Stosh

Oh, it is a great analogy.  I took all my classes at the local University and I will bet dollars to donuts that I wasn't going to bet my diploma from Yale or Harvard no matter how much pull my dad may have had.  Try that transfer stuff, maybe half will transfer at best. 

51 minutes ago, gblotter said:

@Stosh

I get your points. Our model is not perfect, and I admit we have room for improvement. Maybe one day we will reach the kind of boy leadership you describe. Over the last year, I have stepped back a lot and just let them go at it (and sometimes fail).

This is a good start, they have to take ownership of the process, but it sounds like the process is entrenched in tradition without consideration to other options.

Our SPL will even give me a nasty stare if I start hovering.

As well as he should. 

Our boys have a ton of fun together and really like each other - sometimes a bit too much, which then descends into unproductive silliness. I believe that is one reason why the older Scouts keep their distance from troop campouts and other activities where the younger Scouts are present. I'm curious how other troops deal with the silliness factor, because it is a big issue with our younger Scouts.

The maturity level of a middle school kid will quickly get on the nerves of the older high school boys.  Heck, it gets on my nerves as well.  I don't blame them for their reaction, it's normal.  Here's were the 300' come into play.  The older boys should be allowed to form their own patrol and distance themselves from the "silliness".  Is that option being offered?

Regarding boy leadership, a typical troop meeting has a joint opening program with flag/oath/law and and announcements. This is directed by the SPL. Then the patrols break off for their own activities (directed by the PL). In the case of the new Scout patrol, the ASM is mostly running the show although they do have a PL.

This is what a Troop Guide is supposed to do.  Sounds like the ASM is taking away an excellent leadership role for a scout needing a POR, the TG is a good one in this case.  This can also be augmented with a good Instructor, (another good POR opportunity going to waste) because the ASM is messing with it.

The older patrol is usually a no-show entirely. We have never held a PLC.

And that answers the question that solves your problems.  Why aren't the older boys doing their own thing in their own patrol.  As I mentioned, if the activities don't cater to their interests, they vote with their feet!  Thus the no-show of the older boys.

As far as the PLC goes, if there are only 2-3 patrols, one isn't needed.  If there are 3 younger boy patrols, they can, if they feel the need, get an SPL to help them run their patrols.  Until the younger boys get a system going for them, I would suggest getting the older boys back with the lure of running something like a Veteran/Honors kind of thing where the first question asked is: "Well, what do YOU want to be doing?"  Let them run independently (no 13 year old SPL telling them what to do all the silliness 300' away, etc.) until they can slowly be worked back into the fold so to speak.  For example, 3 younger patrols, the newbies run by a TG/Instructor team.  Maybe once the older boys get on board with their program they might be interested in doing the TG or Instructor kinds of things on an occasional basis.  The SPL should be focused on helping the PL's be successful with their patrols, especially the newbie patrol...NOT the ASMs.  That should keep him plenty busy and out of running the patrols as a whole.

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The SPL also acts as a coordinator. For a campout, the SPL will contact the PLs to determine attendance headcount and coordinate other logistics. Menu planning and other campout preparations will happen at the patrol level led by the PLs (many times it is just one patrol anyway). 

Do you merge patrols when the numbers drop for an event?  I never did that.  If only 2 of the boys out of 8 show up and don't have as much fun, THEY will let their buddies know about it and encourage attendance.  Otherwise if they constantly merge the necessity of that goes away.

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Our big limitation is that our older Scouts don't usually show up to anything, so they can't be relied on for leadership and mentoring of the younger Scouts. We finally had to put a stop to absentee senior Scouts in the SPL position because it wasn't working for obvious reasons.

Yeah, I can see that.  What if the older boys were given a choice of going on a patrol canoe trip or staying home and "babysitting" all the scouts under the age of 13.  I know what I would vote for in a heart beat.

Our current SPL is only 13 years old. It's a lot to ask of a 13 year old, but he really is our best Scout. He is on fire with Scouting but still learning leadership skills (so am I).

I was at summer camp many moons ago where there was a troop nearby that the boys just all sat around doing "nothing".  It got my curiosity up and I stopped in to chat around their perpetual campfire.  What I found out was all the boys were 17 - 18 years of age, all Eagles, this was their last summer camp before heading in every different direction for college, they had done it all, and they decided to come to summer camp and just do nothing for a change.  They ate at the mess hall and went back to camp and jaw-jacked the whole week away.  What a great way to end out their Scouting careers.

Just because I took classes in one college doesn't mean I get a degree from another.

1 minute ago, LeCastor said:

@Stosh, as an ADC, I have made this argument to Troop Committees and Scoutmasters who ask me about how to conduct elections for SPL.  When I tell them their Troop might be too small to even need an SPL they look at me like I have 5 eyeballs.  They could easily have two Patrols, each with a PL, and no SPL at all.  Usually, the units go ahead and elect an SPL who acts in the capacity of PL over 12 Scouts...

Yep, happens all the time because some BSA adults think the position is necessary.  I waited until the boys decided they wanted an SPL and that was at the 4 patrol level for them.  They then picked one of their APL's to fill that position because he was doing a bang up job for the one PL and the other PL's wanted him to work for them as well.  It turned out really well.

A  2 patrol unit's PLC work can be handled by a phone call between the 2 PL's.  No need for an SPL unless one is put in that position by the adults.  Not a good solution for developing leadership in the troop.  Too often the SPL is nothing more than a SM directed position to see to it that what the adults want the adults get.

I hear where you're coming from.  If mamma ain't happy.......   well, you know the rest.  Le Castor Petit should be ready in a couple of years anyway.

Seriously.... One of the things that BSA might want to consider along the way is a defensive driving course for volunteers just like YPT.  Yes there's danger involved with not having YPT, but the way some of these scouters drive with other people's kids concerns me.

For the Red Cross, I have to have taken the course to drive certain Red Cross vehicles and I hadn't taken any driver's education for 50 years.  It was on-line, cost $15 and was well worth it in valuable information.  I haven't ever had a bad accident other than a few fender benders, but after taking the course I drive differently.  It also lets me know now important it is when volunteering for other organizations and the expectations I have placed on me when I have other volunteers in vehicles with me.

I was tasked with driving a 14,000# vehicle from Orlando Florida to Santa Rosa CA.  Going across Texas the speed limit is 80 mph.  I did NOT drive that vehicle 80 mph because of what I learned in that class.  After working the wildfires, I drove another one of those vehicles back to Wisconsin driving 65-70 mph. 

Every now and then we get reports here on the forum of someone injuring or killing scouts.  Maybe we need to revisit this.

  What are traffic lights?  And what are the red and green lights for?

Family camps????  Have you gone over to the dark side?

Welcome to the forum, thanks for not lurking anymore!

My son quit scouts 20 years ago.  I didn't.

What if she registers as a Lone Scout, what are the requirements for that?

@gblotter

As I read your post, the phrase PL acting like ASPL's.  This is where the rub comes for me.  With the patrol method, there should be a bit of autonomy with the patrols.  Each patrol is not responsible for doing all the same thing all the time.  This puts the burden on the SPL to run the show of 25 boys with 3 assistants.  The assistants take their guidance from the SPL and dictate to the patrols rather than the patrols deciding what they want.  If the SPL says we do this and the patrol members don't like it, the vote with their feet.  If they had ownership of what they did, the might be more attuned to actually participating.  The function of the Patrol "Leaders" here is to do nothing more than follow directions from the SPL.  They don't need leadership to do that.  One of the goals  of the PM is to develop multiple leaders in the unit.  Thus for my units I always place the PL in charge of his patrol.  He is directed to focus on taking care of them.  This means the PL worries about 6-8 boys instead of 25.  A far easier task and an easier learning opportunity.  The SPL's work to support the PL's and make them successful.  He is more of a teacher/mentor than a director.  Thus the PL's actually lead.  In your case you would have 3 people doing leadership instead of just one.  I found that this format in the PLC ended up as Okay boys (PL's) what do you need from me this month so that your patrols are successful with what they want to do.  It took about 2 months of that when the SPL realized his job of dealing with 4 people instead of 28 (in my situation) was a lot easier.  However, the challenges he had to deal with was the diversity of things the patrols wanted to do.  How do I get 2 adults to go to summer camp, another 2 adults to go to a second camp and yet another 2 adults to go to Philmont.  He could focus on that instead of trying to come up with activities a certain percentage of the boys really don't care about.  It works for me, your mileage may vary.

14 minutes ago, LeCastor said:

Hillcourt does deserve mention in the national museum and I hope that he will get that in the new museum being built at Philmont Scout Ranch.  Back about three years, I made a pilgrimage of sorts to the Bill Hillcourt Museum near Syracuse, NY.  Pretty cool place!

Does anyone have any inside scoop on why GBB gets a tad bit of recognition in the Scouting magazine after the long snub he's gotten?

Shoot, I didn't know there was a Hillcourt museum near Syracuse.  I was out there a couple of years ago and would have stopped in. 

The Mrs. really likes Fall and all the colors, I shouldn't have too much trouble getting in another Leaf Peeper trip next fall.  I think Syracuse is right along the way. 

Any word on when the new museum at Philmont will be opened?  Mrs. is talking about doing the canyon country, too. 

Anyone else out there that has a good place for the Mrs. to visit this year?

I visited the BSA museum in Irving, made a special trip for it to see what they had.  They had nothing on Percy Keese Fitzhugh nor Bill Harcourt.  It was kinda sad to see, but then again, the gift shop was almost as big as the museum part that was sad as well.  Did like the Rockwell paintings however.

I guess according to BSA there's no such thing as paying one's debt to society.  I know a lot of great people who did stupid things early in their lives that have done much, even more than normal, to make up for it.

I put this thread in I&P because it can go any where it wants.

I've been a book collector for years.  I have all the handbooks except for the first.  I've also collected a lot of the early literature of BSA that was promoted  prior to the electronic age.  lot of good information about scout unit structure that got boys going on early scout organization.

Happy Birthday @outpost, did you bring any treats for us?

A lot of the tangents we get off on are things we feel important.  Once they get cut off, this might be a good place to either finish up or continue on.

22 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Stosh, is there a topic in this thread?  I am not sure that one can be on-topic OR off-topic, if there is no topic at all.

How many people have a place here that want to just do a bit pf jaw-jacking but don't know where to start.  That's a topic.

How about all the lurkers out there....  do any of us here know what they're thinking about?  Or is this a place for only those who think they know it all?  I'm willing to bet there's a ton of information out there that the rest of us could learn a lot from. How many people are registered here and how many post?

By the way,  a piano has 88 keys, some black some white, all are equally important to make great music. If one doesn't get used in a particular piece of music,  they might be the most important one in the next one, Be Prepared.

I have always used the star of the show as the example.  They may get all the applause and standing ovations,  but they would be nothing without the other actors,  stage hands, production crews, publicity personnel, all the way down to the payroll clerk that cuts their over inflated paycheck.   😁

I got out my trusty flint and steel. Got the tinder and kindling going and tossed on a couple of logs. Pull up a stump or log, and this thread is not possible to stay on a thread for very long.  If it does I will be surprised. Feel free to jump in at any time with whatever might be interesting to others who find  a need to warm up.

CAUTION: If one has a topic they wish to stay on topic, please post in the proper category! 

If some adult wand to douse the fire, it's been done before for getting off topic, but they don't have that excuse here.  Keep the conversation Scout-like, respect others, and jump in any time. 

This campfire is especially open to the hundreds of lurkers out there who feel left out of other conversations.   I especially like dumb questions because I  am well qualified to give dumb answers.

I don't mind if my topics go afield, the whole point of my threads center around a virtual campfire.  No one stays on topic very long but the conversation is always worth every minute.