gwd-scouter

Oh please. Don't we girls all wear diamond studs, rings on every finger, gold chains, nice leather pumps, and, of course, full hair and makeup? Back on topic tough. I did wear the yellow blouse when I was a Cub Leader. Never could find blue pants to fit right, so I wore a navy pair docker type pants in winter and or shorts in summer. It was a lot easier to get something similar since the pants did not have the same "cargo" type styling they have now. I even wore a navy blue "skort" from time to time. Yeah, I know, the uniform police can arrest me! I also had the tan shirt and green pants (again, the cargo type weren't around at that time) for when I was I performing District Committee stuff. Definately stood out in the crowd in that yellow blouse! And, I thought the yellow blouse was a better fit than the tan shirt. Now, as SM, I wear the regulation tan shirt and green cargo-style pants. Don't fit all that well and had to get the pants in a size larger than I normally wear, but it's only for one hour a week, right? Now that my cub days are over, my yellow blouse hangs in my closet as a fond reminder of all those bygone days.

I've been revieweing a lot of the very early posts. In 2003, someone posed the question: Are you a car camping troop, or a backpacking troop? Which do you prefer? Since it seems that none of the folks that answered that post are involved in the foum any longer, thought I'd ask again. Our troop has always been a car camping troop, with maybe one backpack trip a year. However, in the Scout's planning session last August they mentioned they'd like to do more backpacking, so we're going next month for first time in 2 years. What do you guys do?

Gee, was it something we said?

Administration says they were very carefully screened. Gives me a really warm fuzzy secure feeling.

I apologize in advance for the Long Post: Ah, fix the attendance problem. What an interesting statement. Just how do you do that? That's the question I was asking myself over a year ago. The Troop we are in has at various times been Troop method and Patrol method. About 8 years ago when the troop was just getting started the SM was new and eager, the ASMs and Committee were new and eager, and the Scouts were new and eager. Everyone learned and worked hard and Patrols were functioning with leaders, cheers, flags, names - the whole works. Cut to several years and several scoutmasters later. Troop had zero young Scouts, a couple who had Eagled out and quit, and a few remaining older Scouts. That's about the time my son and I joined around two years ago. The first few months after we joined I was Advancement Chair and really didn't pay much attention to the methods being used as I didn't go on campouts and didn't listen in throughout Scout meetings. But, got more involved when I noticed that campouts kept getting cancelled. Biggest reason - not enough leaders. Leaders who had sons that Eagled out weren't interested anymore. But, another reason was not enough attendance by the Scouts. Troop had more or less been turned into a social evening by the older Scouts who sat around talking about school, jobs, girls, etc. A few months after we joined, two more younger Scouts joined and they and my son were made a "patrol" and worked on their flag and patrol cheer. My son and one of the new Scouts were very enthusiastic about it, but they were essentially all alone. The other young Scout hung out with the older guys. At the same time, an older brother of one of those young Scouts transferred from another Troop. He was really a go getter, very involved in OA and seemed like just the shot in the arm our Troop needed. But, he got sucked into the apathy of the other older Scouts and soon he, like the others, only did anything or worked with the new guys when the SM told them to. No Troop Guide, SPL was never there. Most other PORs on paper only. No real jobs to do. After being in the Troop for about 4 months, the spring camporee came. Surprise, 7 Scouts were going. I went to help out since only the SM was going and ASM couldn't come till Saturday afternoon. SM did all the cooking for himself and the older guys. No one helped or even looked out after the younger scout patrol. Rained Friday night and guess what? Yep, younger Scouts sharing a leaky tent asked the older Scouts who were sitting around to help them get a new tent set up. They just ignored the request. SM finally put up a tent for them. And, I gotta say I was dismayed at the topics of conversation and language being used by those older scouts sitting around. What a horrible first night. When I left after the ASM arrived next morning, I had serious concerns about staying with this troop. So, at Troop Committee meeting I finally spoke up (having held back since I was the newbie and didn't want to make waves). The result, guess who was made SM? Yep, found out if I didn't like the way things were being done, they'd let me do it myself! So, I went to training, read everything I could find, and started to work our way back to the methods of scouting. What a long year it's been. Yes, we used the "troop method" during the year. Early on, we had to do whatever we could just to go camping every month. If that meant we only took 3 scouts, then they were the patrol. A couple of the "trouble makers" transferred to another troop just after I became SM. Got a couple of new guys during the year and our attendance began to pick up. We held troop elections and SPL, ASPL and PL were elected. These guys (I like to call them my legacy Scouts - holdovers from the "old" days) really resisted me when I told them I expected them to DO SOMETHING. But, slowly, eventually, with training, coaching, cajoling, prodding, etc. etc., they started to take control. Still, we only had one patrol on any campout and about half the time the SPL was usually whoever was the most senior scout on the trip. Now, a little more than one year later, we've formed 2 patrols of 5 boys each. One patrol of the older guys and a couple younger, the other mostly younger guys. We held a annual planning campout last August and have worked hard to follow through on their plans. I think they are getting to like the idea that they made the plans and the adults aren't changing them. So, because these are their plans, we are getting more participation. Last month we went on our first campout with more than one patrol. We had an SPL and two 3-man patrols each with a PL. Would it have been easier to just have one patrol of 6? Yep, probably. But we're a small troop and we have to start somewhere. They made their own menus, did their own shopping, cooked their own meals, cleanup up, packed their gear. They planned their activities - older scouts teaching the younger scouts (fire building, axe/knife handling and safety, and orienteering). SPL did a good job wandering between patrols, checking on their progress, helping PLs when asked. Boys still think to ask me first when they have a problem. I had a lot of satisfaction in saying "go ask your patrol leader" and then just sit and watch. Nothing was done efficiently. Nothing was done on my timetable. Nothing was done the way I would do it. But they were leading. They were working together. They were learning. And, THEY HAD FUN! Now, we are at about 90% participation at meetings and outings. We only have 11 Scouts, but they are a fantastic, enthusiastic and hard working 11. So, I guess my point is that I can certainly understand why some folks have to make "virtual" patrols from time to time. For a while, in our case anyway, it was a necessity. But, I can also say from my own admittedly limited experience, that when you get a group of boys together that know they are a unit and must rely on each other and work together, magic can happen. (This message has been edited by gwd-scouter)

Wow, who knew washing dishes could be a controversial topic? Anyway, pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is swilling?

Surfin - I have a certificate I could send you. We made it up for our Webelos Leader that was crossing over to Boy Scouts. He had been the den's leader since Tigers. If you send me your email, I'll be happy to send it to you and you can modify as you need.

Amy, Weldome to the Forum. I really enjoyed being a Webelos leader back in my day. Now a Scoutmaster, but I miss the cubs. This forum is a great place to get ideas and answers to questions.

From Advancement Policies and Procedures Manual (33088B) "The Boy Scout is tested. A Scout may be tested on rank requirements by his patrol leader, Scoutmaster, assistant Scoutmaster, a troop committee member, or a member of his troop. The Scoutmaster maintains a list of those qualified to give tests and pass candidates. The Scout's merit badge counselor teaches and tests on the requirements for merit badges." So, my impression is that if the SM approves, the PL can sign off on requirements. That is the way we do it in our troop. PLs, TG or another senior scout that may be teaching a particular skill, sign off whenever they test a scout on a requirement. Of course, as SM, I go over all the advancement requirements with a scout during his SM conference. That way, I can monitor how well the scout understands the skills he's learned and that the PLs or TG aren't just rubber stamping the requirements. So far, since we've instituted this over the last year, I've seen the PLs, TG, and older scouts really work hard at teaching and taking pride in saying "this scout knows what he's doing on XX requirement."

Hey Akela. Good for you in taking all the necessary training. You are correct in being cautious about how you approach the lack of training among other leaders in your Pack. Ruffles a lot of feathers when "the new guy" jumps in and says folks are doing it wrong. As the Pack Training Chairman you should encourage all the leaders to take their training and bring it up during committee meetings. It might help to make it a bit personal and tell them that their sons deserve well-trained leaders. I don't mean to suggest that during the meeting you call out by name those leaders that haven't taken training. But, perhaps a one-on-one approach might be in order. At the very least you could find out why they haven't taken training. As for inspiration, adult leader award applications can be found in the Cub Scout Leader Handbook (or at least they were when I was in Cubs). They all require taking the appropriate training depending on the leadership position, some length of tenure (1 or 2 years), and some additional service such as attending roundtables, PowWow or other District/Council events. Each award is represented by a square knot patch worn above the left pocket. Why not photocopy the award apps and hand them out to all the other leaders? Good luck and Welcome to the Wonderful World of Scouting!

mdkeplers. Congratulations to your son. What a smart, quick-thinking young man. It's a shame that so much time has passed since learning of his award and still not receiving it. I think his AOL ceremony would be a wonderful time for the presentation.

Hey Belinda, Just tack the patch across the top to the seam of the pocket flap. No need to sew all the way around. That way, your son can still unbutton the pocket and hang his progress toward rank. That's what I do with my son's OA pocket flaps (Boy Scouts) and it works out great. As for the summertime pack award, it is supposed to be pinned on the pocket flap centered over the button. So, I guess he'll have to forgo wearing it. However, without trying to set off the uniform police, Cubscouts want to wear all their awards and I personally don't see a thing wrong with it. They are little guys and do not understand nor care about the rules of proper uniforming. So, why not pin his summertime pack award just above the right pocket flap. If you do, hope you don't get too much "flap" about it.

Absolutely try to arrange to visit all the troops. I think doing it together as a den is the best way, but if schedules conflict scouts and their families can visit on their own. Set up the dates and times with the troops and give the schedules to each scout. As Lisabob says, they can then decide what and when they can attend. Keep in mind, Troops are not one size fits all. One troop's program plan may attract a couple of your scouts, while another troop's plans may be more appealing to the other boys. And, of course, their parents may ultimately make the decision for convenience if one troop is closer to home than another. Not that that's the way it should be, but it happens.

Hello from South Carolina. It's a very lively forum, Rodd. Welcome aboard.

I get the feeling it's less of a competition in our area and more of a "how dare you mess with OUR cubscouts." A couple of months ago, I contacted a couple of web II dens in our district asking if they'd like to schedule a visit to our troop and join us on a campout. Got a great big no thanks from the CMs and DLs saying that their webelos always went to such and such troop. Must admit, same was true while I was CM for the largest pack in our district. Webs II ALWAYS crossed over to the Troop (also largest in the district) that had the same CO and met at the same time. Seemed natural to me at the time. Before I was CM, I was DL for my oldest son. When time came for the den to cross over, I didn't know, nor did anyone ever mention to me, that we could or even should check out other troops. So, off they went to the biggest troop in town. Less than 2 years later, my son was miserable and wanted to quit scouts (all the other boys from his den had already quit). Not necessarily an indictment on the troop, but it does have a rather large drop out rate of new boys that aren't natural leaders or more emotionally mature for their age. We visited a couple of other troops and oldest son found a smaller troop that was a better fit for him. Few more years later, he made Eagle and continued to work with the troop till he left for college last year. Youngest son crossed over from the previously mentioned pack for which I was still CM. Both of us went off to the smaller troop. I've learned a lot the past 2 years being involved with a Troop. I had no idea before then how difficult it is to recruit boys to a troop when there are several other troops around that already have a history of a feeder pack. From what I see among the other troops in town, none has much of a relationship with their pack. One exception is the Catholic Church which has a very strong relationship between the Troop and Pack. The others seem to just assume they'll get the Webs without any effort. For instance, when I was CM for Pack xxx, our Troop xxx never did anything to help us out other than receive the Webs II at crossover. I asked them many times for Den Chiefs (not interested), help during campouts and other activites (not interested). They really didn't even want to invite the Webs II dens along on an outing. In fact, our roundtable meetings usually erupt whenever a cub leader mentions having Webs invited to camporees. With every few exceptions, our Boy Scout leaders DO NOT WANT cubscouts along on their camporess. So it goes. At least in our District, not so much competition as: if you're in pack xxx you go to troop xxx. Have had an idea for a while that maybe a District Webelos Transition Coordinator might be a new position to add to District Committee. Perhaps after I step down as SM in a few years, that might be something to pursue.

Question about the 3 pan method of washing up after cooking. Pan 1: hot soapy water Pan 2: hot clear water for rinsing Pan 3: here's the question. I've seen 2 different methods being used. 1) cold water with clorox, 2) hot boiling water (no clorox). Learned the cold water with clorox in the 3rd pan when I went to outdoor training. But, see other troops during district events that dip everything in a final rinse of plain boiling water. Any thoughts or suggestions as to which is correct, better, or does it matter. Thanks.

I thought I read somewhere in the rules of wearing the BSA uniform that it can't be worn at political rallys. Maybe I'm mistaken.

MaScout - your 15 years beats my 11. Started Cubs when oldest was in 1st grade. Was his den leader for 5 years. When he crossed over to Troop, signed on as CM for the Pack. One year later, youngest son joined as a Tiger and I remained CM for 5 more years 'till he crossed over to the Troop. Oldest now in college, youngest just finished 2nd year with the Troop. So, CS years + BS years = 13 years altogether (probably just a youngster compared to others on this forum). Hmm, let's see - how many hours would that be at 1 hour a week per 13 years worth of weeks? Ah, to tired to do the math.

Just reading Feb 20 edition of Newsweek. Perspectives section has a quote from Roethlisberger "I don't think I got in." - You know, in reference to that controversial (non)touchdown. Doesn't say where or to whom he said it. But, why would he say that after the game. Did he feel guilty about the call going their way when in his heart he knew he didn't make a touchdown? We'll never know, I guess.

John, Been in Scouting in my District for a long time and have never heard of a DE calling or visiting the CO unless it involved trying to organize a new unit. Maybe I just missed it when it happened, but I was CM through 6 recharters and now SM completing the 2nd recharter. NO DE visit to our CO. Of course, it could be that we keep changing DEs and they always seem to have to go to Texas for training during February (our recharter time). So maybe they've always been out of town and couldn't arrange those meetings. Yeah, right....

If I do the counting, will I get a patch?

Dan is right, ask the SM don't tell him - sorry I didn't type it correctly. Dan, you are also right in that all the old leadership in our troop eventually left so I really haven't had to change around any "that's the way we always did it" type leaders. Did have one former SM return last Feb. just after I took over as SM and I think he was sure that I would step down and turn over the job to him. But, the committee felt strongly that I stay in the job and so he said he was OK being ASM. He sure made things difficult. In July, after only 5 months, he left, causing a big scene as he went saying we weren't following the G2SS and other accusations. Sour grapes. I saw the biggest progress in our troop from that point on. Of course, the older scouts in the troop have also been less than receptive to the changes, especially when told they actually have to do something and show up to do something in their PORs. But, even they are coming around. Did we change around faster? No. I still see several more years of work ahead. It's been only a little more than a year and first steps toward progress are being seen. Still have to work on PLC meetings, individual patrol meetings haven't started yet because we just formed patrols and are having elections next week. But, the guys did have their first ever yearly planning meeting last August and so far have managed to carry out each month's outing. Still don't have weekly troop meeting plans yet as they are set up pretty much on the fly. So, much more road to travel. Bottom line I guess is that a troop can be changed from a "Cub Scout" Troop to a real boy led Boy Scout Troop. But it will take several years, you need the help of the other adults (or at least you need them to stop throwing up road blocks) and most importantly you need to get the boys to see that vision and work toward it. Your post mentions an ASM in the Troop that shares your ideas. Start with him. What about the parents of the Webelos that crossed over? Are they helping on the Committee? Your son should get the best Scouting experience he can and it sounds like you want that for him. Talk with your son and see how he feels. If your efforts to change this troop fall on deaf ears, perhaps it's time to find another troop.

Thanks for the kind words. Now, where's that comfy chair. Oops, can't get comfy yet, gotta finish that recharter. Yes, I know, probably should have someone on the committee doing that. One step at a time.

Wow, so many similarities to what our troop had become a little while back and what I faced when stepping up as SM 13 months ago. The only difference is that we didn't have ANY parents involved in any way other than the SM and one ASM. But, both their sons had reached Eagle the year before and dropped out so SM and ASM were just waiting for someone new to join and take their places. Big surprise for my husband and I that one year after our son joined the troop we find out all the adult leadership is leaving! Ah, water under the bridge. Back to your situation: Sue M makes a very good point. You mention your Webelos den of 7 is now a patrol of 4. That's a good place to start. From you description, you'll never be able to do anything about the older boys and parents. And, if they are all about to make Eagle, they won't be your problem for much longer. Talk to the SM and tell him you're going to be the ASM assigned to the new scout patrol (or whatever you call it). Concentrate on those younger guys and help them to learn to take control of their patrol. Nothing says a patrol has to do only what the troop plans. In fact, patrols are encouraged to go out on their own. With such young guys, it will take a lot of patience on your part and learning on their part - making mistakes along the way. But that's all part of the process. So go, have fun, do Boy Scout stuff and look toward a brighter future. Won't be easy and won't happen overnight, but it can happen.

Semper - that's the best laugh I've had today. Gives a whole new slant to the buddy system.