fred8033

The only reason I suggest a camps with regular volunteer led activities open to both scout patrols and lone scouts (aka family scouting) is that times have changes. Many parents won't back away from their kids and recognize kids need to solve their own issues. So the question then becomes, is there a way we can show value to those scouts where the parents won't back away from their kids? Maybe the camp master could setup a time where the camp master would be willing to observe and sign-off on seeing a youth setup a tent and understand what is needed. Maybe, another youth could cook dinner using dutch ovens and a skilled volunteer effectively could sign off on some of the skill requirements. My preference is patrol based and continually mentoring the adults to back off. But the outdoors is key and even without the patrol, youth can learn skills, self-reliance and that they can deal with and survive hardships more than they'd ever believe. BP created something great, but times change and programs evolve.

As scouts should have boating, shooting sports, hikes, etc... camps should promote a long list of prefered adult activities ... read a book, take a nap, clean your car, perform a camp service project like paint a building, etc. Effectively all activities that keep them far more than arms length away from the scouts.

You should lock all these threads. The bankruptcy is just bringing out the worst in everyone and just breading anger. Block all commentaries and only allow posting ofew newspaper articles. Heck, even then I'm sure both sides can find supportive newspaper articles.

I never saw the IVF file on your unit. So, I can only speak in generalities. But it's awareness is very much different than approval or support. Often SEs can't do anything until incidents happen. And the incidents are relative to the times. Drinking and porn were not automatic ejections back then and definitely don't have the same legal consequences as now. My point is BSA had at any time a million leaders (volunteer and paid). The huge vast majority were righteous upstanding people. I'm not willing to brand BSA or all the good it did based on the interpretation of select incidents.

That's been happening for many years. The latest round after sharing with 80,000+ claimants will get pennies compared to some of the earlier lawsuits. So it can be. Business partners have a right to opt in and out depending on their situation. It's how legal rights work.

If the right laws were in place ... if the right education and training was in place ... there was no way this should have been dropped once the police report happened. You say I'm dumping BSA liability. I'd say you are misbranding BSA as a self-interested evil doer. BSA was filled with millions and millions of volunteer and paid professions who were 100% focused on doing right by the youth. When things fell below the line, it was the aberration and not the norm. The situation sounds exactly like a product of the times. But you are right in one way. I do view the IVF as an effort to prevent abuse and was better than many organizations at the time.

I did not want details. I was just curious how far the police went. Interviews? a real report being filed? Anyone arrested? etc, etc. If police were pulled in, the police are working with the victims and it's outside scouting control. I'm betting it was dropped for the same many reasons many cases were dropped. Not taking it seriously enough. Right criminal laws not yet in place. People not understanding nature of abuse. People satisfied by the person quitting. People not wanting their family in the center of attention and being labeled victims. etc, etc. ... Once police were contacted, I suspect it was handled the same as if it was a church, a school or any other civic organization. ... In those days, the prosecutions were not there.

A key point is deep pockets. Having each LC handle their own breaks up the incentive of deep pockets. Let the cases be handled on their merits and even be grouped at the council level. But the national scale to combine it all together is just too vast and not controllable. If I was a LC SE, I'd 100% consider this strategy. Being lumped in together in one massive negotiation escalates the issues beyond control. We are not supposed to raise the fees issue here, but the others are arguing about BSA not negotiating in good faith. That's wrong too. This is a legal case at this point with legal strategy. If LCs go on their own, they have less deep pockets that pull national attention. Some councils will continue with liabilities because of SOL extensions or depth of problem, but many councils can continue and find their own path.

With today's challenges (liabilities, YPT, charter org, family time, etc), is there a possibility to refocus scouting around the council camps? Camps offering weekend skills training ... weekend advancement testing and sign-off ... Camps offering monthly adventure opportunities ... I'm sure you could establish a program that doesn't require a huge paid staff. Instead, leverage camp masters and skilled volunteers to teach and test. Leverage "family scouting" to provide the YPT. Think of it as a state park with resources, skills instruction and advancement. Where I've donated hours to my local unit, I'd be willing to camp once a month to teach shooting sports ... or cooking ... or fires ... or knife safety ... or tent setup. etc, etc, etc. It could serve lone-scouts or family scouting ... AND PERHAPS ... patrols. The cub dens could continue but mature and grow into independent patrols where the adults are pulled more and more out until the patrols work and function on their own. ... Patrols truely being the fundamental unit of scouting. Just a thought. We have such great camps. It seems we could leverage them more.

Wow. Excluding the world pandemic, many concils are not in that bad of shape. Yes membership drops, but not as bad as it seemed. Perhaps, it is in the best interest of councils to not donate out of the larger BSA bankruptcy and deal with cases as they come. Some states don't have look backs. Some councils have fewer cases. Some councils with larger liabilies already have those liabilities. The best interest of councils to stay 100% grounded in being their own separate legal entities. Let BSA resolve it's own bankruptcy. The councils should continue to focus on serving youth. If and when BSA comes out of bankruptcy, the councils can repartner with national.

Perhaps I'm not understanding the question. Lots out there. https://www.boyscouttrail.com/boy-scouts/boy-scout-ceremonies.asp http://scoutmaster.org/rank_ceremonies_final.pdf https://www.boyscouttrail.com/ceremony_search.asp http://usscouts.org/usscouts/ceremony/bsarcer.asp https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/ceremonies.pdf Lots out there... Plus here are my words of advice. Avoid native American themed ceremonies. Times have changed. Not everyone will be understanding. Create your own tradition ... advancing a patch on an advancement board ... scouts telling stories ... ask their most helpful leader (youth or adult) to pin the advancement rank ... lighting a candle on an advancement tree ... One word. Food. Our troop rotation was four COHs a year. COH #1 (Jan/Feb/Mar) was family pot luck. COH #2 (Apr/May/Jun) was troop grills meat and families bring sides. COH #3 (Jul/Aug/Sep ... after summer camp) was bring your own. COH #4 (Oct/Nov/Dec) was anothr family pot luck. ... And then we had a December pizza party (not a COH). ... LOL ... our scouts ate well. As for "21st century" ... at some time, old comes back in style again.

I've seen "deleted" discussed in the past. From an old registrar, it was reflecting how they tracked registered leaders. Deleted was not hiding. It was removing the registration.

CSA ?? What did the police report say? It's common for people to quickly resign after an ugly incident ... especially where they have done wrong. It's the only thing they can control. The rest is out of their hands. Plus, they often have magical thinking that they can avoid repercussions if they leave. ... I'm sure many times they did ... So, I would not be surprised if the resignation happened days or even weeks before the other dates. Deciding to come forward takes time. Investigations take time. There was no email or texting back then. It was all hard-wired phone and typed paper. The biggest delay often is people have to decide whether to submit a police report. Police reports themselves have to be put together. There were no mandatory reports in any field back then. I would not be surprised if the sequence was: --> abuse --> discovery --> confrontation --> resignation --> complains to leaders (unit, council, charter org) --> police reports. Things could take days or weeks. The IVF entry you describe sounds SADLY very common. I'd also ask ... why did the police not continue. Once it's in police hands, it's beyond unit / council / charter org control. It's always been that way. Why did the police not pursue it? It sounds like they had the name of the victim and his family.

I absolutely agree. ... but even further ... in addition to requiring mandatory reporting from all youth serving organizations ... Federal government should also spin-up an extension/branch of the FBI that would host an intake point for abuse complaints from all sources. Then based on location and other categories, it could be routed to the correct local authorities, city / state police. In addition, schools, unversities, etc could be notified too. FBI would not need to investigate. Rather, it would route and report patterns and statistics.

I'd love to see your perception of the Lion and Tiger program compared to what you experienced or remember as a youth. Many of us argue that cubs is now starting too soon and parents are burning out before their kids cross into troops ... where the big development and value happens ... independence, leadership, etc. ... I know it won't happen, but I crave for cub scouts to start again at 2nd grade or so. I'd love to see a separate thread on your experiences ... versus those of us who have hashed out the discussion from the adult leader perspective.

December 2020 ... airlines also saw a fraction of the flyers. We should probably close half the airports too. Probably don't need as many roads either ... major downtowns have not had the business people ... probably reduce the investments in downtowns ... but ya know ... there was a pandemic ... people not meeting face-to-face ... BSA also has been fighting the worst of all storms for 20 years. BSA's big failure was not finding a safe course and it has lost a generation of youth. Dale vs BSA. Membership battles (gender, faith, orientation). Rehashing 50 years of abuse scandals. That storm can end with exiting bankruptcy. That's the whole reason bankruptcy exists: to give businesses a clean slate. If BSA can get past this bankruptcy, scouting will make a comeback. It might be 10 or 20 years out, but it will comeback ... if done right. The first thing is it needs to get past the bankruptcy and all the political messes. UK scouting crashed and came back. BSA's can too. Kids and parents crave outdoor experiences. The local council will need their camps. Ideally, Philmont and the high adventure bases will continue to exist. If not, expect national parks to be flooded with scout units. Troop XXX will reserve sites 39, 40, 41, 42 and 43 and the XXX state park or national park / forest. Our troop has done it repeatedly. Imagine if it was the only option for scouting youth.

I hugely disagree with that statement. Especially the generation that were raised indoors with video games and cable tv crave outdoor experiences and skills for their kids. It's a phenomenon very close to BP's original purpose of introducing city kids to woodcraft skills. Kids too love new experiences: hiking, climbing, canoeing, being outside in a torrential downpour. Outdoors also teaches conservation, simplicity and ecology. The newest parents demand that. Outdoors is not the issue. That never gets old. Fire. Knives. Bow and arrows. It's the paramiltary appearance of scouting that has definitely fallen out of style. From the outside, scouting can look creepy and anacronistic: march, salaute, military like uniforms, etc. Those deeply involved know that scouting is much more about the outdoors, ecology, etc. But from the outside, scouting can look a bit creepy.

I often think about what the law was back when these cases happened. Would the same conclusion have been reached? Did the BSA see themselves as "operating" the troop? Or did they see COs as operating the troop and BSA providing a program structure? Like a franchise model. Having the law as it exists now, BSA would have done better to structure itself as an intellectual licensing business offering a program. Heck, I'm sure many people thought that is exactly what they were doing and had no idea they were taking "ownership" of so much or ever conceived they had the responsibilities bigger than all the others that signed. Heck, the charter org representative signs adult leader applications where the references of the individual are listed. That charter org rep is much more close to the volunteers than any council or national person. I've never heard a charter org rep call the references. Was BSA originally legally negligent? I'm betting if you asked a 1978 jury judged a 1978 incident, you'd find few liability awards and many would have summary judgement ending the case.

Only time will heal these wounds. Only getting outdoors sitting under a tarp during a downpour will wash the pain. Many times it's the kids of the extremely dedicated adults who get affected the most. They see the damage, the cost, the pain, the frustration. They may be wisely saying they don't want to repeat that. I really believe scouting works best when it's kept simple. Get outside and go for a hike. Light a camp fire and cook a meal. Overly focusing on the ideal way of running scouting damages the program. It's fun and useful to think about the ideal scouting program, but when it comes to working with others and working with the scouts, be like Nike. Just do it. I wish you the best. Be there for your son. Create good memories. Leave the past in the past.

Absolutely agree. Which points of law will be emphasized? Which will yield a conclusion or just more litigation? How is the court leaning to affect whether law is interpreted to reach a desired conclusion or applied to find the conclusion?

It makes sense though. Philmont, Seabase and Northern Tier offer experiences scouters can get elsewhere. Many of Philmont's outposts can be found at summer camps or elsewhere. All the hiking, canoeing and other activities can be found elsewhere too. BUT ... the Summit is an identify for BSA. A gathering spot. An event venue. Tens of thousands of scouts can gather. A unique property. Plus, it's the only high-adventure base on the east coast within reasonable drive of large population centers. It's a huge asset. A hundred years from now it could eclipse Philmont as a BSA brand-name property.

Agree. Your reasoning is on target. Simple exit with a huge paycheck. Deep pockets drive these cases. Often the best way to protect yourself from such cases is to not have assets. Litigants want a conclusion and cash; not some some end-date years in the future and a promise of a check five or ten years out. I'm sure many would settle for X if 2X means ten more years, lots of additional cost and continued risk gambling the payout. Imaginge the legal and court costs to liquidate council assets? Imagine the suits about disputing clear proper titles? This forum itself has shared multiple examples of "Friends of Xamp XXXX" that have sued or theatened suit. Examples of family members of the original donor trying to reclaim assets protected assets.

Statue of limitations is a confusing topic and seems extremely pliable to the point we can quesiton if limitations really exist. I fear the Illinois case as it's reasoning effectively eliminates statue of limitations in many cases. For BSA, Illinois elimiated it because of BSA's special relationship installing morals. What about those of churches that exist to instill morals also? What about those of schools that exist to instill reasoning and knowledge? What about medical who's special relationship is to lookout for the health and wellfare of the patient? What about police ... What about employers who's "special relationship" is as a source of money for people to buy food, house themselves, etc? ... I know many people who sweat losing their job and might hush up many things. What about a family member? There is no more special relationship. What about landlords? That's a pretty special relationship. Seems statues of limitations might only exist when you don't interact with other people.

Incompetence or strategy. Not really sure which.

Where you'd say he has no right to call out wrong when he earned his money that way, I'd say people don't have the right to represent themselves as in it to help victims when they are billing $1000 per hour. Those invoices are prima facia evidence that there's a lot of people in this to get rich. Not everyone. But definitely many. Or helping BSA when billing $1000 per hour. Sorry, you're doing it because you can bill $1000 per hour. I suspect by the end of this, both BSA and plaintiffs attorneys will have charged massive amounts. I'm not sure who will have charged more by the time this is history.