fleetfootedfox

The BSA discourages units from filing for their own tax status separate from their CO.

Cubmaster responsibility is: "Meet with the unit commissioner, Webelos den leader, and Scoutmaster to establish plans for the Webelos Scouts' transition to Boy Scouting." ... and ... "Help plan and conduct impressive Webelos graduation ceremonies involving parents and guardians, the Scoutmaster, the Webelos den chief, the Webelos den leader, and the troop junior leaders."

Scoutmaster responsibility is: "Provide a systematic recruiting plan for new members and see that they are promptly registered."

I skimmed many of the posts in this thread, so forgive me if this has already been brought up, but I don't think it has. There is a fundamental difference between many other activities and Scouting. That is anybody can be a Scout, even if you are disabled. On the other hand, not everybody can play sports, and even fewer will be good enough to play at the high school level if they are not in a very small school that is just begging for players.

My son is a 7th grader who plays basketball. Already the competition is tough to be on the high school feeder teams. He wants to play high school ball, but he knows when he gets to that level not everybody who wants to play will be able to. More than likely at least 2/3 of the boys who try out will not make it.

With Scouting, you can take it at your own pace. If your goal is to be an Eagle, you can do it when you are 13 or when you are 17. With sports, you gotta work real hard to even make it onto a team.

And not to confuse this as a sport-only thing, when I was a kid I was more into music. I was in orchestras that you had to try out for. I was pretty good, good enough to be offered college scholarships, but I didn't make it into every orchestra I tried for. There was real competition, and if you were in a more elite group, there was no option to miss performances unless you were in the hospital. You miss too many practices or miss a performance, and there are plenty of people on a waiting list to take your place.

Now, as somebody else pointed out, being in sports during high school is a status thing, especially if you are really good. Kids care about being popular. They want people to like them.

This also gets into the uniforming issue that was brought up earlier. I'm sure most kids in middle school would be made fun of if they wore their uniform to school. It's not a matter of being ashamed of the uniform. When I was growing up in the 70's, I wanted to wear my hair long, because that was the rocker look. Looking back as an adult, it didn't make sense, but I was a kid then.

I agree with Eagle1982. I have camped plenty of places where there is no space that is flat. If I'm on an incline, I like to have my head higher than my feet and my head way from the door.

What is the point of these single-color ghost patches? Is it just to be different? I saw a "2002 NOAC Red Ghost Back Patch" advertised for sale at on a web site, and this is what has gotten my interest. Were these made to be put on the back of a red jack-shirt?

In my Council I found out that the Scout Executive had authorized the wearing of the sash at other times than spelled out in the handbook. When I met him at a camporee I asked him myself for clarification and he told me I could wear it at Courts of Honor, closing campfires, parades, or whenever I felt it was appropriate. So, you might want to do the same. As other people have said, it is not always black and white. Most rules have loopholes, and this one has a big one.

I disagree with the "Don't do it!" comment. If you follow the guide to safe scouting (http://www.scouting.org/healthandsafety/gss/gss13.aspx#a), you should be able to do winter camping and winter sports. There is a first time for everything. Everybody who has ever done these things had their first trip. Of course, you are doing the right thing by asking for advise and gathering information for your trip.

Anyway, I would say boys (and adults) who don't have or cannot borrow the proper gear (such as a good zero degree bag), should not be allowed to go.

IM_Kathy,

The original post you're talking about was in a different thread. This thread is about bylaws.

Unlike a parent handbook, bylaws are supposed to be binding and difficult to change (normally requires 2/3 vote).

Please read this:

http://tinyurl.com/6xs4uj

This bsa doc clearly states that scout units should not incorporate or apply for their own tax-exempt status. If a unit, which is not a legal entity, is tax exempt, it is only because it's chartering organization is tax exempt.

As it is clearly stated that the unit is not a legal entity, it follows that the law does not require it to have bylaws.

I like Bob White's example of a scout unit being kinda like the church choir and the CO like the church. I think that points out pretty succinctly why we do not need bylaws. Only problem with the analogy is that if I am in the church choir I am probably also a church member, but if I am in the scout unit, I may or may not be otherwise involved with the CO.

Anyway, I think this is a complicated issue, because there are multiple questions. Here are some...

1) Does your unit have to have bylaws?

Answer: No.

2) Does your unit committee want to have bylaws?

Maybe the answer is also no, but everybody thinks that the answer to question 1 is yes. If they knew they don't have to have bylaws, would they?

3) Does the BSA want you to have bylaws?

Evidentally they don't care unless you are a Venturing Crew, and I think that is so the youth can learn from the process of having to write their own bylaws (not something for the adults). If you follow the Venturing model in a boy scout troop and are trying to have a boy-run troop, you will have to get the boys to write the bylaws.

4) Is there potential for problems caused by bylaws?

Yes. For example, you may later find you are constrained by rules that are too restrictive. Also, some people will want to follow them to the letter of the law and others will choose to ignore them, so you will end up with some fights over them. What if the people who like the bylaws are the troop committee and the people don't are the scoutmaster and assistants? They are the ones going on the outings and they have to be on board if you are going to get compliance. But then are you really wanting to get into those fights?

5) What should you use if you don't have bylaws?

I think it has been adequately pointed out that there are BSA publications which tell you how to run your unit. If people choose to ignore those, they can just as easily ignore your bylaws.

We have bylaws that discuss discipline for behavior but don't get specific about what constitutes bad behavior. Unfortunately, I think our bylaws are still too specific in various ways and should be more flexible, but that's another topic.

I agree with those who are pointing to the scout oath and law. There is also the Outdoor Code. I think beyond these there should be no need for an additional code of conduct. You will notice that the scout law is about what a scout is striving to be whereas Codes of Conduct tend to be about "don't's". There are some very good reasons why B-P did not write the oath and law to be yet another set of "thou shalt not" rules.

Regarding the adults editing what the boys came up with vs. letting the troop be boy-run, I think if the boys respect authority they don't need the adults to give them such a written document. When they are on a camp-out and the SM tells them to do or not to do something, the boys should be obedient (as stated in the oath). If the SM and ASM's are feeling the need to add to the boys' CoC, it sounds to me like there must be a reason, which would probably be that they want to make sure the parents understand what they expect from the boys.

So, this documentation of rules is more about the parents, adult leaders, and chartered organization than it is about the boys. If I'm right in this, these things might be better put into a letter for the parents and the boys just need to know to follow their leaders and respect authority.

I like it. My boys are working on Craftsman and should be done before the next pack meeting. I'll see if I can use this.

I have now taken two different webelos dens to a local YMCA and gotten swim lessons from their staff. I tell them that I am a scout leader and want the boys in my den to be able to swim before summer camp and to earn their aquanaut pin. They charge only a few bucks per kid for a one hour lesson. After 3 or 4 lessons I have been surprised/impressed how much progress some kids make and they all got their aquanaut pins.

One boy who is special needs still did not want to swim when we got to camp, but that was more fear factor of being in a big lake. Next summer we'll be at a camp with a swimming pool, so maybe he'll do better.

What you describe may have been bullying, or it may have been rough play. Hard to tell not having witnessed the incident. In our civilized adult world, you would expected to get into some serious trouble for punching a co-worker, but in the boy world, they have their own rules which come from a sort of animal instinct which takes years for us to master in order to become part of this civilized adult society.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that the boys were not being malicious but were in their primitive way actually giving the boy a chance to become friends with them. Instead of complaining to the SM, he would have been expected to fight back, thereby gaining their respect and becoming an accepted part of the group. But instead he has proven to them that he is not part of their group. He has not won their respect. He is a tattler.

My point is, bullying is not good, but we should also be careful not to judge boy behavior by adult standards. They are not miniature adults.

Some of the parents who sign up as den leaders don't want to do recruiting later because they are happy with having small groups. That's not an excuse. They just plain don't want to do it. I see that to a lesser degree in our troop. The SM is afraid that if we get lots of webelos cross over with no parents willing to help then we will have problems.

It seems like in our pack lots of boys sign up as tigers, but then as time goes by some of them get very involved in sports which are increasingly demanding. 2-4 practics per week, games, tournaments all year round. It used to be that there were seasons for each sport, but I know boys that play one sport all year long. Then there are the boys that play on multiple teams at the same time.

Whether they admit it or not, all those kids dream of being a star athlete, and despite the fact that for the majority of them it's an unrealistic dream, it's hard to compete against, especially since many of the parents also have that dream for their kid.

I have mixed feelings about these kinds of depictions, but art immitates reality. I haven't seen this myself. I'll have to check it out. Sounds like good skit material.

Well, the guy who said wearing camo gear is "illegal" is making some big leaps in logic. First, he is assuming that any camoflauged gear is intended to be military. That's rediculous nonsense. What about hunting gear? Second, it is another huge leap to suggest that anytime a person is wearing camo pants that he is trying to immitate a military uniform. Finally, it doesn't sound like this guy is an attorney, so I don't know that he is an authority on what is legal or illegal.

Regarding the story of a scout executive kicking out scouters for wearing camo pants, the details are left out of the story, like the name of the scout executive and the scouters involved, so we can't verify the story. It sounds like a scouter urban legend to me.

Given what you've told us, it sounds to me like the parent who called the police was blowing things way out of proportion as you say she admitted to over reacting.

I used to have a neighbor who would call or threaten to call the police on neighbors and their kids at the slightest provocation. I think this shows a real lack of character, an unability to deal with conflict that will cause your troop problems in the future. I think your troop would be better of without somebody like that.

The leader, on the other hand, acted to protect a boy against possible abuse, an act which should be commended. I agree with Beavah on this one. If leaders are afraid they will have parents calling the cops on them for doing their job, before long you won't have anybody willing to be a leader. You need to support your leader on this one.

Solutions, please? Here is my suggestion.

It helps if your troop and/or pack has people who are involved with leading cub scout roundtables. Webelos leaders who are looking for a troop to crossover to will likely be asking at roundtable, so if you are there when they are asking, you can make a pitch for your troop. Just don't beg them to come. Talk about your vision for the troop and ask them how they would see themselves fitting into that vision.

If you aren't part of the regular roundtable staff, now might be a good time to approach the roundtable staff and offer to lead a webelos transition break-out session. You can talk about the transition process and supply a handout that includes information about your troop with your e-mail and phone numbers.

The boy has to have an approval signature, but it doesn't have to be an "eagle adviser". It can be the scoutmaster. The form says "Scoutmaster/Coach/Adviser". So, your husband should be able to sign the form and take it to the district eagle board himself, bypassing this other guy completely. The reason your son got turned down by district is because he has to have a signature, not because it has to be the adviser's signature.

Another option might be for your husband to appoint another ASM to be another eagle adviser, and have him sign the form. The boys can then choose who to go to. If the boys have more than just this guy to go to, before long nobody will be going to him.

I think there is no reason for him not to be OA troop rep just because he's a new member. In fact, if he's the only one going to meetings, he is the logical choice, isn't he?

Yeah, people need to go to training and try to do what they recommend. Far too many people, I think, either skip the training or let it go in one ear and out the other saying something like, "well, that's not how our troop does it."

A large portion of the SM handbook is devoted to planning troop meetings and activities using the standard troop meeting plan form which includes time for skill instruction. Our troop was not using this until I talked our new SM into trying it. This has been a big help to us.

Given what I have heard here, I would be 100% in favor of the SM (your husband) taking away the eagle adviser job from these guys.

In college I used to hear discussions that sounded a lot like this between people advocating a broad eduction vs. those who didn't want to be bothered with courses not related to their major. If my major is chemical engineering, for example, why should I need to take history or political science. Seems kind of irrelevant, doesn't it? Of course, I remember people saying things like this even going back into high school. "I don't like math and I'm not that good at it, so why do I have to take it?" or "Why should we study Greek mythology? What practical value could that possibly have?" I hear adults say, "All I need is enough math to balance my checkbook. What use do I have for algebra or geometry."

So, is it a waste of time to learn about something that you aren't likely to apply to your every day life? Well, let's look at it this way. Were Greek mythology and algebra ever considered to be topics that people would get a chance to apply every day of their life? Were scouting skills? I don't think so.

Early boy scouts did not learn how to start a fire by rubbing sticks together because they thought they were likely to need that skill. They had matches back then. So, there must be some other reasons for learning these archaic skills.

Maybe it had something to do with the pride of independence that came from feeling that you could face most any challenge, even being able to survive in the woods with nothing but the clothes on your back and what you could find such as a sharp rock and some sticks.

Maybe it had something to do with passing on mysteries that had been passed down since ancient times, and making a connection with our ancient ancestors and their simpler way of life.

And maybe it had something to do with making a well-rounded person.

I am not in favor of giving boys a hard time about hair or musical taste, but I also don't think this has much to do with how military or non-military scouting is. I have a picture of an ancestor who fought in the civil war and he had long hair and a long beard. These are more issues of style and fashion. However, some sub-cultures also use these as symbols of their rebellion and solidarity, the same sub-cultures that have promoted drug use. Unfortunately, then, boys may not understand all the implications of adopting these symbols, and I think it is appropriate for scoutmasters to point out the possible negative consequences of falling in with the wrong crowd.