JoeBob

Uh, Moose? Here's an update for you: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2217286/Global-warming-stopped-16-years-ago-reveals-Met-Office-report-quietly-released--chart-prove-it.html "The figures reveal that from the beginning of 1997 until August 2012 there was no discernible rise in aggregate global temperatures This means that the pausein global warming has now lasted for about the same time as the previous period when temperatures rose, 1980 to 1996" You'll need to find another, better substantiated, bit of mud to fling at conservatives.

Fire is probably the most dangerous tool Boy scouts will ever use. My own personal negative experience: 3 fourth grade boys had a casual overnight campout in a pine forest. It was cold in the morning, so we built a little fire. I don't remember if we cleared a safety area. If we did it was not adequate. No problem until the breeze picked up and our fire spread over into the pinestraw blanket covering the forest floor. We tried to stomp it out with our feet. I do remember thinking it was fun trying to stomp all the fire down only to have it pop up again somewhere else. Three giggling little boys were running in and out of the fire playing at whack-a-mole. The blaze got into a stacked pile of limbs and grew in size. That's when I started worrying about getting a whipping. When a big yellow flatbed truck came crashing over the cattle-gap and unloaded a bulldozer with a fire-plow, I started to understand what trouble we were in. The firetower down the road had spotted our smoke and dispatched a unit. They circled the fire and let it burn out after consuming about three acres. Except for burning their fingers, Scouts today are not afraid of fire. They love fire's heat, staring into the mesmerizing flickering flames. They have never seen flame slyly lick its way down a finger of leaves and into the brush. They don't believe that the embers of a floating leaf can start a new fire off in the timber in dry conditions. More than once I've walked over to campsites at scout camp and found still smoldering coals and even fires cheerily burning after being revived by the wind. I know it's hard to expose all our boys to real hands-on fire safety. Using the fire department to help stage demonstrations would be good. Does anyone know of a good video online illustrating the raw power of fire, and how sneaky fire can be?

Years ago I was part of the crew photographing the Bay-to-Breakers 10K race in San Fransisco. Some folks were serious runners; but most folks ran in costumes, and quite a few, 10%?, ran nekkid. The lady who is now my wife worked as my loader, and we got to talking afterwards. Our conclusion: the people whose bodies you might want to see without clothes on were wearing clothes. All the people wearing only shoes, really should have been wearing clothes... In some cases, lots of clothes. And a paper bag.

Eagle732 - ROFLWLOMAO !! (WLO = What's Left Of) BigBovine - You have way too much patience.

moosetrackher, seems you missed the point of BigBovine's post: "If you do not like the current policy that much, change it in a civil manner or leave BSA. Do not demonize those that disagree. If you do you are more wrong than the ones you call names." If BSA standards are so hard for you to tolerate, don't. Bye!

Gentlemen, Apologies for the long question; I want you to have enough information. Our troop is in a big city and has been boy-led for several years. Although we claim to be a 'High Adventure Troop', we have actually devolved into a car-camping club for boys. The boys make up the annual calendar, and schedule one trip per month. The PLC chooses activities that they are familiar with for trips: caving, climbing (indoors), rafting, snow skiing, zip-lines, water skiing/tubing, shooting (rifle and shotgun), Camporee, bicycling, summer camp, canoeing, and one backpacking trip. We seem to rotate these same activities on an annual basis, with small variance. We do send an annual contingent to Philmont, Northern Tier, or Seabase. (How bad is it when 3 of your Philmont crew had never been backpacking before New Mexico?) Except for the one (poorly attended) backpacking trip, everything is car-camping and affords little chance for scouts to practice their scout skills. In fact, if you skip the back-packing trip, you don't NEED scout skills. Which brings into focus our almost total lack of proficiency in scout skills. In BORs we're seeing T-2-1 handbooks that are signed off, once and done, and no interest in retaining skills or teaching younger scouts. They don't go out into the woods, so they don't need to know birds and trees and orienteering. Why waste time developing acumen with ropes, saws, axes; why have a pair of well-broken-in boots? They'll never use them. Even the first aid skills are scoffed at: dial 911 and let the paramedics do it... It's a vicious circle: The PLC doesn't want to go into the deep woods because they're not comfortable there with no skills. They won't develop the woods skills unless we can convince them to go into the woods where they'll see the value of what we'd like for them to learn. Okay, the boys are learning management skills planning menus and assigning KP as they rotate through PORs. They are having fun doing fun things. But I fear that they are missing out on the self-reliance a boy grows when he realizes that he can take care of himself without an elaborate civilized support structure. They have no real challenges! How can we expect them to grow good character when they never leave their comfort zone. My question is three-fold: 1- Am I wrong in wanting to impose my Scouting expectations on the modern world? Are the basic scout skills irrelevant in the digital age? 2- What can I do to motivate / sell more of our adult leaders? (We have a core of 5-6 newer adults who share the same vision for the troop. We want our boys to be challenged and grow. The older leadership has settled for "whatever the boys want to do" car camping.) 3- How could we convince the boys to expect more of themselves? Right now, they're very comfortable playing at being Boy Scouts and accomplishing little of lasting value. They've never known any different...

OGE: I knew somebody would rise to that bait! I don't think gay morals are crooked; just different. The straight objection to having gay scout leaders is based on a parent's desire to not expose their young sons to gay men as role models. Fear of recruitment is real; the fear, not the recruitment.

Judging from all the viewpoints in this thread, one can assume that UPS had support from an element inside BSA that wanted to include gay leaders. Can you imagine what YPT will become? "Two adult leaders must be present at all time; at least one of whom must be gay." The left really wants to eliminate Boy Scouts as one of the last Male Bastions. If BSA eventually succumbs to media pressure and allows gay leaders, what do you think will happen to enrollment numbers? We'll lose a few raging homophobes; but we'll loose a LOT of religious and moral folks. One third? The media is already eroding BSA's moral high ground by inflating the 'Perversion Files.' (Irony alert: Why would any moral gay man want to associate with a bunch of Boy Scout perverts?) You know; in a digital world, Scout Skills, woodcraft and character as taught by the Boy Scouts may no longer be appropriate. Maybe it's time for the BSA to fade away. But let's go down being true to the code we grew on.

The UPS response: "Thank you for your e-mail. To ensure inclusion and diversity are reflected in its philanthropic giving, The UPS Foundation believes its funding must align with UPS's non-discrimination policies. UPS policy states that we place great value on the diversity that exists within our workforce, our customers, providers of goods and services to our company, and the global communities in which we do business. UPS also promotes an environment of inclusion that encourages equality among all people. UPS did not pull funding or take action that directly targets the Boy Scouts of America. UPS did deploy a policy for new grant requests that is applicable to all prospective grantees." FedEx, here I come!

Calico: "Paddle faster. I hear banjo music..." Papa: You like my PR effort? Better than bowing to the PC effort to denigrate a core belief of Scouting.

Part of the eMail I sent to UPS: "UPS thinks it is okay for two gay men to take 5 or 6 eleven year old boys into the woods? Really? Is your son going to be on that trip? FedEx has gained me as a customer." May not have much impact. But it might be enlightening.

Look at the Red/Blue political map. The Red states could break even by charging a "Fly-Over Tax" from the East coast and FL to the West coast. Relief from federal mandates will definitely put a secessionist block ahead financially. TX is just setting itself up as a closer place for the rich to move to.

The Feds do NOT regulate the way states vote, other than to prohibit certain discriminatory actions. Heck, in some states electors don't even have to vote for whom they were selected to vote for. http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/electoral-college/laws.html No Legal Requirement Electors in these States are not bound by State Law to cast their vote for a specific candidate: ARIZONA - 10 Electoral Votes ARKANSAS - 6 Electoral Votes DELAWARE - 3 Electoral Votes GEORGIA - 15 Electoral Votes IDAHO - 4 Electoral Votes ILLINOIS - 21 Electoral Votes INDIANA - 11 Electoral Votes IOWA - 7 Electoral Votes KANSAS - 6 Electoral Votes KENTUCKY - 8 Electoral Votes LOUISIANA - 9 Electoral Votes MINNESOTA - 10 Electoral Votes MISSOURI - 11 Electoral Votes NEW HAMPSHIRE - 4 Electoral Votes NEW JERSEY - 15 Electoral Votes NEW YORK - 31 Electoral Votes NORTH DAKOTA - 3 Electoral Votes PENNSYLVANIA - 21 Electoral Votes RHODE ISLAND - 4 Electoral Votes SOUTH DAKOTA - 3 Electoral Votes TENNESSEE - 11 Electoral Votes TEXAS - 34 Electoral Votes UTAH - 5 Electoral Votes WEST VIRGINIA - 5 Electoral Votes "Are there restrictions on who the Electors can vote for? There is no Constitutional provision or Federal law that requires Electors to vote according to the results of the popular vote in their States. Some States, however, require Electors to cast their votes according to the popular vote. These pledges fall into two categoriesElectors bound by State law and those bound by pledges to political parties. The U.S. Supreme Court has held that the Constitution does not require that Electors be completely free to act as they choose and therefore, political parties may extract pledges from electors to vote for the parties nominees. Some State laws provide that so-called "faithless Electors"; may be subject to fines or may be disqualified for casting an invalid vote and be replaced by a substitute elector. The Supreme Court has not specifically ruled on the question of whether pledges and penalties for failure to vote as pledged may be enforced under the Constitution. No Elector has ever been prosecuted for failing to vote as pledged. Today, it is rare for Electors to disregard the popular vote by casting their electoral vote for someone other than their partys candidate. Electors generally hold a leadership position in their party or were chosen to recognize years of loyal service to the party. Throughout our history as a nation, more than 99 percent of Electors have voted as pledged."

Don't tell anyone, okay? But I miss the knee high socks and garters. I thought they looked good as an integral part of the uniform, protected your legs from poison ivy and minor scratches, and multiples packed easy for longer trips.

Got an unwanted pop-up lower left corner that tries to open despite my blockers. Pesky varmit!

Callooh: at 6'2" I had a bit of trouble keeping my toes under a poncho liner. So I used the Field Jacket liner for my feet. Stick you dogs in the sleeves and you don't have to worry about 'em slipping out in the night. Dick Malvesti told me it was the best use of a field jacket liner he had ever seen.

Well, I'm not going to use it. I have a digital copy of the current form. Unless medicine changes radically for the good, there is no valid reason for me to endanger myself and my scouts by using a bad form when a better option exists. I don't think district, council or even national events will decline our participation. They want our money. Anyone else?

Moose: "FBI is getting involved in alot of the Republican stuff already this year." Really? Okay we have the one incident in Florida where the RNC filed charges against a hired worker: "The state (Republican) party filed the complaint against Strategic Allied Consulting with state election officials, who late Friday handed the case over to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement." One worker out of 2000 falsified registrations. The RNC caught him and filed charges. http://news.yahoo.com/voter-registration-problems-widening-florida-154156242--election.html My Google search for "Voter Registration Fraud Republican FBI" found ZERO matches, except for chatter on left-wing sites about this one incident. Until you get back to 2008 where the Republicans were demanding FBI investigation of Voter registration fraud by Acorn. If you can provide us with links to your superior information about "FBI is getting involved in alot of the Republican stuff already this year.", we may have to reconsider your credibility. Unless you consider one person to be 'alot of stuff'. If you can't provide certifications for your slander, then we can safely conclude that you aren't to be taken seriously.

Some folks go way overboard reading stuff into the G2SS that is really not the intent of the document. Our Day Camp Dude came back from NCS and banned the squirt gun fight that was the cherished end of camp ritual. The 'Water Soaked Sponges Fight' just didn't go over as well. But I agree that toy guns are not appropriate for Cub Scouts. 1- It is in the G2SS. Hide behind it if you like. 2- Bringing enough guns for everyone? 3- Who will monitor what the boy points his gun at? What will the consequences be for pointing it at a human? (This is my real objection. When this child moves up to BBs and .22s, he needs to have learned reluctance to point a weapon at a human.) 4- There are way too many other things to do in the woods! If your DL is threatening to quit over this, you probably need a new DL anyway...

Has anyone ever really tied a poncho liner to a poncho? I had to quit loaning my poncho liners to my un-initiated friends. They'd tell me to my face that I was NOT getting the poncho liner back! The only downside to poncho liners is that they are slippery. If you use one on top of your sleeping bag to improve the rating, the poncho liner waits until the coldest part of the morning (when you least want to crawl out of your bag) to slither off. I use a mummy-bag cover outside to hold the poncho liner in place when it's cold, which gives me a three layered system to adjust for all weather.

The experienced dads in our pack host two "PWD car cutting workshops" each season. We used to have an adult cut elaborate shapes with a bandsaw to get the boys started. But that was scrapped in favor of boy/dad powered coping saws. The biggest draw is two belt sanders fast-tied upside down on an 8x10 sheet of plywood. One runs a coarse belt, one runs a medium belt. The boys can shape and smooth their cars fairly well holding on with two hands. And a little sandpaper bite is a gentle way to reinforce tool safety. The younger kids need a parent to help them. We also strap two drills to the board and have one wheel smoothing mandrel and one for polishing axles. It's a social event, gets everyone fired up, and equalizes the toolheads with the single moms.

Moose: "We at least have WAKWIB showing honor, but it seems the majority of Republicans in our sampling on this forum, have forgotten what the word means." If this is your version of 'Morally Straight', I have to question your 'Mentally Awake'.

Eamon: "Trying to bring new people on board so it doesn't become an old codgers group" I know it's hard, and it's politically dangerous; but it sure does strengthen the program.

Moose: The White House - that would be that big building at 1600 Pennsylvania wherein lives the individual who gave the Attorney General job to Eric Holder, the head of the Justice Department? Even a moosedropper would have to admit that the White House is involved...

Seattle Pioneer, Your ITOLS training covered felling (in the direction you choose), bucking, splitting, hand axe, double bladed axe, folding saw, bow saw, crosscut saw (without pinching and losing the saw), pocket knife, folding knife, sheath knife, and the care of each? Outstanding! In my ITOLS class, as mentioned earlier in the thread, we touched a hatchet once to pass it around the circle of chairs. I could teach you for four hours, send you home to practice what you learned, and bring you back for another four hours to fine tune your skills with competition. Then I'd teach you how to teach your wood tools skills to boys, and send you back to your troop without worrying about you endangering anyone. Paul Bunyan is no longer taught by BSA. Leave no trace probably killed it. But the next time a tornado blocks your way to the hospital with multiple trees, you'll wish you had some well trained energetic scouts who knew how to swing an axe! Fire starting is straight forward? Is that with flint and steel, a commercial striker, a bow, or matches? Are you using dryer lint, squaw wood, birch bark, wax fire starters, pine lighter or gasoline? Is it blowing, raining, or extremely dry? What precautions apply to each? Is the fire for heat, cooking, or ceremonial light? The way you build a fire depends on its use. How about a charcoal chimney for your dutch oven? Combine in depth fire techniques with campsite basics and cooking, and you could have an interesting eight hours of instruction and practice. **** While it's true that the boys can pick up hiking, backpacking, land navigation, nature, first aid, canoeing, rowing, pioneering, ropes and knots from an MBC; the MBC is seldom there when the boys are in the woods. The SM and ASMs are the leaders present who can correct an error and improve technique; IF THEY KNOW the material. We were talking about training for leaders, right?