on staff. Id have a hard time selling that one to my better half.

ugh... sewing, cutting, altering neckerchiefs just kills us collectors. Please think twice before doing that.

I know they are Cub Scout neckers in this discussion, but Boy Scout neckers can become heirlooms and very valuable themselves.

Well said SR!

When I returned to the lodge and became chapter advisor there was definitely a negative light on the OA in our District. One unit at a time, one event at a time, one Scoutmaster at a time, we had to work on re-establishing the lodge in the District as a positive part of it. It wasnt easy. We rounded up Arrowmen to help out with popcorn distribution, staffing the Klondike, and so forth to increase visibility in the District that we were doing good things and not playing games of the past. We spent a lot of time polishing the election teams presentation at units during the election night. We would harp on the summer camp director to get updated materials so we could promote local camping; show videos from NOAC, Jamboree, then later ArrowCorps. Struggled for literature concerning ALTC and Conclaves. It became fun for the guys as they got to show off their technical prowess with computers and sound.

But it was an uphill battle as we had to work hard to change attitudes, show we were listening, show we were trying to do better. And yes, I even invited out SMs on Ordeal Weekends to watch what we do and how an actual Ordeal progresses. At times a couple of us felt like we were selling our souls with promises we hoped would come through.

We had a prior lodge advisor that was a real hardliner on adult nominations and only accepted a few each year. What he didnt realize was that over time he was cutting his nose off. We had OA candidates and members that couldnt get to events as there were no adults from their units driving. To ask a parent to drive an hour one way to drop off Johhny on a Friday night, then turn around and go home was a tall order for any adult. And then repeat it again on Sunday morning to pick them up. We worked on carpools to lighten that load. At one point I had about 10 young Arrowmen in my troop alone and I was the only adult member, so getting many of them to events was almost impossible. So I pleaded with each unit to submit adult nominations (and was constantly challenged with the constant why? They never approve any of them responses). Then I had to go to the advisor to plead the case for increasing selections. At ordeals we made sure we spent time with the adult clan and bent over backwards after the ceremonies to make them feel welcome and explain how we did things in the lodge. Slowly over time we had more buy in from more leaders, which slowly brought in more new Arrowmen.

It took a long to time to change. But going on 5 years of Quality Lodge now, high participation at many local, regional, and national events, placing and winning ceremonial competitions, etc shows that when a group of adults decide they are going to change the attitudes by changing the reality of what goes on in the lodge, positive things can happen. Its too bad this seems to be a prevailing attitude in the District, but does that mean past practices should prevent a new Scout from being elected and experience the OA? Ive known many Scouts that stuck around only because of the OA.

That Scout deserves for someone to go to bat for him to get his chance at being elected. Hopefully the OP will.

Right on Jeff! Keep this stuff in perspective and have some fun.

Interesting perspectives and comments. How much is rose colored glasses of our childhood; I wonder how well many of us would do as a youth in todays Scouting and society that these kids have to deal with. I was a 14 year old Eagle in 1979, and readily admit I wasnt a strong Eagle. I am glad to say I did stick around for a few more years and learned more about what an Eagle is after I actually earned it Who cant say that they learned more about what an Eagle is as they grew up and faced many of the challenges a young man experiences in his life? Thats what we are truly trying to prepare them for, Id say. The challenges I went through were very different than those of my Eagle father, and were yet again different than what my Eagle son has gone through. We cant compare yesteryear to now, theres too many variables that have changed over time. Considering all that, I think weve done pretty darn good to keep the Eagle award as consistent as we have.

Im a little baffled about the perspectives of the marked man part of the charge. I love that line and do my best to emphasize it! Eagles absolutely are marked men. More and better is expected of us, as it should be. A defining moment for me was during an inebriated night in college when somehow I ended up in the back of a police car with the cop asking me to recite the Scout Law. I was a marked man and realized that night what it really meant.

I also find humorous the comments about Eagle brand. How hypocritical when we complain about lack of marketing and visibility from national not doing anything other than screwing up our Scouting to turn around to complain about selling out to the man.

But is all this really the point? How dare we as leaders try and make the call of what a young man might or might not turn into, whether he deserves the award at 13 or 14 when hes done what was asked of him? I have some real issues with attitudes posted here and on that Trail to Eagle thread of subjective calls on what an Eagle really is. I too have my own perceptions of what I think an Eagle is but in the end it doesnt mean squat. This is what Scouting is now, guys, not what it was back in the day.

edited for typos...(This message has been edited by jtswestark)

I was lucky to grow up in a canoeing troop. Not many made it to Eagle, I was the 5th in about 10 years. Luckily we always had SMs that let the journey be the adventure and advancement just wasn't the goal. I tried to do the same when I was in that role.

I think it takes a special person that can fight that encroachment from pushy parents. It's so easy to cave in, constantly being tested. Some still got by me and eventually had to deal with it. I wouldn't hesitate to point them towards the mega eagle mill unit up the street. Some left, but most didn't and we continue to have a thriving troop today. Never give in!

Back in the day. Summer camps campsite we used annually had about eight open front adirondacks. We would hang two simple kerosene lanterns on either end. Plus one or two for the dining flies and latrine/wash basin. They were great no gas or mantles, simple and easy to clean. They burned all night, gave a dim light where needed just right. The PIA though, was cleaning the soot off the globes each morning. But that was an inspection point for the campsite, so you learned all about kero and these simple lanterns. Kero is easy to learn about, fairly safe for kids to handle, not a bad thing to learn about and a great place to learn it. Kept it in a can stored under the dining fly.

Fast forward 15+ years I return to find they are still using many of the exact same ones from my childhood, even though were now at a new camp and new campsite with BSA wall tents. It was pretty cool to see the unit had maintained the tradition of using the kero lanterns. But now they use bent conduit that is pounded between each pair of tents and about 15 feet forwards of it to clear the fabric. So in our 20 tent campsite, we still had about 12 of these spread around the campsite giving a real nice low glow throughout. I love the view of the campsite from afar with them lit at night and we often get compliments.

But theyre still a real PIA. Getting the boys to clean the globes is still a hassle. The glass globes are now thinner and crack easier. Some have burrs on the edge that can cut your hand if you arent careful. Finding parts was a real chore and I found it was actually cheaper to just buy new ones than try to replace a broken globe, etc (Walmart has a whole lantern for a couple bucks). The kero is still messy to deal with, you get all sooty and smelly.

They're also a great way to keep a homesick kid busy is to invite him for a special task to help me fix some of the broken lanterns. He learns something new, feels better about himself and kept his mind off missing Mommy for a little while. Still use even the same gas can but now store it in or under the trailer for shade. Never had problems with anyone using it for anything they shouldnt have. Many of our guys are OA and are very comfortable with kero.

So this year, we shared our campsite with another unit and I see their SM is using the same lantern around his tent, but his is immaculate! No soot, no dirt whats up with that!? Later that day as hes snickering at me about cleaning some filthy globes from last night, tells me he doesnt use kero and his lantern is years old. Instead he uses citronella oil. Even if it really doesnt help keep away mosquitos, its a heckuva lot cleaner NO SOOT so no cleanup! Just refill the sucker.

As much as I love the nostalgia and controlled exposure to a flammable liquid Im really thinking long and hard about how much I really want to keep using kerosene

Great to read! Love your enthusiasm!

Wonderful to see the OA pull off another great service event. More fodder to show the naysayers how great the OA is.

Question - you said others were saying it wasn't AC5. Was it better or worse in their opinion?

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I always do a bit** list at the end of an event to remember the things that you need to do better next time. Reflect on it a couple times through the year, and definately next spring.

1. Bring 2 swim suits. One for lake and one for pool.

Interesting why?

2. At pickup, parents to 'checkout' with leader for potential discussion regarding summer camp performance.

You really want to do this? The last thing I wanted to do when getting back and unloading was to deal with the parents. I was tired, hot, and cranky, just wanted to get home to my easy chair not deal with a helicopter wanting to know how great Johnny did. If a debriefing is needed, take good notes so you can recall for a later discussion.

3. Bring: a.... m.

Depends on region. Wouldn't bring any drinks, water is fine and a lot less sugar. The rest can go in a troop first aid kit and use as needed. Somethings are good for a Scout to have on their own and they should learn through experience. Ie: Goldbond & mole skin.

4. Hydrate well starting the day before leaving

Yup, nalgenes on their person, three glasses of water each meal; clear and copious.

5. Topographic map of area

Might be a good idea to study up on the area of a new camp before you arrive.

6. Medical forms in 2 weeks in advance for review. No ifs/ands/or buts.

No doubt; two weeks is even pushing it.

7. Talk directly to Dining Hall Director, not Camp Director regarding special diets.

Always. And follow up with a call the week before to remind him and confirm the right person got the information.

8. Have 'shake down' hike before camp to ensure all boys & adults are physically capable to endure the terrain.

2nd Class req #1b 5 mile hike is a good one to do a couple weeks before. Break in and waterproof new boots too.

9. Have Scout leadership establish expectations and communicate to boys before hand.

Critically important to make sure everyone knows what their jobs are for the week - that applies to both adults and youth... no free rides!

11. Practice mosquito net frame assembly

I can only imagine what caused this point to be made!

12. Bring alphabetical list of Scouts

Whenever you think you have enough rosters, print one more.

13. Don't over communicate (Mr Davis)

Control the communications: There's a fine line between overloading and underinforming.

14. Get pre-requisites into the hands of the Scouts sooner.

Right, that should be done at the same time you present the list of MBs they offer at camp.

15. Watermelon or ice cream for 'half way' night?

Planning ahead can make this a great night and don't forget to invite your camp staff!

16. Break down check-in by patrol.

SPL & PL in charge.

17. Roll fuel cost into Camp cost.

Yes, we add on about $10 to each person for campsite needs too.

18. Set up account with trading post for merit badge kits & roll cost of kits into camp.

Ours requires the Scouts to pay at the Trading post by the 2nd day of classes. It is a hassle, but I rather put it on their shoulders.

19. Schedule camp in June to beat 100a weather.

Come north! Although Midwest troops are hitting the same thing right now.

This list could be miles long depending on the camp, traditions, and preferences. Many things I swore by other Troops thought was unneeded at the same camp, and versa visa. Different strokes...(This message has been edited by jtswestark)

Others have pretty well covered my answers to the questions.

But before we start whining about another form, this is one that is greatly needed. Its not an actual form, just a paragraph or two from the SPL candidate to explain why he wants to be SPL with a parent signature on it. There is no right or wrong answer, in fact it usually becomes the outline for his election speech (we use closed ballots). Three reasons we do this -

1.) To get the kid to stop for a minute and consider what and who he is about to commit to.

2.) Make sure the parent knows what hes about to commit himself and his family to just as, if not more important.

3.) Talk about his past performances, where he will need to improve / or not, what will be expected of him by the SM. Clear expectations that a SPL candidate may not realize before hes in the position. He will be tasked for extra meetings, time, phone calls, emails, and duties. If he is unable to do this the Troop suffers. I also try to prepare him for failure and to have in mind a couple other positions he would like to take on in case that happens.

All it takes is to get burned one time by an SPL that doesnt have Mom on board and youve got a mess to deal with. Rather not go there and rather have the parent on board up front. Some parents have talked the boy out of it when they are busy with Band, sports, etc The reason I want that letter is to review these things. I wanted to make sure a candidate that was in season and captain for his HS sport team would have time to do both. He presented a well laid out plan and we went with it. He won and had a successful term. Without clear understanding of what was ahead, what I expected of him, we wouldve had a mess.

Why I dont want consecutive terms we use 6 months terms, typically have three to four patrols and about 30 boys. There are limited number of positions, lots of Scouts needing leadership for advancement, and limited number of years for Scouts to engage in them. A lot of growth occurs at these ages in 6 months. Arguably, 6 months terms may be too short, but I feel its a good time for each to get a good feel of a position and they can move on with that experience. I like pushing boys out of their comfort zone and getting them to try QM if they arent gadget guys, Scribe if they're unorganized, or ASPL/SPL if they are a little shy. Six months isnt too long to suffer through a job they dont really like, but they always, always come out of it for the better. If they have a heavy term in school they can take one off and they aren't out of action for a full year. Not unusual to have an Eagle candidate that has held many positions in the Troop that if he was allowed to stay in one for extended time wouldnt have experienced.

I too found out the guys would have this stuff all planned out long before the elections were even held. Its hilarious to overhear the deal makings going on.

So yes, this is an area our leaders are giving structure and Ill take the criticism for being too involved in these aspects. But we believe that trade off is worth the growth the guys get through each leadership term.

First two points are dealing with very important transitions. Those take time and patience.

Patrols seem a little on the large size - right sized means all boys are engaged and aren't able to sit around without having any roles.

If you arent already, try to work in some more activities on a frequent basis that dont require a campout. During meeting nights meet at the local pool for swim night; local trailhead for a hike and end with some ice cream; ice skating rink for an open skate night; meet at a local gun or archery club for some fun shooting; local climbing club?; meet at an area astronomy club on their meeting night Weekend/day/night events, they dont have to be big planned out events. Have each patrol pick an outing on their own, just get the boys out of the meeting location at least once a month. Boys like doing stuff without too much hoopla involved, so find a way to do some different fun things and they will keep coming back.

Back off the MB Academies and start driving home that that MBs and advancement are up to the boys. Let them set weekend agendas with suggestions so they do have fun.

Sounds like you are on a good track though, stay the course to let the boy lead program develop and before you know it youll be bringing them back.

Youve got plenty of fantastic opportunities in the area. Im from just south of you and have canvassed many of the same areas for our Troop. Just a few off the top of my head

- Hocking Hills State Park in southern Ohio affords a great weekend with great trails and scenery that is remarkable for Ohio. http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/parks/tabid/743/Default.aspx

- Ohiopyle state park in Laurel Highlands, PA. has some whitewater rafting / canoeing /kayaking programs for all ages.

- Put-In-Bay Camporee in September, units camp at Commodore Perry War of 1812 Victory and International Peace Memorial. Camping at the event may only be for Boy Scouts, but you might be able to camp elsewhere and visit during the day. www.Troop360pc.com

- Air Force museum at Wright Patt AFB in Dayton has an IMAX and lots of cool planes, camping on the base and can eat in the mess hall, very inexpensive.

- Skiiing coming up at Boston Mills/Brandywine or resorts a little further out usually have great Scouting rates

- Dearborn Ford Rouge plant (I have a kick butt weekend we did for that one)

- Theres also Erie Maritime Museum,Ft. Pitt, Johnstown PA flood museum, and Shanksville Flight 93 Crash Site as stops along the way to about to anywhere in the PA area

One thing you can do is to call council office and ask if the OA Lodge has put out a recent version of the where to camp guide that will offer many things in the area (some lodges post it for download on their website, but I didnt see it there). If you PM your email address I can email you the 2004 Sipp-O (Buckeye Council) Lodges PDF version, its a few years dated but still useful.

For SPL elections Id accept self nominations up to the night of the election with the letter and parent signature. In weeks leading up to the election at closing I'd announce anyone interested should see me right away so I could remind if they didnt know I wanted to see the parental signed letter.

For PL elections wed wait until the following week in case there were any patrol re-alignments done to have PL elections during their Patrol Meeting time. The patrols would handle it on their own in whatever manner they wanted as long as a PLC member recognized it as legitimate.

In addition to only one position per Scout, I would not allow a Scout to have the same position for two consecutive terms.

The Scout rank should be pretty automatic, if theyre coming to the first four to six meetings after crossover, they should have it all done. This will be reflected by the ability of your Troop Guide to teach the requirements and test them. Thats the only structure Id give the TG when I was SM Make sure they have an exposure at least once to each requirement for Scout rank within the first month of meetings. After that, they were subject to the Patrol leaders schedule.

I like to encourage FCFY, but only as a goal. Another goal is I give them to get well into (my subjective call) 2nd Class before summer camp to take a merit badge. Otherwise, they would join in the first year program. So you are doing fine, just make as sure as you can that they are learning the topics as much as possible. Some boys will blast through, others will stroll at their leisure. Let them set their own pace with some training structure (not sign off due dates) from your PL. The enthusiasm will temper as the year goes, so dont burn them out. Keep it fun so they keep coming back, especially when they have to make choices concerning other activities.

One thing I insisted they do no later than end of October/early November we would set up a Saturday to do an orienteering course for First Class req #2. The PLC would teach it and lead it, but there was no procrastinating until January for that sucker! I would not accept them trying to learn orienteering out in the fields shivering in sub zero weather and wind trying to count paces to stay on bearing with snow up to their hips.

BTW - It's been a long standing practice I instituted long ago that outside of BORs and SM conferences Troop adults aren't allowed to sign book requirements for T-2-1, and that includes summer camp staff. That't the PL's job. I may review the requirements with them at the SMC, but through normal troop activities we have frequent opportunities to demonstrate and practice skills they learned for rank. If we had instances where it was shown a Scout didn't know something he should, his Patrol leader would be tasked to reteach the skill. Some do better than others of course, but I'd rather pass off those roles to the PL and allow them to grow in that respect.