gcnphkr

We will be having our first Bugler in a couple of years. He is fairly excited. I think he will end up using his cornet although I hope he learns to use the troop bugle. He asks when calls he should learn (he knows reveille already) this is the list I gave him in order of utility (except Tattoo, which is one of the more useful, but also more difficult calls).

Assembly

First Call

Officer's Call

To the Colors (Which is played in place of the National Anthem when a band is not available)

Taps

Reveille

Tattoo

Mess Call

Retreat

So, what are other's preferences?

Well, I was already going to start visiting the regional office with brownies just to get to know them. You never know when you will need a NTP on short notice.

I suspected that this was a prank though. The permit doesn't require the unit leader's signature, only the tour leader's--fat chance that they would always be WB trained. Powder Horn is not the equivalent of Wood Badge. This requirement made the 7/1/09 date very suspect. No way they would shut down tour permits for most units with that short of notice. Now if it had said 1/1/11 (which is such a cool date that you have to believe it) to give people time to take the class and finish their tickets... Finally, requiring that all "adults" not just all "registered adults" be YP trained was way over the top.

Part of it may be just my surprise at only having about half as many as I expected being elected.

We just had our election. We have 57 registered in the troop. 46 were present, 41 cast ballots. Making 21 votes the threshold to be elected. We had 15 who stood for election. Only a few received the required number of votes. There were none who were elected by a wide margin. All in all, there were 10 who received between 19 and 23 votes and for the most part they would have been the ones I would have picked. It seems the method of voting tends to be biased towards the more popular and outgoing scouts, while the scouts that may be quieter and serve mostly within the patrol get left out because other scouts don't know them well enough to vote for them. I'd expect this to become more of a problem as the troop grows. Next year I expect about 24 to be eligible.

It seems to me that a better method would be to have a ballot with all the scouts listed and a yes and a no box by each. The scouts could then abstain on individual scouts that they don't know but still be able to vote for or against those that they do know. It doesn't seem right to effectively make a scout vote "No" for 14 scouts just because he wants to vote "Yes" for one and may not have an opinion on most of the others. The instructions in the adviser's guide imply that the scouts write the names of the scouts they are voting for, but we've provided a list for several years now. Would this additional change be too much? I don't know.

On the other hand. The case can be made that scouts worthy of the honor will be well known and therefore get the votes that they need.

You can suggest that they abstain. The election is based on the number of ballots cast.

Next year you might schedule your election prior to crossover. Most chapters are glad to do them earlier, the closer to camporee and summer camp the busier the election teams get. The only reasons to wait that I can think of are to hold out for an advancement or to get the chartered count over 50 so you can nominate 2 adults.

I apologize for being overly harsh. You hit some pet peeves and I reacted instead of responded.

So I guess the lesson that some of you wish to teach the boys is that it is okay to break a rule as long as you don't get caught, or at least if you don't get caught in the first hour.

You stated, "The boy probably had no clue" and that the parent said "that he didn't know they weren't supposed to be used". There was no intentional breaking of the rules here. If it had been caught on initial inspection is there any doubt that the scout would have corrected the problem by replacing the wheels? Not really. So who failed here? The inspectors did. Who got punished? The scout. So is this the lesson you are wanting to teach: Honest mistakes are punished if you are weak but allowed if you are in power? I doubt it, but that is exactly what you did.

You started off by asking "Did we over react? Should we have done something different? Considered something we didn't?" You might want to consider the purpose of the PWD. It is not about a lot of rules or the competition. It is about the scouts having fun and bonding with their parents (usually dad). Here is a father that shared with his son the wheels from his PWD car of 30 years ago. A car that he has likely been keeping in a shoebox waiting for this day. Here is a father and son that are actually participating in the PWD the way that it is intended. But because the rules are more important than the purpose you disqualified the scout.

Scouter760, I didn't say they have to or even should run the derby. But I can't imagine letting someone else put my car on the track. At the last PWD I was responsible for the scouts got their car from the pit and placed it on the track. Yes, it took longer but we still managed without any cars being dropped. Scouts tend to be very careful of cars they worked on. We had the old track set up outside where they did challenge matches after they had finished in their age group, no adults, no disputes but lots of fun.

Adults tend to add rules that are not needed and make it much more competitive than it should be. One reason why I prefer the Rain Gutter Regatta, at least the cubs still get to be active participants instead of bystanders.

We are thinking about these 12x12s: http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=524744

The come with two poles and at $40 the price is attractive.

They also have a 15x15 for $60. http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=193962

Ah, nothing gets people POed like the PWD.

JoeBob--Unless they've recently change the rules in the box, there is no rule #7. The rule you quote is some group's rule, not from the box. Rule #7 from the Cub Scout Leader How Too Book is "The car shall not ride on any kind of spring."

ghermanno--Make all the local rules you want, but don't confuse them with nation or official rules. Anyone racing needs to conform with the local rules, whatever they are and however silly they may be. But don't think that those rules will apply in another unit, district or council.

From the box:

Wheel bearings, washers, and bushings are prohibited. The car shall not ride on springs. Only official Cub Scout Grand Prix Pinewood Derby wheels and axles are permitted. Only dry lubricant is permitted. Details, such as steering wheel and driver are permissible as long as these details do not exceed the maximum length, width and weight specifications. The car must be free-wheeling, with no starting devices. Each car must pass inspection by the official inspection committee before it may compete. If, at registration, a car does not pass inspection, the owner will be informed of the reason for failure, and will be given time within the official weigh-in time period to make the adjustment. After final approval, cars will not be re-inspected unless the car is damaged in handling or in a race.

I believe the only change in those rules for over 30 years in the requirement for dry lube. Notice that PACK15NISSAN breaks the specifically stated rule: After final approval, cars will not be re-inspected unless the car is damaged in handling or in a race. It also appears that the cub was not given an opportunity to correct the error but was summarily disqualified. The scout followed the rules as stated in the box, he did not follow the rules the pack had in place. The inspectors had an opportunity to note the error during the initial inspection. It was an obvious thing which anyone looking at the car should have noticed. The scout could have made the correction at that time. Once it passed inspection the car was legal and it should not have been DQed.

I'm glad I'm not a boy in your pack. Gez! Make a car, have it inspected then have to sit back and watch the adults race. Where is the fun in that? Adults and their stupid rules, let the boys race! Let them put their car on the track. Let them fix it when it breaks. Let them get graphite or Teflon all over themselves. And let them use any BSA PWD wheels they want! It should not have been DQ at the end of the race. The wheels from 30 years ago are obviously different. They are solid, narrower, with a rounded bottom--how hard could it have been to notice? Someone, especially with the fun stealing, control freaks that your pack seems to have, should have noticed it long before then and given the boy a chance to correct the error. BSA wheels are like uniforms, once an official PWD wheel, always and official PWD wheel.

Sometimes I think adults shouldn't even be allowed on the race floor of the PWD. Boys would never have these kinds of issues. They've ruined baseball, PWD, the Patrol Method, what next?

grrrrrr!

okay, I feel better now.

Many of the things you mentioned are not the Cubmaster's responsibility but belong to the Pack Committee. A well run committee that provides the support the Cubmaster needs can make all the difference, and even a weak Cubmaster can do well with a good committee.

ARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!

Only when the local derby starts making their own rules do you have these problems.

When we took the car to the race and it went through the inspection it was disqualified because it had an elongated wheel base.

There is no official wheelbase! There is a minimum track width but the axels can be as close or as far apart as the scout desires as long as it does not exceed the maxium car length.

The machinery is computer operated. 90% of these types of axles and wheels are illegal as described by "Official BSA" rules and regulations that are used for the "Normal" type of Pinewood Derby races held for Cub Scouts.

They are perfectly legal based on the "Official BSA" rules. They may be illegal with your local rules but there is nothing in the "Official BSA" that says you cannot sand/file/grind/lath your axels to needles or your wheels to waffers. As long as they start as BSA wheels you can do anything you want to them.

Make whatever local rules you want. But don't claim that your rules are the "Official BSA" rules.

Kinda makes you wonder

Even with 100, attendance should not be a big deal. It takes about 5 minutes to do our troop of 60, much less time than we were spending for the PLs to do it. Even if the PLs (or Patrol Scribe) takes attendance, the troop scribe could collate the information.

But good PLC meeting minutes and if he also publishes the final version of the meeting plans are not trivial.

I'd forgotten about recording advancement progress. I'll need to find a way to include this.

if you really want to put a stop to cheating make a rule that only stock wheels may be used. That each scout has his wheels for weighing purposes and that they should do the basics for the wheels (not really much with the current wheels, unlike the brads from long ago). At check in the wheels are turned in, mixed and redistributed. This will pretty much make the race a level playing field.

How long do your elections take? I would hope not more that 15-20 minutes. Why not do one and then do the other?

The issue you have with having elections at a location other than the regular troop meeting is having quorum. Getting +50% of the scouts to go somewhere for an elections may be difficult. Out troop sends a election team to another troop who is coming to our meeting. The teams come to their regular meeting place, cast their votes then go to the other meeting place to conduct the election.

When I was a youth (33 years ago) the team went to the camporee, we would conduct elections for any troops that still needed them and then did the tap-out that night. And yes, we did it without any adults tagging along.

Rather than argue about how to get around this or the various rules regarding pointing firearms and each other, might it be more productive to write our council, regional and national powers that be and tell them why this is a bad idea? I know who to write at council and region, who do we write in Irving?

I'm taking the course in April, but I'm cheating by reading the syllabus before hand. I got the impression that the the course is intended to have 8 patrols of 6 each.

Incidental, the reason I went our to read the syllabus in the first place was because the course description's pre-course preparation instruction was so general that I went searching for more information.

From what I can tell it is intended for people with some experience and is not for those who have never taught before.

I'll try to remember to revisit this after the course.

I believe that the certification comes from the Registration Service. Check with your council Registrar, she will be the authority in your council.

I agree with OGE. Both can and are taught. I'll even throw in "making ethical decisions".

Of the three, scout-craft is much simpler to learn and to teach. Perhaps Mafaking is so hung up on this because anything more is beyond his skill set.

So has anyone ever known a Wolf?

I was a Raven when I was a youth. I guess ravens grow up to be Beavers...

I still am a Beaver

And a mean old Beaver too.

I've eaten me an eagle, a fox and bobwhite stew

I'm gettin' rather hungry,

And I don't know what to do.

So I'm goin' to catch a staffer if I can.

Back to dinner, flyin' pan,

I'm goin' to eat a staffer if I can!

(going back to waiting for Beavers to come round again)

Youth lead does not make it a democracy. If the original plan was a hike through, I assume decided by the PLC at the annual planning conference, then why allow a vote to change it in the first place?

On the other hand. You are allowing THREE scouts go alone on a day long strenuous hike? So if one scout is injured either he will be left alone or the scout going for help will be left alone.

GW: They developed an attitude of "we'll show 'em" and won most of the patrol competitions while remaining proud of his misfit status. Today, that could never happen.

Why could this not happen today?

Second weekend is coming up. Got most of it. But for some reason this isn't clicking. I'll send what I have to the TG tomorrow to see what he says.

I've been working on my ticket. I seem to be stuck on two items. Expressing my values and my vision. I'm just not sure what to do here.

For the values, the form makes it look like it should be a list of values. For me that would be liberty, loyalty and compassion. But that alone sounds odd and in need of explaining what each of those means to me in the context of scouting. There is additional place for notes regarding my values. Should I list my values in the one section and then explain them in the notes area?

Regarding the vision. Am I to write my vision for myself, my unit, both or something else entirely?

Does anyone know of a place that has examples? Seeing what others have done could help. Yes, I am asking my fellow Beavers for help with this as well.

Thank you.