Stosh

That, too, is only half right.  As a franchisee of the BSA program, the CO has a responsibility to insure the BSA program is followed.  Otherwise, they should be sponsoring their own program or a different program.  If not it is a guarantee that the product delivered to the customer will not be consistent throughout the organization, a problem we are experiencing right now.

OK, Stosh so give me more details on how this works.   

 

Let's say that in the year, the expenses are something like $300 for summer camp,  $30 for BSA enrollment, $20 for supplies like patches and pins and Eagle gifts, etc. and $50 for other outings.

 

Does the parent pay $50 to the troop for the supplies and BSA enrollment? 

 

Our Troop has scout accounts but honestly I am not up to speed on how those work out.  We usually pay as we go for our kids activities.  So for example, they have a camping weekend that's $25 a kid, and we'll write a check for $50 for our two kids. 

When a boy joins or at recharter time we collect the registration fees due outside of the unit from the parents.  If the boy goes on an activity, the family pre-pays the expenses.  If there is bling needed, the parent pays for their boy's bling.  If they want to go to camp, the parents pay for it. 

Now if the parents think it's too expensive, they pull together a fundraiser.  I don't care as long as it's not a raffle or a Ponzi scheme.  They generally push the popcorn sales and as adults get out and raise a ton of money selling popcorn with or without their scout. That's how most operate anyway.  If the PARENTS decide the kid ought to get off the sofa and help, it's their call.  I don't care.  I don't have to keep track of who's doing what either.

All the money goes into the troop fund and patrol funds.  There are no individual scout accounts.  I have ethical and legal concerns about that practice  Everyone of my parents are on board with this view.  If one wants to work to have a troop experience for their boy, they fundraise.  End of discussion.

When the funds get low, they do fundraising.  To-date, there has always been enough money to cover all but $50 for summer camp (everyone has to have a bit of skin in the game), cover all the bling, and gas for the outings.  If the troop runs out of money either the parents fundraise or they start paying out-of-pocket.  I don't care how they work it out, it's not my problem, I'm not involved.  If there is some scout struggling financially, the Committee (made up of these parents) can decide how to spend the troop funds that they have raised anyway they wish to,  They raised the money, they can spend the money.  The boys have hand-me-down tents they got from another troop when they bought new tents.  They got military surplus equipment from a parent who scrounged them up.  They have a troop flag because the parents wanted the boys to have one.  They have propane stoves because the council camp bought new ones and the boys did an extensive service project to help out the camp and they gave them the stoves in return for their efforts.  The parents do a lot of fundraising and the boys participate as they are able.  Any evaluations as to funding the boys is entirely up to the Committee.  IF someone turns in a receipt for gas they get paid, no questions asked.  I never submit a receipt in that the Committee pays my registration, so it kinda balances out in the end.

Does it work?  It must because I have never hear of any grumbling about finances and the money is always there when needed.  Do the boys work at it?  Two of my boys raised over $2500 in popcorn sales this year.  I have a troop of 5 active boys.  That means we won't have to worry about summer camp next summer, it's taken care of.

There are no rules, no regulations, no attendance taking, no ISA's, just everyone working together to make sure the troop stays operational so the boys have an opportunity for a Scouting career.

By the way, I do not eat with the boys, but bring my own food.  I am careful not to spend the boys' money, but appreciate the generosity of the parents when they pay my annual registration, and we attend summer camp where two leaders attend for free.

On this last campout the boys did divvy up the fish they caught so I had some of it.  They figured that if they caught it and I cooked it (which they didn't know how to do as yet) that everyone would get an equal share of the rewards.  I did teach them how to clean the fish.  It's called teamwork. 

Our CO is an elementary school PTO that is very hands off, and interesting, our district commissioner is the person who is listed as Scoutmaster on our 7 page Troop bylaws.  

 

Then it's time to get a new UC that is impartial.  No one who is registered or has been registered with a unit should be it's UC.

 

Guess I'll focus on my jobs -- being a good mom, and making great committee meeting minutes.  Honestly I don't want to make things messy, but it would be wonderful for the boys to have more opportunities to make decisions for themselves.  What can I do to help make things better in the Troop?

 

I've been in scouting for 45 years, Ive been a UC for over 5 years, I've held positions from Cub DL to Venturing Advisor.  I am WB trained and trained as a leader from Cubs to Venturing.   With everything you've described, I for one would not know where to even begin to fix all the stuff I see wrong with the operation of that unit.  Good luck.

That assumes one has a pet snake.

 

If you don't want a reptile or an amphib for a pet, then this "study" becomes rather difficult.

Aww Com' on!    If he already has a pet snake, why is he catching a frog for the study!?? 

One could always catch a wild frog for the observation part of this requirement and then after 30 days, it becomes a "pet" and can't be released back into the wild according to state law.  Well then, they could always just feed it to their pet snake and everyone's happy.  Right?

It is surprising how many of these dramas that troops face are adult-created.  Sure sometimes the boys need to be reined in when they wander outside the BSA policies, get involved in risky activities, need some Law and Oath directives, and the boys aren't gaining anything out of the program.  But if all Hell breaks loose because the boy's screwed up, it's fixable and okay, this is why the boys are in the program in the first place.  However, if all Hell breaks loose because the adult's screwed up, then there's no one to blame but the adults, who generally won't follow the Oath and Law and fess up to it.  Those problems generally can't be fixed as easily.

The goal of the game for the adults is: NEVER, EVER get caught holding the bag.  It is surprising how the level of drama drops to almost zero when this rule is followed.

Just go back and look at all the "concerns" mentioned on this forum and do an in depth look as to the root of the problem.  How much of it is adult and how much is it the boys.  I rest my case.

No dues. 

Fundraisers are the sole ownership of the parents.  If they don't want to do fundraisers, they pick up the total cost of their son's scout experience.  If that is a financial burden, they can do fundraisers to get someone else to pay for their son's scout experience. 

The boys participate, if they wish, in the fundraisers.  Some of the money taken in is earmarked for troop expenses and some for patrol expenses.  The committee uses the money to keep the unit solvent.  The patrol money is spent by the boys for things of importance to their patrol operation.  Nothing ever is earmarked for an individual scout.  However, there are times when a family is having financial difficulty, the troop can offer troop funds to scholarship them to summer camp.  This is an easy decision when it is observed that the boy was doing is fair share or even double-duty during the fundraisers.  It all seems to flow nicely under these parameters.

And as I have suggested in the past, one could always raffle off a goat as a fundraiser. 

Right, would it be fair to say that a BSA Troop operates per BSA policies?  Is there a piece of literature that would be referred to?

 

I am not sure if I should attempt a bylaws repeal with the parent committee, or a "repeal and replace" with something extremely simplified. 

 

Or, just go as is, assuming no one reads or really follows the bylaws anyway?

One would assume that every adult that volunteers for the BSA get the appropriate training for the job they will be doing. If one has by-laws, that should be #1.  After that Rule #2 should be Stay in your own lane and quit worrying about what everyone else is doing, they are trained to do it and have responsibility to do it.  I don't know what rule #3 would be. 

Also, remember that not all YPT problems are created by "shady" people.  I learned a long time ago not to judge a person or a book by its cover.  ... and I don't trust every background check that comes along.  Like Groucho Marx once said, "Why would I want to join an organization that would take me as a member."  I've passed more background checks that the average person because of all the youth work and volunteering I do.  In spite of that, the jury is still out on me.   

If one is smoozing with the "powers-that-are", one needs to get in with the COR.  That is the person who dictates who is assigned to what position in the troop.  He/She says who the CC is, who the SM is, and who the MC's and ASM's are.  It cuts down on the drama to have a trained and sane COR running the troop's HR department, which is their job!

The COR, working with the Unit Commissioner, can go a long way getting the troop back on BSA policy.  Otherwise, one is subject to the personal whims of everyone who thinks they are King of the Troop.

I volunteer for the Red Cross, an organization that operates at a far higher level than anything BSA could even dream about.  There are certain phrases that keep popping up throughout the organization that make a big difference on the effective functioning of the huge relief operations they are involved with.  Trained people come from all over the world, from many different organizations, private, public, faith-based and governmental, and all interact under the direction of the Red Cross.  The phrase that comes to mind in your situation is "STAY IN YOUR OWN LANE!"  Every time I get deployed to a national disaster operation when I walk in the door, the only question I have in my mind is, "Who do I report to and who is my supervisor."  Once I have that, I know exactly what it is I'm going to be doing for the next 2-3 weeks.  If someone other than my supervisor tells me to do something, the standard answer is, "You will need to get with my supervisor on that, he/she will let me know what they feel is necessary for me to be doing."  I am trained and assigned to do a specific task.  I stay with that, and ignore everything else otherwise "kick it upstairs".

What the members of the troop described above need to learn this drama-less process of using volunteers effectively.  The adults in this scenario need to stay in their own lane, get the job done they were trained and assigned to do.  They have no business messing around in someone else's responsibilities.

This ought to be done by the troop in the first place.

I took WB because I felt I needed it.  I paid for it and afterwards was reimbursed by the troop.  None of the members of my WB patrol stayed in Scouting for more than a year after WB.  Those in my troop who took it with me are no longer in scouting either.  I have remained with scouting since I took the course in 1993.

It made no difference to me over the years whether I paid for it or the troop did, it was for me.  Because I stayed with the program, the troop benefitted and their generous reimbursement was appreciated.  However, one never knows the Return on Investment one is anticipating when someone takes WB will stay on or not when one is out recruiting people for the training.

My approach to this opportunity would be John takes WB and pays for it himself.  Three years down the road, Little Johnny is ready for NYLT.  I ask John what he thought of WB and if he knows NYLT is like WB for the boys.  He said it was a great asset and was glad he took it.  At that point I would ask John if I could pay for Little Johnny to take NYLT to get the same benefit he had gotten.  I think your ROI will be better spent

I don't think it was meant to be almost the polar opposite though. At one time the dens operated like patrols with the den leader as the patrol leader. There were no "parent sign-offs" on requirements. Activities were done as a den, and awards, arrowheads, etc... were earned as a cub scout not done at home with mommy or daddy. Pack activities were limited to only a few a year, pinewood derby, and blue&gold were the only ones I even recollect as a kid except for the pack campouts which were really den campouts with dozens of other dens around. I think the idea behind cubs was worthy as a growth step for boys to become Boy Scouts, but along the way it has morphed into something so different that in many cases is an obstacle to becoming a boy scout.

This is especially true for the transitional program of Webelos and NSP!  This is the core of one's retention process.  The programs change and special attention at this junction is critical so that the BOYS change along with the program.

Here is another piece of our Troop's bylaws that needs to go:

 

A designated member of the Parent Committee shall keep a “cuss†box. 25 cents will be charged for every word considered by the troop to be a "cuss". Theft from the "cuss" box will be punishable with the return of the money in twofold. The money will be periodically turned over to the Troop Treasurer for the Troop funds. The "cuss" box is applicable at Troop meetings and all Troop outings.

 

Doh!

Naw, gotta keep that one in there.  That's how I financially support my troop.  They make more money that way than just relying on FOS from me. 

  The only ambivalence I have with OA is the difference between what it is supposed to be and what in reality it is.  As long as it is as poorly run in my area, what difference would it make to have girls join.  There's nothing there to really get excited about in the first place.  If it is going to be run as it was designed to run, then leave it the way it was designed to run, an honor camping/service program for Boy Scouts.

Here is the language from our Troop bylaws.  Any suggestions on how to re-write? How are patrols typically formed -- by the Scoutmaster? 

 

Thank you for any help.

 

The older scouts are organized into 2 or more permanent patrols depending on the size of the troop. New scouts that have just crossed over from the cub pack will be placed in their own patrol for their first year. In the following January, the Scoutmaster or their designee will break up the new scout patrol and will distributed its members into the existing permanent patrols.

 

 

ETA: I could just propose that the Troop eliminate all the bylaws and just operate under BSA policy!  People would likely freak, but it might be interesting!  

And this runs counter to everything ever written by BP!   I use the NSP effectively in my troops.  The NSP get's to pick it's own members from the group of incoming newbies AND any other scouts in the unit they wish to invite.  I had one instance where an older brother of one of the new boys join the NSP as their PL.  It worked out just fine and they didn't need a TG.  6-8 per patrol, and THEY TELL ME what they want for membership.  They get a TG and depending on the skill of that person, that can cover multiple NSPs if necessary.  At the end of the first year, the NAME of the patrol changes.  I as an adult never interfere in the membership of a patrol.  The NAME changes from NSP to REGULAR patrol.  That's it, nothing else changes, except at that point the TG begins an exit strategy from the operation of the patrol.

One of the reasons why the NSP works for me is that I don't have any helicopter parents, ASM's or adult interfering in the selection, operation or membership retention of the patrol.  No SM in his/her right mind would do an "apple-cart upside-down" on a regular patrol or a venture patrol, so why don't they offer the same respect to the NSP?  Well,... unless they think they know better than the boys.  That disrespect will carry on through those boys' scouting memory for a long time.  To me, that's not a decent way of taking care of my boys, especially when they are first starting out in scouting and are testing the waters of a whole new adventure.  Adults don't need to be making waves.

How are adult created rules and by-laws a part of boy-led?

After many years of working with youth, I have NEVER resorted to looking it up in some rules document to make a point.  By the time one is looking for some support for their argument, they have already lost control of the situation.  It is far better to head off problems before they occur.

99% of the rules, regulations and by-laws created by the adults are additions to the requirements of BSA policies.  This is an inappropriate way of running a BSA unit.

I go with qwazse on this one.  Adult rules are worthless.  Doing what one believes to be the right thing at the time is generally a better policy than referencing rules made up by some committee because of some perceived shortcoming in the program.  The program is just fine, adults don't need to fix anything.

I operate under only 3 basic personal "rules".

1) Safety first - nothing trumps this rule and anyone in the area can bring full authority into the situation to keep everyone safe, both feet and a 2X4 if necessary.

2) Look and act like a scout - this pertains to proper clothing and following the Scout Oath and Law.  Never got any pushback on this one.

3) Have fun - this may sound strange, but if someone is feeling bullied, he isn't having fun.  If he is homesick, he isn't having fun.  If he is bored, he isn't having fun.  If he is struggling with advancement because of some stupid adult rule, he isn't having fun.  The list goes on and on.  All these things are an infraction of the rule and must be dealt with immediately.

There's enough drama and conflict to begin with, one doesn't need rules to correct it, all they need is the Scout Law and Oath.

One of the problems facing the fledgling co-ed Explorer program was it's main focus was not on scouting activities.  Most of them were a Nature Post, a Medical Post, a Law Post, a Law Enforcement Post, etc. career focused programs on a certain interest area.  All the "old" Explorer Posts (of which were very few) were just call General Interest Posts.  Like I mentioned, they were a very limited number of these Posts, in that the push was for career oriented posts, not the old Scout focused Explorer Posts.  There weren't many boys interested in these General Interest Posts, let alone girls.  They wanted the Career Posts like Medical where they could actually work in a hospital or Law where they could shadow a lawyer, etc.  Seriously how many boys if given a choice between a Law Enforcement Post and ride in a squad car vs. a General Interest Post sitting in the woods. 

So we fast forward 20 years and for some reason a few of the outdoor gals in a GI Post, push for OA membership?  Okay, a couple at least and BSA shuts down the door quickly.  Not enough gals to make a big deal about it so it's swept under the rug.  Then in the late 1990's National BSA breaks up the program into career Explorers now known as Learning For Life and the old GI Posts they rebrand into Venturing Crews.  So one takes an old sock and runs it through the washer, but voila, it's still an old sock.  So for 17+ years BSA has been trying to shore up a program that wasn't all that steady to begin with.  It's a pig, it ain't never gonna fly and no amount of lipstick is going to make a bit of difference.

So what's left in National's little bag of tricks?  Let's just make the whole thing co-ed.  Yep that's the magical cure-all and the sun will come up and the roses will bloom yet once more.  Well, the future looks a tad bleak and I see more thorns than roses out there.

So where do we stand with OA in general?  Is it like the old Explorer Posts that need rebranding, maybe go co-ed too.  Shore it up, find some lipstick?  I haven't had an OA election in either of my last 2 troops in over 7 years.  I did my brotherhood 20 years ago, paid my dues faithfully for 10 years and got one newsletter and that's been my OA experience since.  It's really sad because I don't hear any rumblings about even miss having the program around.  Adult volunteers do the summer camp setup and tear down, the one big thing the OA used to do.

So, the hot topic is girls in the OA?  Sure, why not, the boys don't seem all that interested in it around here, same for Venturing.  I sure hope other Councils are better off than mine.

You are a better man than I am, Gunga Din! 

The ignorance of youth is a wonderful thing.

The wisdom of age allows one to know exactly where the land mines are located. 

Hmmm.... it took 20 years to close the door on Explorers in OA?   General Interest Explorer Posts weren't really a hot-bed of female interest.    As a matter of fact, only about 5, maybe 6 GI posts in our council out of 43 Posts in the Council I was in in the early 1970's  Splintering it off in the late 1990's when they shut down potential OA females really didn't do much to help bail out the sinking ship. Then in the late 90's Venturing with a whole new "image" really didn't take off.  Putting a Bandaid every 20 years isn't really going to cure the patient.

Oh, if one is into simple Math, every 20 years is a generation.

There are many of us that have already sailed these treacherous waters many times.  But there has always been plenty of maps and support in those processes to help minimize the risks.  BSA does not have a sound track record on that process.  Sure they have worked many years on a declining co-ed program called Exploring/Venturing, but back in the 1970's when Exploring went co-ed there were a ton of problems.  I worked two years in that program in a Council setting, organizing these groups.  It was pretty much running barefoot through broken glass.  I was 20 at the time and weathered a lot of storms and learned a lot of lessons.

Times have changed.....  But so have I.  Do I really want to go back and do it all over again in a far different world of today?

Hap Pigsley, a motivational speaker on industrial safety once said out of 330 risky behaviors, one will get away with it 300 times, but 29 of those times will result in injury and one on average will result in death.  He then held out a large jar of candy to the audience and said, help yourself.  There's 330 pieces of candy in there.

How many times is one going to reach into the jar knowing and having experienced the problems that lie ahead?  I am currently grooming one of my ASM's to take over the troop.  There's no way I'm going to let 45+ years of a good scouting career go down the toilet on the word of some angry kid.

Well done and well thought out.

The only caveat I would add would be the historical sites.  No one is going to make a special trip from Minnesota to Yellowstone for the MB, but Minnesota is loaded with many great historical places that may be more interesting than Ft. Snelling that has probably already been visited by the Twin City scouts.

The largest Indian War in American history was fought in Southern Minnesota in 1862.  Mankato was host to one of the largest public executions in American history when 38 Indians were hung.  New Ulm was under siege for 3 days, the only time in American history where the Indians were able to do this.  Interesting read on how US dealt with the Indian populations before, during and after conquering them.

Tower/Sudan Mine it is now run by the US Parks Service!

Bois du Brule - St. Croix portage that linked Lake Superior to the Mississippi during the fur trade era.

Kensington Stone

Maybe a scout outing for the rest of the boys in the troop would go a long way to promote a rather tedious MB.

On the other hand, I couldn't wait to get away from family and be with my buddies.  I have been camping since I was 4 years old and at age 11, I got the chance to finally dump the family and go out into the great outdoors with my buddies.

Of course, I never grew up and I married a gal that didn't either.  Flew down to Orlando for the Red Cross to help with the relief of Hurricane Irma.  They asked if the Mrs. and I were interested in driving one of the Red Cross trucks to Sacramento.  I looked at the Mrs. and she smiled and said ROAD TRIP.  When we got to the wild fires in California, we put in two weeks there and I decided to head home.  I asked the Mrs. to make arrangements for a flight home.  She said, there's a Wisconsin Red Cross truck in the shop, should be done in a day or two.  I smiled and said ROAD TRIP!

There are some people that from an early age never quite figure out what a real Adventure is all about!  They sign on for the fun and adventure and then can't let go long enough to really experience it.  I don't care if it's into the woods, into the wilds, or on down the road, if it smacks of the unknown possibilities of an adventure, I'm all over it.

Just this morning my son-in-law came in from hunting on my back 9 acres.  He showed me a picture of a deer scrape.  He's not much of an outdoorsman, but he did get his first deer/buck this past weekend.  I assured him what he was showing a picture of was not a deer scrape, it was 8' from ground up that tore the dead tree to shreds.  I told him that when he and I go out tomorrow to hunt, don't just watch out for the deer, there's a bear out there, too.  And the adventure begins!!! 

• 1. engage in hazardous and exciting activity, especially the exploration of unknown territory: "they had adventured into the forest"

What do these kids think scouting adventure is supposed to be anyway?  Sleeping in a tent with Mom?  Com' on!

This overlapping programs and rule changing on the part of BSA is the best way they have come up with when shooting themselves in the foot. 

This trial-and-error method of fixing dying or struggling programs just isn't working out for BSA and for well over 45 years one's track record would dictate at least quit doing it.  They have yet to learn.

I'm confused, how is ONE committee member running the whole show?  Where's the CC in this formula?  And why is the Committee running the program? That's the SM's job!   Maybe it's time for a visit with the COR and educate that person on what a BSA program is supposed to be.  Sounds like someone needs an early retirement. 

Oh, yes, too, the committee needs to be properly trained in the BSA program.

Why isn't the troop Instructor teaching the NSP, it's his job! 

Where's the TG in this whole process, it's his job!

Where's the mentoring of the SPL with the NSP PL, it's his job!

Where's the PLC setting rules and regulations, it's their job!

Cheesh, I have more youth led going on in my church's youth group than what's happening in this troop!

Oh, by the way, your troop does not have helicopter parents, they have bulldozer parents.  Big difference.

One of the problems we have in our council and the troop I was serving at the time, the boys took MB's that aren't taught back in the council.  Finding counselors for partials was hard enough, finding counselors for obscure MB's is impossible.