Stosh

7 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

I've recently completed my institution's required Title IX indoctraining so I'm perhaps a bit hypersensitive to the ever shifting definitions of proof, evidence, due process, and "normal human interaction."

Now I'm confused.  How does Title IX discrimination for governmental institutions fit in with shaking hands, unless one is making the effort to shake only certain people's hands?    I do recall it customary to shake a woman's hand, but only if she offered her's first.

Then of course there's the hypocritical discrimination processes creeping in where it's okay for a gal to hold a door for another gal, or even a guy, but a guy holding a door for another guy is okay, but not for another gal.

So, the polite customs book is being rewritten.... when's it going to get published so we know what the new rules are? 

I'm of an age where I know the tried and true customs of 20 years ago.  I go by them because a scout is courteous.  If someone has a problem with me being out-of-date with being PC polite, then they have a problem.  Not me.

I find it interesting that even the "no-touchy, feely" people shook my hand on the way out of church.

Now some of the customs have gone by the wayside, which is kinda sad on many levels.  

It takes a heroic amount of tolerance to offer one's hand for a handshake only to receive a scowl and a grunt in return.

A few minutes during new scout orientation might be on the subject of anger management.  I think it falls under A Scout is Friendly.  What we often forget is - it isn't the "weapon" that's the problem, it's the person holding it.  I guess in the long run, I"m more worried about the person's attitude than the knife on his belt.

No, it was not directed at you @NJCubScouter it was directed at all the others out there that simply find it necessary to protect the integrity of the Eagle process beyond the requirements.  We get a lot of that in the lower ranks, but when it comes to Eagle, the zealousness of the leadership seems to take an entirely different set of criteria from which they work.

And what's wrong with just going with what the requirements say without adding or subtracting anything from them?

And today, if it isn't able to be plugged into the back of an X-Box with the fingers, it isn't allowed.  

One of the things we often forget in Scouting is that we are teaching the boys independence.  That in and of itself runs counter to today's parental control of the child.  40 years ago I took a course in college titled, "Child Development".  Too bad that, along with many other things in life, has changed.  Childhood back then was defined as ending at 18 years of age.  Now it's defined as when they move out of the basement.

Special Forces training teaches that anything can be weaponized.  With that as our guide we could be in a heap of trouble trying to redefine the world.

1 hour ago, Hawkwin said:

America has been a melting pot (or perhaps more accurately, beef stew - sort of like BSA now), for centuries with far more diverse opinions, cultures, and norms than BSA. Certainly we, people that follow the Oath and the Law, can learn to "feel comfortable" with the idea that another Troop might have different members than our own - especially when we consider the fact that most if not all non-religious employers are even more accepting of diverse cultures and norms than BSA.

Heck, my employer accepts cross-dressers (not that I have ever seen one in my workplace), doesn't mean I am going to quit my job. Also, as I eluded to in another thread, I am a vet. My old Parachute Infantry Regiment now accepts both gay and female soldiers. I would not avoid service to my country based on such - duty is more important than what objections I might have on their inclusion. I would hope Scouts who follow the Oath still feel a duty their country even when their country might do something that is not 100% to their approval. That is kind of what makes duty and being Brave relevant. If it was easy, we would not need an Oath or Law for it.

Yep, I still have the freedom of choice, at least for the present time.  I can quit my job.  It's my choice.  This is why I never worked for what I felt was an unethical or immoral institution.  I was once a minister in a "Christian" organization.  Once it abandoned it's moral compass, I left.  It was my choice.  The same dynamic apples to the BSA.

I do a lot of volunteering for the Red Cross.  They put it out there right up-front their position of helping other people at all times regardless of their cultural, religious, etc. backgrounds.  I know how it works and I find it okay.  They do not provide any moral compass for the work they do.  They just do relief work for anyone needing it.  I can live with that.   As soon as the organization re-defines "anyone".  I'm looking for another area to spend my volunteer hours and efforts.

8 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

That's not the problem scenario.  The problem is when the scout feels compelled to shake your hand because you offered yours, does so, then the scout  (or the parents or a concerned onlooker) decides later that you offering your hand created a hostile environment.   @David CO used the pendulum analogy.  We're a long way from a moderating center position.  

And so do defines the "moderating center position"?  If one adheres to the Scout Law, A Scout is Friendly, Courteous and Kind.  Offering one's hand as a gesture of congratulations and it is refused?  How does one go about redefining the Scout Law to accommodate local traditions?

It's a slippery slope we are on in light of today's PCisms.  It's getting to the point where everything is now under suspicion and what was once a cultural tradition is now a forbidden taboo.

1 hour ago, NJCubScouter said:

That's ridiculous.

Don't kids still use plastic knives to eat lunch in the cafeteria?  Is that a weapon too?

We had an incident in my locale recently of someone jamming a pen through someone else's hand.  Does that mean all pens, pencils, protractors, biology scalpels and probes, etc. are now outlawed and need to be digitized for on-line learning.  I hate to think of the day when my scouts show up at the bank for doing the paper work on a house closing and they have to put an X where there name is because they haven't been taught to sign their name with a pen.  Hey People, this is your Brave New World!  Your New Norm!  Times are changing and one has to adapt to it.  The day is soon upon us where one's Drill Sergeant of yesterday is more like a grandmother with milk and cookies compared to what's coming down the pike.

How are we now to do Scout Vespers around the campfire?  Is this yet another tradition down the drain?  

OA Tap out ceremony, air taps are now like air kisses?

Only one scout on a toboggan at a time?

How does one go through a life of Scouting without treating everyone like they have leprosy?

4 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Why can't BSA be both? Traditional to you and yours and modified for others?

Probably for the same reason those in the Middle East can't pull it off for thousands of years.  And the same reason the Christians can't pull it off for hundreds of years.  And the same reason political empires come and go on a regular basis.  And the same reason why maps of the world change before the ink dries.

It's called human nature and everyone feels more comfortable around like-minded/value people.  People go where they feel comfortable.

To this day I do not remember the name of my patrol, but I do remember the names of everyone in it.

I, too, have never heard of the advisability of washing anything the size of a sleeping bag in a mechanical device.  Bathtub soak, wash, rinse and the carefully dry.  The weight of the water absorbed by the down can cause damage to the bag itself.  Once the vast amount of water is removed, then one can gently finish off in a dryer with old tennis shoes or tennis balls to restore loft.

It would be nice to be able to teach the scouts facts about these things rather than knee-jerk reactions in the political arena.

It's unfortunate, but businesses go out of business every day.  Even businesses like General Motors who a mere 40 years ago was touted as "too big to fail," took a nose-dive here a few years back.  Brick and mortar business are closing right and left.  Kiosks are popping up all over the place replacing the need for high labor costs and automated manufacturing has been the new normal for over a century.

Cottage Industry hasn't been around on a large scale for a very long time.  Brick and mortar is next and who knows what will eventually replace digital shopping.

It doesn't say, but did Canfield's even have a website to sell and compete on-line?  All it takes is a computer, a phone and an office and one can be in the market moving product and making a profit.  That computer, phone and office can be someone's back bedroom, and from there take business from the anchor stores at the local dying mall.

The kindergarten child that falls and skins their knee won't get any help getting up.  They have to do it on their own, while the teacher stands there and cheers them on in their endeavor with kind words like, "Suck it up, Sonny, and head on down to the Nurse's office."

No teacher hugs.....

No pat on the back for doing a good job....

No handshake at graduation...

No helping a little kid get up on the bus.

With individual rights being foremost in today's culture, individual isolationism is close on it's heels.

Some teacher is going to accidentally brush up against some kid in the crowded hallway and be sued for inappropriate "touching."  It's going to happen, just a matter of when.

Local option in America traditionally means:

Trail Life/USA

Heritage Girls

Royal Rangers

Campfire Girls

Pioneers

etc.

And these choices don't have the branding, glamour and glitter that BSA has.

But then again, BSA doesn't have the branding, glamour and glitter of a whole ton of other highly subsidized youth programs it has set itself up to compete against.

I'm sorry, but that just isn't true. 

Your unit is local, everything else isn't. 

Camporees are not local. 

Summer camps are not local.

Jamborees are not local. 

HA bases are not local.

This misconception is tantamount to the old no-smoking sections in restaurants.  Someone lights up 20' away, everyone in the no-smoking section knew it  .

Unless some unit decides to be a BSA hermit and only go on non-scouting activities, this trite phase is not correct.

Let's at least be honest about it.  Only your local unit is local.

@swcline Welcome to the forum

With this kid, one might have had to take PTO the next morning.

At least in my neck of the woods, I have experienced how these things work.  Like I said, the Council deemed one of my previous troops as exemplary in it's program.  They rotated between BWCA, Sea Base and Philmont on a three year cycle.  They turned out 4-5 Eagles every year.  They recruited 20+ boys every year into the program.  They had at least 15 ASM's.  They selected the mixed-aged patrols and assigned the SPL and PL's on the basis of needing POR's.  The lost an average of 20+ boys every year keeping the number of boys in the troop around 40.  The annual calendar was exactly the same every year.  Basically they were an adult driven Eagle mill.  Eventually the SM was removed from that position.

As a UC for the past 10 years I have had the opportunity to visit units throughout the council.  The vast majority of the units follow this process and thus the need for frequent UC visits.  Problems abound.  The complaints from unit leadership does not vary from one unit to the other and are very much reflective of the issues identified on this forum.  I do not comment on threads that indicate smooth running operations, but do interject comments that have been helpful to the troops in my area when dealing with problems they face.  I can only assume that maybe those same comments might help others in other parts of the country.  If they are not helpful, feel free to ignore them.  Some of the units around here do just that.

Yet when the District UC wants to be my ASM to learn what I'm doing differently and why I don't seem to need much help, it just may be indicative that I have something to offer as an alternative within the program of the BSA.  I don't toot my horn unless asked to by a unit.  But the unit I went to after leaving the adult led program of my first troop, I was not asked by the parents to be the SM, nor was I asked by the CC/Committee to be the SM, I got a call from the PL of the one patrol of the struggling troop to come and be the SM.  Now, the boys of my current troop are young, they struggle, they have opportunity to try whatever they want for a program, they fail, they have no idea what an adult led program is.  And yet they keep coming back, week after week and get better inch by inch.

Their first experience of struggle came after the new boys came into the new troop as Webelos crossovers.  Yes, I have had WDL experience so I knew what they didn't know faced them.  5 months after crossing over they went to summer camp.  It was a no-mess hall camp.  Monday of that week, they were expected to make grilled cheese for lunch.  They were trained in fire-building, but of course they didn't pay attention and couldn't get the wood stove working.  My DUC/ASM was beside herself and wanted to go help them.  I said no, she couldn't do that.  I looked her directly in the eyes and said, cheese sandwiches are just as nourishing as grilled cheese sandwiches. She backed off in a huff, but by Friday, the boys were getting good as Dutch oven cooking and having a ball.

I make opportunities for the boys and observe and learn from them what they want and need out of scouting.  I merely pass those lessons I learned off to this forum.  I must admit, however, keeping one's mouth shut and watching the boys struggle through the life lessons of scouting is difficult at times.  As a SM, I find myself doing a balancing act between being a safety net and a cheerleader.  But for good or bad, it's always the boys' program, not mine.  They figure it out eventually and they are very proud of all their "wins".  Me?  I'm just proud of my boys.

9 hours ago, qwazse said:

So, flash cards .... but with batteries? 

Yep, it gets them ready for all the PowerPoint preso's they will encounter when they become scouters.

Unfortunately I don't think differing points of view from mine as derogatory, just different.  But I guess I just roll that way too.

http://www.boyscouttrail.com/webelos/boyscoutreqsaid.asp

@NJCubScouter

Here ya go.

4 hours ago, Col. Flagg said:

Wasn't there an Eagle Scout that had a pocket knife in the flat bed tool box of his pick-up truck who was suspended under a zero-tolerance rule?

Edit: Found the story. Silly rule, poorly applied.

It's how we teach our kids intolerance today.