Stosh

Really?  Do you know how many scout coffee mugs I have in my cupboard? 

Oh, wait a minute, that gives me an idea on how to clean out my cupboard.  Thanks for the suggestion.....

I love it when the requirements are designed to engage the over zealous SM and Helicopter parents.

Do a project to show one's leadership ability.  The adults work through the paperwork to make sure the boy did it correctly and then require all the boys in the troop to "help" with the project because otherwise half the boys won't show up.  Both management of the task at hand and the real leadership control of the project is done by adults so as to insure the candidates "success".  It's strange how each boy gets credit for one Eagle, but the adults take credit for many more.

The only help my adults and I provide for the Eagle candidates is a required signature.  Otherwise he sinks or swims on his own.  After all, it's HIS Eagle, not mine.  "Mr. Stosh, here's my project proposal do you want to read it?"  "Nope, where do I sign?"  Sounds kinda harsh, but in the end, the boy learns that I trust his judgment and attention to detail.  Never had a boy miss out on Eagle navigating the maze on his own.  Maybe that's why I have so many "mentor" pins.    No, I do not view the project requirement for Eagle as a teaching or learning process.  By the time he gets to that point in his scouting career, he should have already learned all the lessons necessary.  If not, he's not qualified.  If asked, I do provide pointers on doing an EBOR because the anxiety level is a bit higher than at a regular BOR. 

Or maybe, Getta Life.

Or..... my oldest daughter achieved Silver, went to college and is a stay at home mom.  My youngest daughter was valdictorian, got a full ride to a major university, dropped out after a year and a half and is a stay at home mom.  Both will home school their children.  Sometimes bling doesn't mean much.  Depends on what one feels is important.  I am pleased with their accomplishments, 3 great grandchildren!

Terry

47 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

You're not a chauvinist.   It's the comments along the lines of -- look at all the fat moms who can't go on hikes, and if a girl gets an Eagle, then the boys' Eagles are worthless,  and negative comments about divorced mothers that are signals of attitude problems.  People can be legitimately upset at national for changing the program without being sexist.  But there are many men who look down on women and girls overall and that's a problem.  They're going to have problems. 

Yet, if one were to look beyond the political myopism of the situation one would see the real problems.  Sure heavy-set women can't backpack well and so can't heavy-set men.  I haven't place a high premium on Eagle for many years regardless of who "earns" them.  Divorced mothers are looking for good role models for their boys and helicopter mom's are only interested in getting their sons to win the bling.  And yes, there are other, more important factors, than these to be upset about other than sexism.  Yes, ingrained social norms have been around since day one and other societies are worse than the next one.  And yes, there are going to be problems.  But the problems I see have nothing to do with sexism.  Having worked with co-ed groups, I see the world far differently and I have experienced DIFFERENT problems than what BSA is working on at the moment.  They are seeing the tip of the iceberg and are desperately trying to avoid a Titanic moment.  Well it's too late to avoid the problems because the ship's already floundering.   So now the focus is in how to save as many as possible.

As just one small example of what I mean.  Last Sunday at the scout meeting I was teaching the boys lashings.  One of the parents asked if a younger female sibling could sit in for the evening.  I said sure.  What I feared happened.  She was 9 years old and interested in scouting.  She sat quietly in the back and said nothing while the boys were being boys.  I explained the lashing and then the boys were to work at doing it.  I had enough equipment and invited the girl to participate.  Well, the only one that was paying attention was the girl.  It didn't take but a few minutes and she was teaching the boys who hadn't paid attention.  This is great for a co-ed group, but a disaster for an all-male activity.  I was unable to attend summer camp this past summer and at the last minute a second ASM stepped in to take my place.  At the last minute she had to bring along her grandaughter and the camp allowed it.  The #1 complaint from the boys was she "took over".  The maturity level of girls at this age has been proven over and over in multiple studies that they are at least 2 years more mature than boys of the same age.  This will in fact provide the total disappearance of Boy Scouts as we know it.  I have know this for years and it's not that I'm against co-ed scouting, I'm against the last vestige of a program designed to help young men to adulthood without the unfair advantage in maturity girls hold over boys.  I strongly suspect that once that advantage is mitigated in adulthood many of the resentments of younger years may be a cause of many of our sexist social concerns.  I don't know if that has anything to do with it, but after 45+ years of watching kids develop, it remains a strong suspicion for me.

Will gals earn the rank of Eagle legitimately?  Sure, but then listen to the older generations cast aspersions on it, especially those who never were able to earn it themselves.  This is unfortunate, but it's going to happen, it is already happening.  The reason I downplay the glorious achievement of Eagle is not because it some sort of competition one wins, but it is supposed to be something nice to hang on the wall along with one's high school diploma, and other achievements one has marked in life.  It's not the Holy Grail of scouting.

Boys that have come through my program and Eagled for some reason have always referred to me as Mr. Stosh.  Even if they turn 18 and are now in their 30's still call me Mr. Stosh.  I even have told them they can call me now that we are peers by my first name.  Inevitably they always say,  "No can do, you will always be Mr. Stosh to me."  Now, if that were able to be put on a certificate, I would hang that one on my wall.

All in all, the sad part of it all is the end of Scouting as I have lived it for my entire life.  The next generation will not feel that way, but then again, I'm not going to be around to worry about it either.

Unfortunately that doesn't hold true to course.  One does not need to earn the Webelos badge in order to get AOL.  To be fair that means one doesn't need to earn Life to become an Eagle.  Sure, Cubs receive awards, not rankings, but everyone knows that... right?  The first Helicopter Parent looking to get their daughter into Yale or Harvard isn't going to let a little technicality like that get in the way.

1 minute ago, MattR said:

Unless you're an Olympic gymnastics coach, or college football coach, or a swimming coach.

How come the forum doesn't have a pat on the butt emoji to pick from?

like zero-tolerance policies that skirt around due process, justice/fairness and common sense?  Blind dictatorial policies have never turned out well and we in a free nation have a Constitution to protect us from such over-zealous tyranny.

34 minutes ago, qwazse said:

And this is why all you all need to call your district commish in 2019 and sign up to be UC's for your district's new BSA4G troops.

Cross-reference the thread on quality control. It's in your hands or not at all.

The tough nut to crack will be the girl who has been working amicably as a first class scout (concept not the patch) all along -- leading and serving all the while, albeit unofficially, in a BSA troop. And it will probably be some erstwhile hardliner, who upon meeting such a scout, will be her staunchest advocate.

That's why I would prefer the membership requirement for BSA4G be something like "Be a girl born after January 1, 2008." (I.e., these troops start with crossovers who grow into the official program from there.) But, I suppose that poses its own can of worms.

Seriously, I am in a quandary right now if at my age, I want to invest that much time and energy into trying to fix BSA's agenda of being politically correct.  There are plenty of other co-ed programs that have been around for many years that have gone about the process in a more honest way, like saying they are co-ed right from the beginning.  Switching horses in the middle of the stream has been a historical mantra for years to avoid such negative results.

7 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Same as us, and my troop does that also, with the mother's pins.  I have never heard of this turning-kids-upside-down thing other than on the Internet.

Obviously you had a politically correct deprived childhood.  The rest of us had to endure the parental abuse of the notorious Bobcat Ceremony of Impending Death by Dropping.

And please explain the rationale behind the mother's pin being turned upside down.  More than anyone in the world mothers do more good turns daily than anyone could imagine.

I've never had this problem of getting out of a hammock.  At my age, I haven't figured out how to get in to begin with.

Is "turn"ing a new Cub upside down considered a good turn?

I've worked with hundreds if not thousands of youth in co-ed program and never felt that the gals were "less" and yet I am firmly against destroying a boy's program just for PL inclusiveness issues.  I would feel the same way if I was a GS/USA leader.

I stand corrected, insert Historian where I put in Bugler. 

Okay, it was 50+ years ago when they pinned the Bobcat pin on me.  I don't remember it, so it must not have traumatized me.  I do know I was tipped upside down only because I remember everyone else getting tipped.

On the other hand, it might have been so traumatic that my emotional preservation tactics blocked it from my memory.  I might be able to get into a hypnosis therapy session to find out for sure.  Otherwise I can't sue my parents or any of the offensive Scouters who are all probably dead and gone by now.

Is there a statute of limitation on this or do I have a legitimate case?

Hold a POR for 6 months, that's why it will take 6 months to complete.    Remember Librarian is a POR.  So is Bugler.  A quick trip to a MB Fair should be able to double down on the 21 MB's.  It just depends on how focused the Helicopter Parent is and whether the Scout will be able to handle the pressure.

43 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

Yes... that is the new normal.  Forget the aim to get Scouts to First Class, now EVERYONE will be an Eagle.  There will no doubt be a really neat trophy.

Like a participation trophy? maybe?

Yep, that's been my experience.

And compared to the price of new uniform pants, it's chump change to for over a few bucks for a new necker.

What BSA needs to do is have a special program for helicopter parents that allows their children the fast-track to Eagle.  I highly doubt it will deteriorate the bragging rights prestige of the Eagle anymore than it already has.  After all, they have done it to AOL, why not Eagle.  Correct me if I'm wrong... Sign up for "Boy" Scouts, do a "leadership project", jump through a few hoops, and VOILA Eagle rank in 6 months!  After all, no one really wants to spend a few months in the mail room before becoming CEO of an organization.  The world has changed, people, it's time we adapt to this new culture we live in.. we gptta be in step with what's new and modern... so I've been told many times on this forum.

I love the tag line that emphasizes that the girls can earn Eagle so as to emphasize that's the most important thing when it comes to the "older girls program".

One always has to "read the fine print".  The application is part of the test to see how vigilant the candidate is.  This is all part of the expectations to insure the Eagle rank is "earned" far beyond what would normally be some busy work paper work.  What used to be a worthwhile project where the boy could show some leadership expertise is now running into more of a master's degree in organizational management.  Earning the rank of Eagle Scout requires a lot of hoops to jump through, most of them fall into the realm of circus burning hoops, but that shouldn't frustrate a scout from doing his best to not show his frustration in an overly designed adult skilled, dreaded requirement.

Be careful with one's response to these comments, they are loaded with some sarcasm interspersed with a bit of truth.

I have always been an avid camper - even outside of scouting.  I put more nights in outside of scouts than I do with the boys.  I, too, am an avid reader, maybe not 300 books a year, but I read plenty.  Magazines with an agenda hold no interest with me.  I haven't paid for an subscription to any magazine in over 40 years.  The only thing that will get me to turn pages is the seed catalogs.  I get teaser magazines all the time because I am an outdoors-man, but they got immediately into the trash, NRA, Scouting, etc. never get read.  For the most part they are nothing more than advertising, even the articles that "advertise" activities.  I family camp all the time, even my grand-kids have sat around the campfire and roasted marshmallows, I don't need a magazine to tell me all the accolades about family camping.

So, take Scouter magazine with it's family agenda and without even opening the pages I know it's not the program I signed on with in BSA.  I don't need some magazine to convince me that family camping is the next best thing since sliced bread.  It isn't.  Maybe it will inspire some non-camper to go to Walmart and buy a tent and a sleeping bag, but I did that 60 years ago.  But I don't need to be told I need to buy a new nylon, free-standing, 3 season tent is any better than my military surplus canvas which is a lot cheaper and gets the job done.  I don't need a magazine to tell me how great it is to hike the Appalachian trail when there are plenty of trails where I am that isn't going to cost me an arm and a leg to enjoy.  I canoe, kayak, fish, hunt and camp for far less than what it takes to get the boys to summer camp.  If I had to pay to go, I would send my ASM's.

Now, if the Scouting magazine were to offer more than agenda articles, advertising for high priced gear, and something that would help me be better with my kids, then fine.  But I'm not seeing or hearing that about the publication.  Yes, the old Boys Life were good and over the years the older magazines did provide such things, but for the most part today they are more reminiscent of the coupon and opinion pages sections of the newspaper than something really helpful.

Rah, rah! Go Family Scouting! on glossy paper isn't even good material to line the bottom of the bird cage.  I'll pass, thanks but no thanks.

Aha!  Jimmy Hoffa was on an airplane... That's the only explanation.