fleetfootedfox

While the hypothetical of an 18 year old tenderfoot is interesting, that's not what we're talking about here. I think a much more realistic and probably very common scenario is of a boy quitting out of frustration due to not making progress.

Not knowing the actual real boy we're talking about, I don't know if he is really happy with where he's at or if he's just so frustrated with being in a troop he doesn't like that he doesn't feel motivated.

To me it seemed like a red flag, especially given that the parent is talking about how unhappy both of them are with their troop. Maybe he would be more motivated to advance if he was in a better troop.

I assume you didn't mean to say you don't like giving recognition for completing merit badges. We are supposed to practice instant recognition. It's in the scoutmaster handbook.

Here's another link:

http://www.scoutingmagazine.org/issues/0611/a-emom.html

Well, there is something to be said for your approach. However, I would like to offer up the suggestion that in the real world we are often judged by other people based on standards of performance that are not always individualized and are beyond our control. A boy may be getting what he wants out of the program without ever making rank, but other people may view his performance as lacking and will likely feel he is not doing his best.

When he applies to college, the admissions office will look at his high school grades. If he did not make good grades, it will not help him to argue that he didn't feel grades were important as long as he was learning and having fun. Also, when he goes off to try to get a job after college, they will want to know if he has any degrees and what they are. If he went to college for 4 years but has no degree to show for it, it will not do him much good to claim he felt the diploma was just a piece of paper and he felt he got whatever he could out of college and was happy with his own performance.

So, you may feel it is wrong to judge a boy's scouting performance based on rank, but I would say this is how the world works, and might as well get them used to it.

Yeah, I am worried about one of our dens. The DL lectures the boys a lot and I don't think their meetings are very fun. I think we will lose a lot of them as time progresses. There's only so much you can do though. Out of 12 set of parents last year, only one dad was willing to step up to be a leader. This year a couple more have reluctantly stepped up, but it's still a struggle. I'm afraid a lot of parents want BSA to stand for "baby-sitters of america".

Lisabob, I don't mean to imply that scouting is all about rank, but slow progress is usually a symptom of some problem. I agree scouting is not all about the rank, but from the time they are cubs they are taught to do their best. I don't know your son, but I wonder if 1st class after 5 years is his best. Maybe it is, or maybe it's just too late now that he is older (at least 14) to prod him along the way you might have been able to when he was 12. However, if he is not learning to do his best, then what is he learning?

You say you don't want to bribe your son, but is it fair to say that he is under-motivated? Maybe there are other ways to motivate him. Also, although you can't force him to do merit badges or do them for him, you can keep track of what he is lacking, offer to help him or find others who can, etc.

Of course, the word "bribe" carries negative connotations, so maybe my use of that word was a poor choice. If you are a "my glass is half empty" kind of person, you might even say that the rank patches and merit badges are essentially "bribes" to get them to do the work that they require. However, we prefer to call them "recognition", not bribes. I don't think there's anything wrong with making deals and offerering additional motivation. Once he's done the work, he'll realize, "that wasn't so hard.... why did I put it off?"

Of course, I have seen boys get pushed to eagle and stop attending troop meetings as soon as that is achieved. I don't like to see that, because when they are older hopefully they are more mature and ready to step up into more leadership positions.

Regarding the bullying, having not witnessed it first hand I don't know what you call bullying. Boys get rough and tease each other and some people call that bullying. I wouldn't. Of course, bullying and hazing should not be tolerated.

I don't know much about the money issues with specific counsels or districts, but I guess everybody is feeling the pinch as you call it these days. I have been hearing of layoffs from a lot of big companies in the city where I live. This has got to have an impact on scouting activities too.

However, it is also a big opportunity for us. I am hopeful that Scouting for Food will go well since people are hyper-aware of the economy. It is also an opportunity for our kids to learn some things so that hopefully they won't be as frivilous as my generation.

So, let's all try to look for the positive in these things. If we do, the scouting movement may come out of this stronger than ever.

Well, it is interesting that I just posted in another topic about my RA's experience.

"When I was cub scout age, I was in what some might consider a scout-like organization. It was a Baptist program that emphasized missions called 'Royal Ambassadors'. As far as I can recall, our church wouldn't sponsor a BSA pack/troop, because the BSA included boys from other denominations. Main thing I remember, though, is the boys wanted to go camping, but the men who were running the program weren't interested. The program had an outdoor/camping element, but that was an optional part of the program."

I don't have any RR's experience, but the lack of camping emphasis sounds similar to RA's. RA's existed as program for promoting missions before they had any outdoor element, which explains why that is not a mandatory part of the program. RA's is a very old program that still exists in some churches. However, it was run out of a lot of churches when somebody noticed similarities between their advancement ceremonies and masonic ceremonies. Actually, the RA program pre-dates the controversial ceremonies which I think they have since eliminated. However, the damage was done and so you don't hear of RA's much anymore.

RA's did not have a uniform that looked that much like a scout uniform. There was no official uniform shirt. Instead we were supposed to put a patch on a white dress shirt. I don't think they do that anymore though.

Yeah, people often argue you can get the same things other places that you get from scouting, but then again you may not. I was not a scout as a boy and am convinced I would have benefited from the program. Also, I could have done scouting while still doing the other activities I was involved in.

When I was cub scout age, I was in what some might consider a scout-like organization. It was a Baptist program that emphasized missions called "Royal Ambassadors". As far as I can recall, our church wouldn't sponsor a BSA pack/troop, because the BSA included boys from other denominations. Main thing I remember, though, is the boys wanted to go camping, but the men who were running the program weren't interested. The program had an outdoor/camping element, but that was an optional part of the program.

I did eventually do some fun things with my church youth group, but when I went canoeing with the church group, I didn't know what I was doing, nor did most of the other people, and I think we were just lucky none of us drowned.

As far as sports go, I have a very clear memory of my 6th grade assistant basketball coach (one of the dads) teaching us how to cheat. I'm sure he taught us other stuff, but that's what will always stick out in my mind when I think of him. So, does one bad coach mean I would keep my boys away from basketball? Of course not. All three of my boys play basketball today, and all of them are scouts.

So, you can try your luck with another program, even one that looks like scouting on the surface because they have patches and uniforms, but if you do I hope you have better luck than I and my parents did. For me, as a parent, I like what I see in the scouting program. Are all scout leaders and troops following the program perfectly? No, but I'm involved and doing my best, and that's all I ask of the others.

As long as you are a parent with a boy who is scouting age he should be your first priority. God didn't make you a scout leader, but he did make you a parent. If your boy is struggling, stop waffling and take decisive action. Quit your district job for now, forget about being a tiger dl for a while, and concentrate on helping your son. And if that means you have to butt heads with some other adults, do it, but keep the boy isolated from that. If it means helping him find merit badge counselors, do that. If it means going on more camp-outs with him, do it. If it means helping him set goals, then do that. If it means bribing him, bribe him. Be creative. When he starts progressing, it'll get more fun for him, and then you'll enjoy it more too.

Great thread. Good to hear of other people interested in Seton. I have that book, although it's currently lent out to a fellow scouter.

Last week we went swimming at an indoor pool. Fun for all ages, but especially for boys who are a little shy of the water, good to get them swimming before summer camps.

We are actually thinking of planning winter tent camping this year, something our troop has not done in years if ever. You definitely need to be prepared with a good sleeping bag etc.

Last year we had a cabin camp, and we're going to do that this winter again. Kinda fun if your cabin has electricity you can have a movie night or let the kids play video games for some portion of the weekend (not something I like them to spend a whole weekend doing, of course, but within reasonable limits it can be okay).

Diane,

I have learned that the new trend in cub scouting is to do nearly all of the activities in den meetings, not just the "den activities". That may account for why other dens you mention are on the fast track. To do that, you have to have more den meetings and/or be very organized.

I am a Webelos den leader right now. Last year I had a boy that missed some meetings due to illness (and probably some for other reasons). Fortunately, I had time to do a few extra make-up ativities and he made up the rest at home. This year I have a boy that joined at the beginning of the year and hasn't been to a meeting yet. What can I do? Apparently, everything else is higher priority. Even square dancing night at the elementary won out.

I guess the real question is what did you budget for at the beginning of the year? Anything that wasn't accounted for in the budget should be an extra expense that requires fundraising or an additional charge per person. Otherwise, you might run out of funds and that will be embarrassing.

Nothing wrong with light weight equipment, but if you're talking about having dutch ovens and bear barrels, you are not doing light weight camping either.

Yes, big and heavy. However, a part of the tradition of scouting. They emphasize the patrol working together. The boys have to work together to set it up. Plastic totes break. A good patrol box is stable, wind-resistant, fairly water proof and animal-proof when closed up.

B-P said he wore the uniform to show the boys that an adult is not above wearing the same uniform that the boys wear. If we want the scouts to wear their awards proudly, we should not be shy of wearing what we have earned.

If another adult leader asked me how I earned those knots, I would tell him/her, but I've never been asked.

Boys, on the other hand, have asked me about my knots and beads. When I tell them, they seem to think it's cool, and that is enough reason for me to wear them.

I have no connection with Girl Scouting, but from what I understand they tend to be more neighborhood-oriented. They define a troop as "a unit in a local neighborhood, school, or church", but they don't require a troop to have any sponsor or chartered organization. Anyway, bad things go on in Girl Scouting too.

BTW, I thought it rather annoying that this year the girl scouts have an extra fundraiser that is just before our popcorn sales. Is this a national thing or something local?

Anyway, the only problem I've had with some guys who don't have boys in the program is an attitude that parent leaders are short-timers who are less than welcome. Of course, this is a whole separate issue.

You can't tell who bad people are through "profiling". So, best thing is to have enough adults around at all events to make it hard for the bad people to take advantage. That's why we have two deep leadership. However, if two deep is good, three is even better, and four or more doesn't hurt.

You have at least a couple of different issues here. One has to do with the role of the committee chair. Another has to do with the boy-run troop idea.

On the boy-run troop thing, the adult leaders of our troop have sometimes over-ruled the boys when they want to do something that is too expensive or might not be safe or doesn't fit in with the aims of scouting. I haven't always agreed with the adults and it can be frustrating at times, but there are practical limits to what the boys can do on their own. For example, if they choose to go someplace far away and there are no adults willing to drive that far, they cannot drive themselves so that is the end of that. However, if that is the case, they will find that out for themselves eventually and don't need the CC to veto their outings.

Regarding the role of the committee chair, I do see a lot of troop web sites that refer to the committee chair as the "CEO". I agree that is not quite right, but I also believe it is true that the SM and the rest of the troop is below the CC on the typical troop org chart. (see http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Image:Boyscout-troop.gif) Now, that does not mean the CC should micro-manager the troop, and the SM should not either.

Yeah, you put somebody in a position of authority and sometimes it goes to their head. However, if the CM couldn't hear the instructions, that would be the time to tell the person he needs to speak up, not after there's an issue.

As they say, there are two sides to every story. I'd like to hear the other side.

Interesting post. People make such a big deal about AoL that it makes it appear like something very difficult and time-consuming to do. It is a big deal because it is the culmination of years of cub scouting, not so much because it is hard to attain for a boy who wants to do it. Several boys in my son's den did all 20 webelos pins in 1 1/2 years, and the AoL requires only 8.

However, they got a lot of those pins at summer camps, and a boy starting in 5th grade won't have a summer camp before he would like to cross over into boy scouts. Also, for AoL, you have to go overnight camping with other Webelos, but if you're getting into winter there aren't likely to be any Webelos camp-outs until after blue/gold, which is when the crossover often happens.

Regarding a 4th grader crossing over because he happens to turn 10 1/2 before the end of the school year, I would not recommend it for most boys. If you have ever gone camping with Webelos, you will know why. They have a harder time being away from mom & dad, are more likely to have issues with camp food, fear of creepy crawlies in the tents, etc. Consequently, camping with Webelos is a lot of work, and the troop's Scoutmaster is not likely to like having a 4th grader dumped on him for a week unless the boy's dad is there.

Another thing you might run up against as a young leader is that an older guy may see you as just another kid.

Anyway, if you can't get training for whatever reason, you should at least get and read a copy of the Scoutmaster Handbook. There's also lots of stuff you can read on the internet as you are finding out.

Unfortunately, if you have a leader who is in the habit of barking orders a lot, training isn't likely to fix that. Knowing and doing are two different things. If he's been around a while, he probably knows that the organization is supposed to be using the patrol method and the adults are supposed to be working through the patrol leaders. Also, the fact this guy left and came back is sort of troubling. Sounds like he could be a habitual trouble-maker. Again, training will not fix that.

However, you are doing the right thing by working through the SM as it is his responsibility to fix the problem if it needs to be fixed. If he chooses to ignore the problem and it just gets worse, you may not have a lot of options.

Good luck.

We have had disagreements over this in our pack. At one time, we had a den leader who started giving out lots of belt loops and pins, whereas others had not been doing that. So, the committee chair pushed through a vote to limit it to 3 per boy. However, later we got a new committee chair and it went back to buying all of them. We did eventually raise our yearly dues, which has helped.

I really think it is the pack's responsibility to pay for awards out of whatever funds have been raised, and if they can't they need to find new ways to raise the funds rather than nickle-and-diming the parents.

Our pack is the result of a merger between an older American Legion Post pack and one originally chartered by a PTO. We are now only chartered by the American Legion Post, but we still have our monthly pack meetings at the school. About half of the boys at the school have at some point been a member of the pack. There is no other organization that I know of that can make this claim. So, it would be hard for them to kick us out as they'd then have dozens of upset parents on their hands. However, we do often get subtle messages that we are just another outside group that does not receive any special treatment. For example, they won't let us do recruiting during open house.

Being chartered by a PTO, of course, means you are not just another outside organization. Otherwise, I don't see much benefit to it. Once you get re-chartered with your new CO, you can still meet in a public school, although you will have to compete for time slots along with other groups and pay any fees the school normally charges. The key, I think, is to communicate with the principal of the school your needs and what you can do for the boys in the school.

Getting chartered by the American Legion Post has the benefit of creating a relationship between us and the boy scout troop that they charter. As you can imagine, that is good for the troop and for the pack. The troop has a ready stream of recruiting prospects from the pack, and the troop can provide camping opportunities to webelos, help with the blue and gold banquet, etc. We also do Scouting for Food together.

I googled the topic and found articles about Nalgene discontinuing use of the chemical after a study showed it caused some problems in rats that were fed the chemical. However, I didn't see anything about zip lock bags containing this chemical or there being any studies that proved that use of these products caused problems for humans. I think it's probably just the latest junk science. I also found this (from http://www.factsonplastic.com/) ...

FDA Further Reaffirms Safety of Food-Contact Products Containing Bisphenol A

ARLINGTON, VA (August 15, 2008) In a comprehensive draft scientific assessment issued today, the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) strongly reaffirms the safety of food-contact products containing bisphenol A (BPA). Bisphenol A is used to make polycarbonate plastic products such as baby bottles and sippy cups, and is used in epoxy linings of cans to help to protect the safety and integrity of foods and beverages.

FDA is the premier agency responsible for the safety of our food, stated Steven G. Hentges, Ph.D. of the American Chemistry Councils Polycarbonate/BPA Global Group. FDAs thorough analysis confirms that food contact products made from polycarbonate plastic, including products for infants and children, can continue to be used safely.

Many people wear patches on red jack-shirts that aren't allowed by the rules (all that's supposed to be allowed is the BSA patch on front and the OA patch on back). Also, the rules say not to wear a district patch, but our district has one and the council sells them and encourages us to wear them. I didn't know about some of the rules for years. Although there have been long discussions on following rules in general, and I don't want to rehash that here, if you look around at a Roundtable, you'll find most people have some sort of uniforming rule violation. The truth is, the kids do not care, nor will most of them know, if we are wearing patches wrong. So, I don't think this patrol patch thing is a big deal.

Remember that most volunteers are parents and sign up as leaders for the first time along with their boy when the boy joins a pack or troop. That also means that in many cases the CC does not actually know the people who are signing up. In most cases the most he or she really knows is that the adult brings a boy and claims to be their parent. I don't even think that leaders are instructed to ask for I.D., so the information on the form isn't even verified. Background check is the responsibility of the council or national. So, as I said, the CC is just signing to say that the form was filled out correctly. That's all.