Stosh

Another note to consider...  Anytime one wears a sheath knife, carries it in a vehicle, etc. they must be exposed in an open carry state and if concealed, but have proper permits.  Youth under 18 cannot obtain such permits.  As mentioned, know the laws of the state one is in.

9 hours ago, prof said:

 The good old days!

Kit Karson Kit?  I have the BSA version of this.  Both knife and belt ax marked with the BSA logo and the the snaps for securing the knife and ax have the BSA logo.  The leather is embossed with the logo as well.

Not to worry, this process is nothing more than authoritarian gate-keeping and bullying of scouts who have earned the rank.  The EBOR is not a final test, it is not a judgment, it is not an evaluation of a Scout's career.  All BOR's are held AFTER THE RANK HAS BEEN EARNED. 

Instead of questioning the validity of a scout's record, I would be first in line to question the validity of the members of the BOR.  They obviously haven't been trained correctly as to what the process is all about and yet, feel they can jerk the boys around at will.  If they are worried about protecting the validity of the Eagle Rank, maybe they ought to be thinking about protecting the validity of the EBOR process instead.

I would bet that if one were to redact all the references to adults there wouldn't be much left of this thread.  So, I pose the question: what do adults have to do with the boy's selection of their officers if the unit is patrol method, boy led? 

All the comments thus far have been complaints about adults and their dictatorial rules and regulations that interfere with the unit the boys want.

If some boy doesn't want to be PL, why in the world is he running?  Oh, yeah, his dad is pressuring him.

When are the adults going to learn not to be doing stupid things that shoot themselves in the foot?

20 hours ago, JoeBob said:

If your are more interested in the experience of the  BWCA than the Northern Tier patch, it's more affordable and enjoyable to use a private outfitter.

Pro:

• Route flexibility.  The only reservation is your Entry Point and pick-up.  If you get into a poor campsite one night, move on.  Bad weather? Tent up for a day.
• Leisure. If you're in a good spot, linger an extra day and enjoy the wilderness.  Work on Scout skills, teach a merit badge.  Unstructured time for campers to bash around an have fun.  My approach to covering distance is to get out of civilization.  Once you're in deep, logging miles so that you can brag about paddling X number of miles is missing the point.
• Fishing.  Plentiful Largemouth, Smallmouth,  and Northern Pike.  Walleye, if you know how to catch them, makes the best eating fish.
• Campsite improvement opportunity.  Improve the fire ring seating, clear the landing area, cut back the latrine trail.  Blowdown trees were everywhere.  Folding saw and tomahawk were in frequent use.  Teach Paul Bunyan before you leave.
• Hammocks!  They pack light, sleep well, and not allowed at Philmont.
• Group composition.  Without YPT concerns, you can take anybody you want, as long as you stay with in the BWCA rules.  My dog was an excellent bear alarm.

Con:

• No patch.
• You have to plan more yourself.  http://bwca.com/index.cfm?

Bear in mind that some portages are more difficult due to the vertical content. Three miles of flat and smooth is easier than one mile of up and down, especially if it's steep and rocky.

Go prepared for the bugs.  Avoid black fly season.  Mosquitoes after dark can be brutal on the way to the latrine.  Avoid marshy campsites.  Our best was an exposed point on Disappointment where the breeze kept is bug-free for 2 days.

 

One of the times I went to BWCA, it was with two troops.  One was experienced in HA, the other not.  The groups were blended and all planning was done by both troops.  They had custom made hats, scarves and patches made for the trip. They used military duffles and packed with garbage bags.  It rained for 8 of the 9 days so dry-bags were a moot issue.

Even with all this, the cost per scout was less than 5 days of summer camp.

.... and from outside the box, why was a too-small site selected in the first place?

Totally agree.  I have an Official BSA camp knife I've had since I was in Boy Scouts.  I don't use that knife 1/10th of the time compared to the sheath knife.  Never trusted them, and the time I trusted a lock blade, I paid the price with a visit to the ER.

13 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

You are a lawyer AND a journalist? If you run for public office you will have the trifecta of "people with the lowest credibility".  (Well meant jab/joke)

My unit insists that ALL adults (leaders or not) pass a criminal background check. We put that in the bylaws years ago and the CO backed us on it. If people know that's a mandatory thing they either 1) don't join our unit, or 2) don't ever hand around events. We found that was the best way to avoid such issues. A local unit didn't do this and lived to regret it.

Now that wasn't nice or even correct.  1) Lawyer, 2) Journalist and 3) ?  Ya, need 3 for a trifecta.  So, I must ask the question to @NJCubScouterdid you ever sell used cars? 

Without a historical background before going, one misses the depth of understanding necessary to get the full impact of such situations. 

Standing on the parapet of Ft. Sumter on can only then be impressed by how far away the Confederate forts were and how in the world could they ever hit the tiny fort on the tiny island from that distance.

Standing on the west side of the road next to "the Cornfield" at Antietam, one would miss out on the fact that the youngest Congressional Medal of Honor awardee stood and fought in an artillery battery.

Jenny Wade (only civilian casualty of Gettysburg) had a house that she left and went to her aunt's house where she was baking bread to feed the union troops.  Jenny's house was 4-5 blocks behind the front lines, her aunt's house was in no-man's land between the two lines.

The largest Indian War (Sioux Uprising of 1862 was fought in Minnesota during the Civil war and the same soldiers that fought that war also marched into Atlanta on Sherman's March to the Sea and were in the Grand Review in Washington at the end of the war.  They covered more territory than any other unit in the Civil War..... they were infantry.

Standing on Hallowed Ground can only be fully fathomed with the reality of what went on in these places. 

If the Scouts visit these sites, they should know the reason why they are there in the first place.  Be Prepared.

I am of Norwegian heritage, I carry a Puukko knife I received at Confirmation and the .22 caliber rifle I got on my 12th birthday is still around,  Haven't shot it in the past few months but whe-n I want to squirrel hunt, it's my go-to rifle.  Of course, it is good to know that it was originally my grandfather's .22.  When I pass it down to my grandson, it will be noted to him it once belonged to his Great-Great-Grandfather.  When I field dressed out my son's deer this year, I used the hunting knife that belonged to my grandfather.  It is a sheath knife  I didn't use my Puukko knife because its blade is better suited for fishing, than hunting.  It's a sheath knife as well.

I have a scar on my right hand index finger from a buck knife that released.  That knife was in the garbage before the stitches were put in.  Sometimes modern technology isn't all that it is cracked up to be.

Citing historical validity at my age is always a questionable practice and I rely on others to offer corrections.

1) is it true that the first full traversing of the Appalachian Trail was accomplished by 4 Eagle Scouts that did so without any adult supervision?

2) is it true that the 1936 World Jamboree had two Boy Scouts that hiked from Argentina to the Jamboree in Virginia without adult supervision?

1 hour ago, ParacordMan1220 said:

There have been changes made to the 'Guide to Safe Scouting,' and the part discouraging "sheath knives" has been removed. Now ScoutStuff (dot) org is selling Helle knives similar to the Scandinavian Puukko designs.

Is anyone else excited to see this as a step forward? Being an avid BushCrafter/Survival Enthusiast, and what could be considered a connoisseur of blades, I'm excited to see the scouts carrying better styles of knives. These are better incorporated in the wilderness environment, rather than the folding ones which are more suited to the urban environment. Plus their cheap BSA chinese knives really sketch me out when they try using them. I'd rather see them put the same amount of money towards the quality of a Mora.

Or are we still on the path that sheath knives are 'frightening' and say 'I can do the same things with a sheath knife that I can do with a Swiss army knife.'

The interesting background to Puukko knives is that it is the traditional Confirmation gift to young men achieving adulthood in their culture.  If one's going to slap someone with some off-hand PC rhetoric, this one ranks right up near the top.  

Only if one wishes to wok their dog in the park.

Of course that begs the logic of "If it's working the way BP wanted it to and it grew for 50 years into a powerhouse of a program and now after 100 years it's a mere shadow of what it was, what changed?"  Either it's the program or it's the people.  One can argue and debate 'til the cows come home as to whose fault it is, but it won't solve the problem.

1) It's the program's fault, it didn't change, and it's no longer relevant to today's world.

2) It's the program's fault, it did change, and it's not what people want and thus no longer relevant to today's world.

3) It's the people's fault, they changed and the program is no longer relevant to today's world.

4) It's the people's fault, they didn't change, and they moved on leaving the program as no longer relevant to today's world.

5) (Insert whatever excuse one wishes) and it's no longer relevant to today's world.

Well if the debate shifts over to offering something, anything, to try and make whatever one has as relevant, it is easy to see BSA is in a 50 year slide with many miles to make up to be relevant to today's world, because statistics show it isn't relevant to today's world.

No amount of methods, aims, visions and gimmicks are going to work.  They may mask a  symptom, but they aren't going to cure a thing.

Back in the early years of scouting in the US, Matthews from national took it upon himself to start a Boy Scout Library and he selected 72 classic, historic, outdoor adventure kinds of books and had them published in a series of books known as the "Every Boy's Library" with a BSA logo affixed in a variety of ways depending on the publishing editions.  The third edition has an impressive cover.  None of these books were particularly Boy Scout literature per se except for the covers.

A gentleman by the name of Percy Reese Fitzhugh wrote a series of 3 books that caught the eye of Matthews.  The one that set the tone was ALONG THE MOHAWK TRAIL.  Matthews contacted Fitzhugh and commissioned Boy Scout specific series of books.  They followed the lives of certain scouting stereotypes, i.e. Roy Blakeley was an upper-class, cut-up always doing strange and different adventures,  Tom Slade was a ruffian turned Scout that served in WW I and later became a SM and the personality we might all remember was Pee Wee Harris, an overly zealous scout who ate, drank and breathed scouting.  Fitzhugh wrote the books over the course of the early 1910-1940's.

It is interesting the HUGE emphasis on the boys were always in a patrol setting and never really held any troop activities.  The small group of boys were the only focus throughout the series.  Summer camp in the early books were the boys going off into the outdoors (NY State, the boys' troop was in NJ), finding a place to camp and then staying there for two weeks.  The most interesting thing was on the middle weekend the SM would come out, find them and "see how they were doing."  Otherwise no adults are mentioned other than those the scouts encountered in the course of their adventures.  In the later books Temple Camp was established and each patrol would over the course of time would build their cabin and spend THE WHOLE SUMMER.  After all, it was summer camp.  The camp was staffed by a cook, and the SM to see how things were going and Scout Commissioner would come out occasionally and hold extensive testing of the boy's scout skills for advancement.  Those two positions were the only two adults ever mentioned in the books. 

There were multiple patrols in that Pee Wee was not a member of Roy's patrol, and they would on occasion "adopt" him for a particular adventure.

Now how much of what was being described by Fitzhugh was the expected norm for Boy Scouting in the early years is truly accurate or whether it was just idealistic description of what scouting should be, I don't know.  But Fitzhugh's writings were received well enough that over 70 books were commissioned and one was not published, but was printed in Boys Life back in the 20's/30's as a serial.

NONE of what were presented to the boys back in the early years of scouting would be acceptable in today's program.

It makes me wonder if real scouting envisioned by BP has no place in today's world.

Is it just me, or does it seem unfortunate that this thread is under Issues and Politics instead of the Patrol Method?

On 11/29/2017 at 9:26 PM, Eagledad said:

Or give the Scouts more control.

 

Barry

In an ideal world,  but I don't see it applied very often in the world of reality.  I would even consider staying on with co-ed scouting if the program was uniquely patrol method,  but it is destined to be nothing more than another adult led youth program.   Those are dime-a-dozen entertainment programs that don't allow the youth to grow and develop.   I  can find those opportunities closer to home and run more easily than the convoluted, poorly defined BSA program.

I like the sign in middle of Royal Gorge bridge.   It says "No fishing from bridge."  one can almost see the water from there. 

I am under the impression that BP felt that it was a lot more to do with preparing boys to be men than just soldiers.   Being a man in today's world is a big challenge, the focus should rest there where it originally started.

It is on topic.   We have a great list here, and yet there a ton of boys that are focusing on MB's and advancement.   I have too many boys spending more time picking out MB's than packing.   And how many of limited classes be filled with family?  I  wouldn't complain one bit if MB's disappeared from the summer camp  experience.   Stick with the list above!

I'm thinking BSA lost control of quality a long time ago. Just my opinion.

23 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Thank you for NOT mentioning advancement - merit badges, Path to Eagle, ... as a reason.

And what makes anyone think those issues are not floating around in the background for girls, too?  I see on the horizon adults earning Eagle as it once was, there is a president for that on the record.  So, who's mom is going to be the first Eagle?

I am waiting for the bill that requires handicap accessibility to the Tooth of Time. I'm thinking it will draw away a fair amount of money from a lot of scouts.    The next thing we will be discussing is electricity to every summer camp site and then every "wilderness" site as well.  So much for the wilderness adventure.   Add to those who are wheel chair bound who want to go along.  It's a slippery slope BSA is on.

I find it very difficult to see where family fits anywhere in the list.  It basically assumes family is not included. Great list, everyone at National should read it.