fred8033

@johnsch322 @CynicalScouter ... I really appreciate the last several posts. Kudos and thank you for the thought and time you put into it. I learned alot.

... thought I had commented ... This is why I could see the LC / insurance settlement being more difficult. LC/insurance can be protected if they participate. But there will probably still a channel for existing and new parties to sue even after the settlement. I'll be extremely interested to learn if the US trustee was right that such settlements might not even be legal.

Perhaps I'm forgetting some previous answer. This overlaps with how LCs can settle. I don't understand it. BSA can settle because they are going thru bankruptcy and that ends past liabilities (usually). But LCs and insurance companies are not going bankrupt. There is no class action. So, I'm really not sure how insurance companies (or LCs) can settle. What prevents a state AG or a victim or a victim claim group suing in a state changes SOLs (first time or a second time SOL change). ... Does this need to be first certified on a larger class action basis? It's probably already been said a few times in these threads. I am having trouble following how the case might unfold ... beyond it's a huge mess.

BSA has to hand over evidence. Physical and computer files. BUT, who does the leg work when the data is incomplete? Who hunts for yet more evidence? That seems to be on the side driving the lawsuit. So if the data is incomplete, I really can't blame BSA for that. Most organizations probably have poor membership records from 10, 20 years ago. Definitely from 40 years ago.

Me too. I have no magical hat either. BUT, it seems like we are in for some type of mapping / tracking of insurer paid versus victim was in which org and when. Same reasoning as property sales from a LC would get allocated to a specific set of scouts that was victimized from that area and not for all 84,000 scouts in the case. ... Some policies will have limits. Some won't have umbrella coverage for these cases. I'm sure will be pooled as similar coverage. Is the real question ... is there one or two major insurers for this whole thing? Is it really just Chubb and (???) for most of BSA and the LCs? Or are there other insurers involved. Are there different COIs involved? The 1970 COI has no limit versus 1980s has a limit per case and the 1990s has a overall limit per policy? It seems like a mess to litigate.

I've tried and deleted my writing multiple times. I'm trying to ask how the insurance portion will go. I just don't think it will be simple at all. The BSA bankruptcy may be the easy part compared to the insurance case. Seriously, is there a projected insurance path? Settlement (if even possible to settle) ... or will it be a gut-wrenching case-by-case battle over years. For 84,000 cases. Prove the right council / CO. Apply the right state laws based on the time. Finding / proving the insurance company. Finding / applying the COI details. Is there even a way to get 30 year old COIs? Or even just tracking down who insured who 30 years ago? And then, who re-insured who? ... Was the incident already paid? Blocked by liability limits? Liability coverage not provided? ... State XX had / has different insurnace laws. So ... Settlement? Insurance funding a trust. Claims from the trust blocking future claims? Even that is a logistical nightmare to apply who's insurance company company pays who. And, can insurance companies even settle without first getting some type of class-action protection to cover all future claims? Case-by-case? Prove we insured them. Prove that scout was in that council / charter org. Prove the dates. Prove the injury. ... etc, etc, etc. Insurance companies have deep pockets to pay claims ... but the same deep pockets might be best used to pay lawyers.

BSA is trying to stay in business. I'm disgusted at the costs, but I really can't blame BSA. It's the cost of our legal system. ... The only way to stop BSA's legal expenses is to reach an agreement.

I absolutely agree. People get weird when money is involved. We never required fundraising. We did incentivized it. We'd spend about $200 to $300 on prizes for fundraising. Amazing how much kids sell to get a $40 big prize or a $10 Frisbee or $10 flashlight. But, that was our solution. It worked for us. Might not work for others. Ya know, the real interesting thing about scouting is ... it doesn't have to cost alot. If your CO has a fire-ring, the pack can go-far with marshmellows and field games.

Managing 84,000 claims. Fighting with insurance if they were real or not. Establishing injury calculations. Removing duplicates. Managing allocations as dollars come in. (... These $$$ are from camp $$$ which covers these 311 claimants with this finding of injury... Sending funds (to victim or lawyer ... confirming both lawyers and victims really got their funds ... ... oh wait ... that camp is across state boundaries ... and in another council ... what years was that and is it during a liability window ... ) ... Billing rates starting at $300+. Often $500+. Sometimes $1500. ... Allocating profit share off the top. ... 75% gone ...

I was a pack committee chair at least 15 years. I'd used fundraising to subsidize cub registration. When my first son started as a Tiger cub, the BSA registration charge was nominal. $15? The rest of the money was for awards, program, food, entertainment, etc, etc. "I think" our annual budget was about $150 to $200. The budget was funded between dues and wreath sales. We charged $50 dues. We often profitted $7500 from our wreath sales and used it to make a good pack program. ... If I were dealing with this today ... I'd want to keep the pack dues manageable, $50 to $75. Under $100 if I could. ... THEN ... change the budget. Gear up fundraising Recognize current year fundraising pays the next year registration Current year program money is really previous year surplus minus reserve (next year registration and safety net) AND ... Keep pack t-shirt (great way to build pack identity ... was $10 to $12 cost per cub). Ditch buying each cub a book (often they went unused). Keep the camps. Do more outside. Reduce paid events / entertainment Leverage more "free" stuff. County / state park programs. City programs. Avoid buying 25 pizzas. Prefer "POT LUCK" events ... if possible.

That should be the standard goal for all of us; every day of our scouting careers. It's the whole reason people have donated their lives and material and money to scouting.

Yeah. ... I never envisioned it getting to 75%, but I would not be surprised. This whole case smells like a gravy train (with more words I'll avoid adding). But then again, we've been told to not speak badly of the motives of the lawyers involved. ... It's just hard not to with $1500 hourly rates, the massive monthly bills and a big slice off the top at the end. I just don't see any good coming from this case. Period.

That makes sense. Then, it's not really BSA paying. It's a settlement trust that has been set asside for this. Is that in the current negotiated agreement?

QUESTION ... What about the other lawsuits BSA was facing? Do they submit claims to the settlement trust? Specifically GSUSA seeking millions for BSA infringement and damages. If BSA gets out of bankruptcy, it's a new company and past debts are cleared. Does GSUSA then go after the settlement trust?

It will be interesting to see if any of the COs can use previous abuse settlements as shields for repeated liability or effectively class action status.

I'm betting we are at least 18 months out before anyone sees a check. I'd question whether the settlement trust can start being dispersed or if it is on-hold pending further litigation with insurance companies. Or will individuals see one smaller check for BSA settlement. Then potentially another check for insurance companies.

Question (seriously) ... How would BSA continue to re-imburse for counseling? What I mean is bankruptcy is the clearing of previous debts. BSA will be a new company. ... IF BSA starts / continues to pay for previous wrongs, then those payments put the bankruptcy in quesiton and opening the question for others that did not get full restitution.

I am very strongly in the let the scouts decide. Not even the SPL deciding for others. The scouts should be able to choose their tent mates as much as possible. It's the scout's experience, let them own their experience. As for patrols ... keep your patrols. Kids can trade and move around ... but patrols are patrols. even if just two kids. That's who they are. You want to promote patrols as part of the scout's identity. Ad-hoc patrols subverts the patrol idea.

Yep. Then add the mix that not only do scouts need different methods, but adults do too. Further, we often have so many adults that you can never get them all on the same page. Some common phrases I think about. Continually adjust to maturity and needs of the scouts Continually back off as soon as scouts begin to take the lead Number one job is to keep them from major injury Adult leaders should be in the background; not foreground Adults need mentoring as much as the scouts Forms and print-outs have few places in scouting Often best to focus on program and adventure. The rest will follow. Like a sun tan.

I'm really okay with that ... IF ... seriously IF ... you apply the same rule to the adults. Otherwise, it's just hypocrisy. I've heard enough that adults need phones for other responsibilities like staying in contact with the family at home. The reality I've seen is it's really much more close to the exact reason the scouts want their phones too and the parents often want them to have their phones. Check web sites. Text friends and family. Be reachable. ... I have a serious issue with setting expectations for the scouts that the adults won't follow. IMHO, I'd rather see us teach the scouts to be responsible; use the phone as a productive tool and not a reason to hide from other people.

Yep. We keep re-circulating the same discussions. It's to the point that I just have contempt for discussions about "scout-led" or "patrol method" or many others. The very adults that say they are doing it so well then at the same time subvert the program. I've sat in and participated in years of debate. Only to see it rarely done well. A recent one I've heard ... The scout leader that is proud to repeat stories of: ask your patrol leader. The leader thinks they are teaching a good lesson. As often, I bet the scout thinks the adult is looking down on them. ... I keep thinking back to the common questions my 1st son's SM would ask when helping a scout solve conflict. What happened? What do you think the other person saw happen? How do you think it made him feel? ... So in response to the "go ask your patrol leader", I only ever respect that answer if it's worded like "That's a good question. I don't know. Let's go ask your patrol leader." THEN, the scoutmaster gets out of his chair and walks with the scout to the PL and says "PL ****, Timmy has a question". Then, let's Timmy ask the question. ... Any leader that says "ask your patrol leader" and then stays seated" is usually doing far more harm than good. At this point, I'd much rather listen to discussions on where can we go camping? What's new that the scouts have never done before thru their school or with their families? I'd much rather listen to training on how to run a good camp fire program. I've said this many, many times. I'd put our scouts up with any scout troop out there. We might not be as shiny. Our patrol lines might not be snap at attention straight. ... BUT, our scouts have the miles under our belts and do the work. Our scouts easily average far over a hundred nights of camping and stories to tell.

I absolutely love Ask Andy. Learned a huge amont from those columns.

All for improving YPT. Improve reporting. People need to recognize abuse happens. It's real. It often happens by people you trust; not just the creepy guy driving an ice cream truck. ... BSA YPT is good with rules and guides, but weak on opening your eyes to take it seriously. It's opposite of the first VIRTUS trainings I took. VIRUS opened my eyes with cringe worthy video interviews of abusers from jail. Statistics. Grooming practices. Darn creepy stuff, but it opened eyes to say "This is real. Take it seriously." VIRTUS was weaker on rules and guides, but it was extremely good to make you take it seriuosly. I even argue we need to re-engineer the program to allow a safer program. Though patrol method and scout-led, etc are sacrosanct, there is much we could do. Heck, it's also an opportunity to recognize the very-simple-concepts that define scouting is difficult for many to implement. What I mean is ... I've seen patrol method and scout-led messed up so much that I just don't trust when people argue these concepts anymore. ... What I have mostly seen done well is ... Let's go canoeing. Let's hike to the top of that mountain. Let's learn to water-ski. Let's do a 50 mile bike trip. Let's sleep under the stars. Let's go camp and tour this national monument. ...

I hugely agree. I do think troops should help the scouts earn SCOUT really quick. A scout should never been in a troop for a year without earning SCOUT rank. First or second meeting is great. A month or two fine. ... It should be simple and if the scout has missing parts, it's easy to fill in. I agree the key should be "opportunities" to advance, but the program should be fun and adventure oriented. Let the kid do new things. AND, if that means sitting in a hammock for an afternoon, fine. For many, that's a new experience.

I like the idea of having first year programs available, but not required. Perhaps the camp should publish a skills training calendar for their woodcraft area. Monday night KNOTS. Tuesday night LASHINGs. Wednesday SWIMMING. Thursday FIRST AID. Have a sign-up sheet with a max number to know how many staff are needed or if troop adults need to step up too. Scoutmaster could get a report of who attended which skill ... if necessary. Really, the scout demonstrating is the big thing.