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We bought Eureka Timberline 4 tents this year. They're bg enough to fit 3 kids comfortably (on mats) and 2 not quite as comfortably (on cots).

Yeah. It looks like cots are just too tall to really work with the sloped sides. They would end up needing to be pushed together in the middle. Still, most are on pads anyway so they would still work.

Yep. BW is right. Part of leadership is handling things when they no long go as planned. Time to change the plan. The idea of going to a metal shop teacher is great. Learning to shape and weld metal may be in your son's future. In any case, help him think it through, but you need to let him work it out.

Your bringing a lawyer in will not solve the problem. That just teaches him that parents will bail him out when things get a little difficult.

I was just curious what other troops are requiring. In the past, for registration, Boy's Life, and unit dues and fees we have been charging $65/year/scout. Because one of our income streams is drying up (corporate employee donations from a company that is down sizing) we have to increase this to $125. We have tried to keep this down through fund raisers but there has been little participation, mostly the scouts and parents who would be there anyway. This doesn't seem out of line to me, but I'm sure it will put a hurt on larger families. Maybe it will encourage more participation in the fund raisers once they see how it effects their wallets.

The oldest ones are at least 12 years old now.

That is good. The typical econo-tent is maybe good for 2 years, 3 if you are careful. Summer camps can be especially hard on tents. We camp a fair amount, they would have been used about 30 nights this year. The families may be spending more as it is. I found one place that is selling them low enough that even with the custom footprint it is under $200/tent.We'll see. The committee is going over next year's budget tonight and are already concerned about an increase in dues.

(Adults)(ours) have a tendency to want to sleep alone.

Ours do too. It is not that much of a problem except at Camporees. We always have a high adult turn out at them and they tend to show up with tents larger than my first apartment. The regular campers tend to have learned the benefits of ear plugs, are more willing to share and less willing to deal with a big tent.

Thanks again.

Look again. It is word for word what is in the TLT. The only thing in the TLT kit that is not in chapter 7 are the position cards.

They now have just the cards available. The TLT packet (#34306A) is no longer available.

BTW There is a PowerPoint presentation available as well.

Thank you Gunny. That tent would work. How many do you typically have using it? Four looks like it would be tight, but three would have plenty of room. I do like that it has straight side zippers, "D" shaped doors are where I've seen the zippers fail. It looks like it could be divided into 3~3 lbs. units for backpacking which is about right.

What do you do about adults?

At $250 it might be a hard sell as we would have $3-$4,000 up front cost. But spread the cost over 3 years and it works out to only an extra $22/scout/year.

As for cots. They have a number of advantages at summer camp. I doubt I would ban them on a weekend trip. If a scout wants to lug one a quarter mile, through brush and gully, who am I to stop him? That will take care of itself as we spread the scouts out.

I got home and checked. It is Chapter 7, "Training Youth Leaders", in the current SM Handbook.

POR descriptions are available online.

Hey, if I'm going to ask. I might as well ask for what I would prefer.

:-)

There are a number of Coleman tents that would work fine. Yes, zippers can be replaced as long as you have people that have the inclination to do so. At the moment I do, that may not always be the case. They are rarely repairable in the field.

The zipper thing is my objection. Too many jammed or broken zippers resulting in the loss of an otherwise serviceable tent. Too many scouts getting stabbed by a sprung safety-pin in a vain attempt to shut a door with a broken zipper. Now if they would just break at a more convenient time rather than in the middle of a dust/rain/hail/snow storm or locust plague and always, always at night.

My guess is that parents that send their munchkins out camping would prefer that they have zippers to keep all the creepy crawlies out. I more of an "embrace your inner critter" sort of guy.

Making their own tent is not a bad idea. I was thinking about a little less lofty goal like sewing a patch on a uniform, but that would work.

Why don't your Scouts have thier own backpacking 2-man tents? Leave the 'rent tent at home.

Some do. Although, even they tend to only bring them when they are backpacking. For many years now the troop has mostly done car camping (don't get me started). As scouts are moved further away from the comforts of the adults, I expect them to stop bringing the large tents. Institutional momentum is a hard thing to overcome.

Define your long Term Camping. Do you mean summer Camp?

Mostly summer camp, at least one of the camps we attend does not supply tents. We also hold a week long "trail to first class" camp at the beginning of June. Having the tents for this would be most helpful for. New scouts generally don't have a tent of their own, so they end up bringing their massive family tent. Issues abound.

If you really are looking for something that does not require floor, try Military Surplus.FONT>

Can go either way on the floor. It helps keep the rain out, and it is very nice to have in the snow, but I find for most camping it is added weight and something else to put a hole into. Shelter-halves would work for most campouts, they would get old using them for a week.There are some dome tents that would work, why they have to all use zippers is a mystery to me.

Not much to it. If I remember correctly the TLT can be found in the Scoutmaster Handbook. I think chapter 9 or 10. You use chapters 3 & 4 of the Scoutmaster Handbook for parts of the course. About the only thing extra in the packet is the POR description cards. It is enough let the scouts know their basic function in the troop. But do not expect scouts to come away knowing how to be a Patrol Leader.

Yes, they should be able to use the skills they learned in T-2-1. They use them on campouts, games, SOR and teaching younger scouts.

Some take more effort than others. First aid does not happen on it's own (hopefully at least). But make a contest out of it and they will use it.

Next month the troop is having a "Survivor" campout. The patrols will start out with their sleeping bags and water bottle. They will acquire things like food, fire and shelter during the course of the weekend. Periodically scouts will be "injured" and will need to be correctly treated. Most of the outdoor skills will be a part of the game.

Currently our troop has the scouts bring their own tents. This works most of the time but does cause a few issues. Camporees as tough trying to fit a bunch of huge cabin tents. A tent gets damaged and parents get upset. Tent envy, etc. Of course having troop tents has it's own set of challenges. Where to store 20 or 30 tents for starters. We got some tents a year and a half ago that were given to us. But they had problems. Only 6x6, they would leak in the rain, no ventilation. The scouts didn't want to use them, much less adults. The ideal tent would be about 8 x 8. Big enough for two cots and gear for a long term camp, but not so big that it it couldn't be split up and carried by two of three scouts on a back packing trip. I'm not a fan of zippers in tents and would prefer ties or Velcro closures. Floors could be optional.

If I could find a Baker tent in nylon.

Does anyone have suggestions?

We had a multi-district Camporee/Webeloree this weekend. About 1200 scouts and scouters. The troop had a fairly good turnout, about half of the troop mostly younger scouts. We just went to have fun. The space was tight with patrols right on top of each other. We build a barrier of tables and supplies between the scouts and the adults just to enforce some separation. The adults were really good about not interfering with the scouts. I would visit the patrols during meals just to see how things were going and visited the SPL a few times during the day. He and his assistants spent a good part of the day planning the next campout and running our activity. At one point I took most of the adults into town to Tastee Freeze because it was hot and there wasn't really anything for us to do. (Sorry, John. I'd have taken you too if I had found you). A couple of patrols placed in an event or two and a first year patrol did a skit at campfire. Overall I was very pleased with them.

I was way in the back talking to an MC when one of my ASMs poked me in the rib and told me I had to go down front. We had won the Spirit Award for the Boy Scouts. You could have knocked me over with a feather. Teach the scouts what to do, let them go and they will find a way to surprise you.

We have one scout whose birthday is 87 days after his EBOR. He would like the palm for his academy application. Sad that he did not finish his Eagle earlier.

From the online Guide to Safe Scouting:

Pointing any type of firearm or simulated firearm at any individual is unauthorized. Scout units may plan or participate in paintball, laser tag or similar events where participants shoot at targets that are neither living nor human representations. Units with Council approval may participate in formally organized historical reenactment events, where firearms are used and intentionally aimed over the heads of the reenactment participants. The use of paintball guns, laser guns or similar devices may be utilized in target shooting events with Council approval and following the Sweet 16 of BSA safety. Council approval means the approval of the Scout Executive or his designee on a tour permit specifically outlining details of the event.

This is a change from the print version which contains no provision for allowing laser tag.As played in most commercial laser tag facilities, laser tag would still be a prohibited activity.There is no prohibition against a boy calling up a bunch of his friends to go play laser tag. But it is not a scouting activity.

John,

If it makes you feel better, I've never wondered what you wear under your kilt.

The national average for Eagale Scouts is 13.7 years old (maybe 13.3).

I suspect that is skewed by LDS units. I'd be interested in the average of just traditional troops.

Looking back over the troop's Eagles from the last 9 years.

1 was 134 were 147 were 157 were 1629 were 17 (23 at or near their birthday)

Of the ones I know (I joined the troop 4.5 years ago)  the ones who earned their Eagles when they were 15 tended to be the best with solid leadership and character. There are exceptions in the older group and some of the younger Eagles have grow in this area. But overall I'd have to consider 15 the sweet spot. Younger scouts tend to think they are owed leadership positions and that they don't have to listen to leaders. Those that don't earn it by early 16 typically are marginally active until their parents start putting the pressure on about 17.5 and then they are around just enough to get Merit Badges signed off and recruit workers for their project.

So, cookiemonster, I think your son is just about right. Although, there is a difference between having a position and being a leader. There is no way for us to know, but experience tells me that those with many merit badges have not been taking the time to develop skills in working with peers, and could have been working on merit badges to avoid this.

I'd been with the troop for about two years before anyone even built a fire on a camp out. Fires for requirements had been built in backyards. In part this was because of fire restrictions, but I think mostly because using a stove is easier. No gathering of wood, making kindling, waiting around while the bonfire that they invariably build gets small enough to cook with or goes out, no putting it out or cleaning it up.

People do stupid things around fires. I'm sure that there are far more burns from fires, but I'd expect them to be less serious. But then, you fall in a fire you are going to be bad off. I've not found any comparative studied on the safety of the various methods.

I agree that 10c is stupid and 3 would be near impossible here in Arizona.

Stoves are nearly an essential on back country trips. I prefer compressed gas, but I know others that swear by white gas. If I was going to a cold camp it would be white gas for sure.

We just had our semiannual TLT. As SM I've conducted the last three with increasing scout involvement. This time the SPL and both ASPLs either attended or staffed NYLT. So, I had them conduct the course. All I was going to do was express my vision for the troop. I ended up having a conflict and was not able to attend. While there were a few adult leaders there to pay for the pizza and help out if needed, they were mostly on their own. The reports I've received are that they did a good job. They read too much from the material, but putting away that crutch is hard for first time presenters. I heard the best thing was the new leaders saw that scouts really can lead without the SM being there to micromanage.

I'm looking forward to next week when they begin their Patrol Leader Training series.

It is always nice to check the G2SS:

Chemical Fuels

Knowledgeable adult supervision must be provided when Scouts are involved in the storage of chemical fuels, the handling of chemical fuels in the filling of stoves or lanterns, or the lighting of chemical fuels. The use of liquid fuels for starting any type of fire is prohibited.

Guidelines for Safely Using Chemical Stoves and Lanterns

Use compressed- or liquid-gas stoves or lanterns only with knowledgeable adult supervision and in Scout facilities only where and when permitted.

Operate and maintain according to manufacturer's instructions included with the stove or lantern.

Both gasoline and kerosene shall be kept in well-marked, approved containers (never in a glass container) and stored in a ventilated, locked box at a safe distance (a minimum of 20 feet) from buildings and tents. Keep all chemical fuel containers away from hot stoves and campfires, and store below 100 degrees (F).

Let hot stoves and lanterns cool before changing cylinders of compressed gases or refilling from containers of liquid gas.

Refill liquid-gas stoves and lanterns a safe distance from any flames, including other stoves, campfires, and personal smoking substances. A commercial camp stove fuel should be used for safety and performance. Pour through a filter funnel. Recap both the device and the fuel container before igniting.

Never fuel a stove, heater, or lantern inside a cabin; always do this outdoors. Do not operate a stove, lantern, or charcoal grill in an unventilated structure. Provide at least two ventilation openings, one high and one low, to provide oxygen and exhaust for lethal gases. Never fuel (example: all liquid fuels, charcoal. etc.), ignite, or operate a stove, heater, or lantern in a tent.

Place the stove on a level, secure surface before operating. On snow, place insulated support under the stove to prevent melting and tipping.

Periodically check fittings on compressed-gas stoves and on pressurized liquid-gas stoves for leakage, using soap solution before lighting.

To avoid possible fires, locate gas tanks, stoves, etc., below any tents since heavy leakage of gas will flow downhill the same as water.

When lighting a stove, keep fuel containers and extra cannisters well away. Do not hover over the stove when lighting it. Keep your head and body to one side. Open the stove valve quickly for two full turns and light carefully, with head, fingers, and hands to the side of the burner. Then adjust down.

Do not leave a lighted stove or lantern unattended.

Do not overload the stovetop with heavy pots or large frying pans. If pots over 2 quarts are necessary, set up a separate grill with legs to hold the pot, and place the stove under the grill. Bring empty fuel containers home for disposal.

Do not place in or near fires. Empty fuel containers will explode if heated and should never be put in fireplaces or with burnable trash.

References: Fieldbook, No. 33104, and Health and Safety Guide, No. 34415

From this we can see that either type of fuel can be prohibited in Scout facilities. Neither can be used without adult supervision. Unless "adult supervision" is similar to "active participation", both fuels would have limited use in patrol camping.

As for which is safer. They both can be dangerous. Tanks and canisters are bombs waiting to go off, values stick, outlets melt, leaks occur and regulators fail. Wood and charcoal (Note that lighter fluid is prohibited. Use a chimney and a bit of newspaper instead) fires are generally safer as long as proper precautions are used.

[Donning fire suit in preparation for the coming flames]

A Scout is Trustworthy. I would think that this would apply to scouters as well. Why would a scouter want to wear a knot that he never earned? I suppose there are new adults, or parents who think, "Gee, this red, white and blue doohickey would sure look good on a uniform". But that has to be rare. Showing proof should not be necessary. Anyone who wants to get a knot for some nefarious reason would be able to provide a wallet card without much effort at all.(This message has been edited by jet526)

We have a committee member who coordinates the BORs. He is told a scout is ready and makes sure that we have enough people available for the number of boards that are needed. After the BOR the scout comes to me and I sign his advancement application. He returns that with his handbook to his board chair who then submits them to the Advancement Chair. The AC then records the advancement in Troopmaster along with any requirement completion dates that have not already been logged. He then submits the paperwork to council.

There is no set method for any of this. Go with what works for your unit.

Thanks again.

The older scouts are really wanting to do whitewater this summer so they have opted for Rocky Mountain High Adventure Base. We may send a contingent to San Isabel of the younger scouts, it will depend on how many parents are willing to commit to sending their scouts.