fred8033

41 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

Disconnect between local-national and volunteer-professional has been vanishing.  I am sure you have good reasons to say some of these things.  We all form views based on experience.  My experience is that there is not much disconnect across the movement, whether it is the local-national or volunteer-professional issue.  I am a dual unit leader (Troop and Ship) and yet have very productive conversations with volunteers and professionals across all levels of the movement.  Of course I restrict my communications to matters appropriate to the person I am conversing with and watch the frequency.  I am also broadly known as a person who performs.  I am known as a person who offers to “fix things” rather than complain.  Those are just my approaches, but my calls are always welcomed and returned.  They respect me as much as the mother I just Emailed to share I just arranged a scholarship for her son.

Now is a great time for people to re-evaluate these issues and how they personally operate.  We are moving from survival mode to work-out mode, all on the way to normalcy in a couple of years.  The only logical way to behave during this is to be flexible, positive and helpful.  We can all do this and will be better for it.

I don't know you, but your story sounds similar to a several scouters I've met.   Most started at the unit level.  Once shown effective, they often help at district / council.  A few are plugged in at the national level also directly contributing to key areas.  ...  Given the number of councils and volunteers and I've run into several plugged in higher, I'd expect this is a broader pattern that you represent.  ...  From what I remember, that's how the G2A 2011 re-write was done.  I was not plugged in to that effort.  

1 minute ago, fred8033 said:

I can understand your thoughts.  It aligns with my view of recent citizenship badge changes.  The changes were done during a highly political time and have not been smoothly received.  

On the flip side ... there is a current problem and a strong need.  The long term solution might need time to design, etc.  In the short term, do you keep a program that fails 75% of the time?  ... I view the inclusion of crews as extensions of a troop as a "work around" that could smoothly give young adults a path to experience scouting.  ... 

Then again, I agree with statements about Sea Scouts and Exploring, etc.  They have solid paths.  ....   Different though is venturing.  Venturing has always been nebulous in goals and structure.  I tend to believe Venturing aligns well with core scouting where cubs are the younger years and Venturing are the older years.  IMHO, I'd love to see them under the same committee Tigers thru Venturing.  

Then again, this will take time to wash thru.  I've tended to favor learning much more from our tea taxing friends.  

Sad note ...  I plan to start posting less.  For the last six to twelve months, I've been quietly inviting a set of volunteers to help in my role.  I'm hoping that if I build enough excitement in them, the next generation steps up to take my last role.  If not, the best way to recruit the next volunteer is to walk away and leave a vacuum to fill.  Someone will get sucked in.  My target date is September / October to have the new group in place and then to step back.  

I learned scouting when my oldest son joined in August 2000.  I found the closest, dearest friends in scouting, but most have moved on.  I could continue in  my role for years, but I think it's time for me to let the next generation help ... and my golf game really really needs attention.  It's the shame of all my friends.  

I post this hear because I'd really like to see a venturing solution.  And a membership solution.  And an adventuring solution.  I'm not sure I'll see them.  

32 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

Best to wait a while before attempting to re-write a “general” program for young adults?  Perhaps because our society is going through such an extreme political and social upheaval, it might be best to wait a bit before attempting to write a program focused on a broad spectrum of young adults.  It would be good to have a thorough understanding of what societal challenges need to be addressed before designing another BSA structure of activities.  Simply re-designing badges, uniforms, structures and titles to fit immediate BSA circumstances  would not bring the vision needed to help our country in its upcoming epoch.

I can understand your thoughts.  It aligns with my view of recent citizenship badge changes.  The changes were done during a highly political time and have not been smoothly received.  

On the flip side ... there is a current problem and a strong need.  The long term solution might need time to design, etc.  In the short term, do you keep a program that fails 75% of the time?  ... I view the inclusion of crews as extensions of a troop as a "work around" that could smoothly give young adults a path to experience scouting.  ... 

Then again, I agree with statements about Sea Scouts and Exploring, etc.  They have solid paths.  ....   Different though is venturing.  Venturing has always been nebulous in goals and structure.  I tend to believe Venturing aligns well with core scouting where cubs are the younger years and Venturing are the older years.  IMHO, I'd love to see them under the same committee Tigers thru Venturing.  

Then again, this will take time to wash thru.  I've tended to favor learning much more from our tea taxing friends.  

5 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I blame current BSA YP policies forcing 18-20 YOs to abandon their <17 yo friends outside of Scouting. Plus  their is a feeling of disrespect from National since they do not count towards 2 Deep Leadership, and if they have Scouts working on MBs with them, 2 additional registered adults over 21 are needed (or a parent and 1 additional registered adult over 21).  These folks have the knowledge, skills, abilities, and time to do the HA stuff.

It's not BSA.  It's the legal environment in this country.  

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

It only works with adults who understand the big picture of how the different groups work together in the one program. Most (vast majority) of adults don’t have that big picture vision, which is why Venture Patrols and Troops Venturing Crews don’t have a good success rate. That The majority of new adult leaders don’t have a youth scouting experience adds to the challenge. I would question if the council professionals would have a working understanding of making this idea successful.

Barry

Well said.  Sounds like my exact words on teaching responsibility and leadership.  It's why I usually emphasize leaders should focus on executing an active program and not on teaching leadership / responsibility.  ...

The flip side is we have a repeatedly failing program now.  Venturing crews rarely survive more than a few years.  A few survive.  The vast majority don't.  That's a call for re-engineering.

14 hours ago, qwazse said:

Flawed assumption: not all crews have an “outdoor adventure program.” Nor should they.

A crew’s program goals may very well clash with the objectives of any of the nearest troop. E.g., the crew might seek to master pistol marksmanship.

Also flawed. My crew was the most vibrant when it wasn’t being feed by a troop. It had a tangible purpose when non-scouts were in the mix, especially as leaders.

Regarding an older scouts’ patrol/leadership corps/venture patrol, I challenge anyone to float it by your scouts to see who wants to start one now and see if it sticks. I foresee good things in store for @Cburkhardt’s leadership corps.

Matching with a troop ...

• Many times an existing troop could be a good match for a crew.   Not always, but often.  
• Crew (patrol) purpose / objectives don't have to be a 100% match with the troop.  It should be able to set it's own objectives.  Just like any patrol doesn't have to do all the activities of the troop.  Patrols should be able to execute their own activity schedule.  In fact, that's an ideal that patrols have their own patrol activities / camp outs / etc.  
• Crews (patrol) not well matched with the nearest troop should be able to be structured under another troop or create their own troop.  Similar issue with patrols and scouts not matched well with an existing troop.  
• Feels more like a concern where it's hard to get people to play well together.  

The big differences are minor ones.  crew --> troop and venturing patrol.  Advisor --> scoutmaster.   Dark green uniform --> tan scout uniform. 

Agreed.  In many ways, the whole crews, packs, posts, etc is really confusing.  A simplification would be welcome.

Given ...

• Programs that partially work often do more damage than good. 
• Always looking to simplifying the program. 
• Existing challenge how to deal with scouts that turn 18.   

Crews would benefit from being attached to a troop.   Continuity.  Program.  Equipment.  Friendship.   It also allows a structure to handle the youth transition into adulthood.  A GSUSA leader taught that scouts often learned best when we think of learning as a progression of responsibility.  I think it's true here too.  Crews fail because of turnover (advisors and members).  Being attached to a troop has lots of benefits including future members.

IMHO, troops should be thought of as a home with a progression of options from the 11 year old on his first camp out to the 18/19 year old looking for the scout fellowship and adventure.  

14 minutes ago, clivusmultrum said:

Yes you need to overhaul your leadership model. What’s the point of having this inbred model if they are not going to lean in on your real strengths? If they are reckoning their success is calculated in fund raising instead of Scouts being fielded, they are off the path.  

Agree.  Play to the strengths of the program.  The strengths are the uncomfortableness of being outdoors in new situations.  It naturally teaches responsibility, leadership and fellowship.  In reality, the program works better when you don't emphasize the marketed goals and instead focus on the basics.  Hiking.  Swimming.  

17 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

Our camp’s most popular merit badge is Chemistry.  

I'd argue then that it's how your camp does it.  Our summer camp never offered chemistry.  Any badge if done really well can be popular.

On 5/23/2022 at 8:59 AM, vol_scouter said:

The most popular merit badges at summer camp are STEM.  

I'll challenge that.  Until the last two years, I was at summer camp for 17 years straight.   

• Most chosen - Eagle required ...  first, aid, emergency prep, camping, swimming, etc
• Next highest - were cool rare opportunities - Small boat sailing, ATV, horsemanship, astronomy, etc
• Basic badges - Finger carving, climbing, riffle shooting, archery. etc
• Trades related - Welding, etc
• Filling slots were done by some badges.  Not unpopular, but usually a good number of scouts.  Mammal studies.  Bird Studies. Forestry.  Chess.  

STEM - Were popular, but depending on which one.   People who signed up for stem usually had been thru the other badges or wanted to do a session where they earned three instead of two separate for two.   ...  Rocketry was popular.  Electronics, somewhat.  etc.  

One trouble is defining what is STEM versus what is trades or just plain old long-standing badge.  

STEM can be popular, but not really any more than others. 

29 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

An interesting idea I only experienced once, and that was when I joined my first troop. At the first few troop meetings all the new scouts participated with all of the patrols (a different patrol each week). IIRC, we went as 2 per patrol. After 3 or 4 meetings the Patrols chose which of us were invited to join them. They made a big deal about choosing us. It was kind of like "draft day", the SPL would announce "The Toads choose Jimmy to join their patrol"! Cheers and high fives as each scout would run over to their patrol, be greeted with enthusiam and given their patrol badge. 

Now, that sort of sounds fun.  I can see it happening this way.   ...  Need to avoid the last kid chosen issue.  
 

Dang.  I'm worn out on the berating NSP.  NSPs work.  If people judge NSPs don't work, it's because that's what people want to see.  ... 

The question is what do you want scouting to be.  I want it to be a set of friends ... who regularly get together to keep their bond ... who can go out and have their own adventures.  Ideally, they develop life-long friendships.  If not, that's fine too.  I am 100% okay if a specific patrol name dies out after the last member finishes his journey.  If anything, those 17 year old scouts that are the last few in their patrol become the best troop guides as it gives them a job.  

Perhaps scouting has so much trouble because scouting can exist in so many ways.  Baseball is throw, catch, hit, run. Well-defined.  Same for football.  Block, tackle, run, pass, catch.

1 hour ago, yknot said:

Membership numbers as of March were down substantially according to the bankruptcy plan. I would guess some councils are using the bankruptcy to downsize. I just wish there was  some kind of long term planning being done on the part of some of these councils  to preserve the properties as parks/open space with continued public/scout access. It's painful to see these properties eyed for development like the one in Connecticut. 

Years ago I talked with our registrar when our council was looking to sell a piece of property.  I was sad.  Her comment is that if you look at the council over time, property has been bought or donated and sold.  Camps change hands.  ...  Then she started identifying the past camps our council had.  I never knew that our council had so many different camps over the last 90 years.  

1 hour ago, seguru said:

Scouting is ...

Agree.  Scouting is not baby sitting or adult led.  Scouting is a safe environment to try and fail.  ...   

Beyond that, "following the program" can be implemented many ways to create a unique personality for the troop.

7 hours ago, MYCVAStory said:

There very well may be winners and losers so the first spin ANY group puts on this is theirs alone.

I can't think of any direction this will go that won't lead to huge frustration for many.  If any part of this bankruptcy moves forward, this will be a long cycle of multiple appeals.  It's one reason I always thought it would end with a BSA only bankruptcy with other cases pursuing insurance, LCs and COs.  ... I never thought it would get this far.  ... Not the first time I've been wrong in my life. 

• When I was 18 to 20+, my life was continually changing.   Moving.  School.  Friends.  Relationships.  I question how many at that age would survive a multi-year club commitment.  It feels like program that will naturally fall into disorganization.  
• I craved adventure and doing things.  I wish the local scouting councils would have opened up their summer camps to us to use during non-summer times.   If the opportunity existed for me to go with a group, I would have gone.    For example, our council's camp is 2+ hours away and sits idle most of the year.  I had a well behaved set of friends.  Could we have gone up and used one of their camp sites with some support of borrowed gear?
• I wish scouting would find a way to plug in young adults on a less committed basis.   ...  Join us on this weekend for a backwoods, life changing experience.

@curious_scouter ... Nice !!!! ...  I wonder if councils will encourage a council volunteer-run, separate, non-profit to charter units.     

4 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

... knowingly filed as an anti-competitive move in coordination with a PR effort to smear the BSA program effort. ...

As long as I've had scouts in scouting ... Dale vs BSA ... CSA ... bankruptcy ... there has been a unhealthy relationship between BSA and GSA; mostly from GSA to BSA.  ... I'd say more, but it's hard without accusations.  But, it does feel like GSA has lifted themselves by pointing out issues and enjoying BSA be a target.  

Seeing an explicit reference to GSA lawsuit even tangentially related to a PR effort to smear BSA ... that really does make me sad.  

Perhaps the real issues is GSA sees it's own days as numbered when BSA emerges from bankruptcy. 

4 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

That is a great question. I know it is more expensive to do HA activities, but it is possible. But we are an "old school" troop not focused on advancement, but instead on fun and adventure. If it takes 4.5 year to get First Class, so be it.

Yep.  Adventure does not have to be expensive.  It can be, but does not have to be.

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

My question to troop leaders that want a Venturing program to keep their older scouts is "why not do adventure for all ages and then maybe you older scouts won't get bored". 

LOVE THAT ANSWER !!!!!!!!

PAST ... Opening a bank account has drastically changed over the last 20 years.  Last time we did it, the bank employee routed us to a gov site to create a non-profit EIN.  Then we used that one.  Probably ... no definitely not the right choice.  BUT, that's how it was opened.  

NOW ... ???   Policies and procedures are lagging and don't address it.

6 hours ago, Ojoman said:

Our council policy involves the use of council range and all shooting sports trained volunteers are part of the council shooting sports committee and there is a modest charge to use the council equipment to help maintain it. Both archery and bb. That way a unit shoot can be done on council property with trained staff and strict controls. Units without trained volunteers are at the mercy of the shooting sports committee if they want to have folks open the range and they are not always available. 

The key confusion is always talking about a "unit shoot".  That's for convenience.  Structurally, it's a district / council shoot.  (training, staff, etc).  ...  It's only advertised to that unit and thus we call it a unit shoot.  

21 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-human-beast/202001/why-women-and-men-still-take-different-jobs

Good article ...

• It should have dived into "Natural Selection" further.  Traditional jobs probably align better with odds of having more children.  Example ... The average female forester / fireman / policeman probably has fewer kids than the average teacher / nurse / HR staff.  Generation over generation, this is a feedback loop that naturally continues the separation.
• Should have dived into gender hormones more.  Those hormones affect body development causing the average male to be 10% to 20% stronger / taller / bigger than the average female.  As we all want to do jobs where we have an advantage, this ability difference causes a gender alignment for physically demanding jobs.

On 11/15/2021 at 3:00 PM, elitts said:

My pack always operated with the requirement that no child could attend any function without some adult taking personal responsibility for the scout.  It didn't have to be that child's parent after Tigers, but there had to be someone.  You couldn't just drop your kids at the door and drive away.

Same with our pack.  We explicitly did not have a check-in / check-out program.  Pack did not take responsibility for watching who comes and goes from the event with the cubs.  The pack ran the event.  The pack did not run the attendance.  

On 11/15/2021 at 11:44 PM, Momleader said:

Get involved and keep yours in line - parents are going to have to step it up a bit to help the leaders because the kids refuse to listen. 

In many ways, this is because the maturity difference between kindergarten and 5th grade is too big.  There is no way you can month after month create a pack meeting format that serves both groups.  The maturity level is just too big.  

ORIGINAL QUESTION ... 

On 11/15/2021 at 1:01 PM, FireStone said:

Is there an official BSA policy on Cub Scouts being dropped off for den or pack meetings with no parent present? My understanding is that from 2nd grade and above, drop-offs are ok, but I can't seem to find any documentation on this.

Anyone aware of any official BSA stance on this?

Policy would be in Guide To Safe Scouting.   I don't see one.  Closest is in the camping section.

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf

Page 22 ... "Cub Scout youth should attend the camping event with their parent(s)/ guardian(s).

• "Lions and Tigers must have their adult partner present to take part.   
• "For all other ranks: only in exceptional circumstances, a Cub Scout whose parent or legal guardian cannot attend a unit overnight camping trip may participate under the supervision of another registered adult member of the BSA, a parent of a Cub Scout who is also attending. The unit leader and a parent or legal guardian must agree to the arrangement, and all Youth Protection policies apply. At no time may another adult accept responsibility for more than one additional “non family member” youth.
• "Webelos and Arrow of Light Den Camping: Each Scout should attend with their parent(s) or guardian(s). A Webelos or Arrow of Light Scout whose parent or legal guardian cannot attend a den overnight camping trip may participate under the supervision of at least two registered leaders. The leaders and a parent or legal guardian must agree to the arrangement, and all Youth Protection policies apply."