fleetfootedfox

He was not excluded from anything as far as I know.

The SM explained the situation over the phone to the dad and we are going to have a meeting after the next troop meeting. He'll probably say something like, "I'm just watching out for my son and it's nothing personal." He doesn't seem like the apologizing type.

Meanwhile, if he continues making frivolous accusations, he will find that he is no longer welcome. How that would play out exactly, I am not sure.

evmori, from the BSA web site (http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/PatrolLeader.aspx): "The troop determines the requirements for patrol leaders, such as rank and age."

The troop has age/rank requirements He does not meet those requirements by virtue of being a brand new Scout just crossed over from Webelos.

gwd-scouter, to clarify... he qualified for appointed positions, such as historian or librarian. He did not qualify for patrol leader.

When I was a kid, I had it so ingrained in me that I should not ever "cuss" that when a teacher wanted me to read a part in a play that used such words, I refused.

In fact, the churches I grew up in had all kinds of rules. However, we had no problem with using words like "shoot" or "darn" or "gosh".

This seems to me like a new phenomenon among people who are overly concerned about offending others and always being politically correct.

My son was accused by a teacher of taking the Lord's name in vain because he used the word "gosh", and he was really upset by that. He felt she was treating him unfairly, and I said, well at least now you know how she feels and you can void the problem in the future. I try not to be too critical of the teacher even if I do think she is a git.

Still, I think people need to lighten up a little.

Narraticong, I sort of feel the same way.

Actually, though, I am not opposed to being somewhat sensitive to what might upset another person even if I don't agree with it. That's just being polite.

What I do not like is having somebody point their finger at me and suggest that I might have done something to intentionally discriminate or having the feeling that there is this time-bomb ready to explode at any time in the future. I am afraid that I will always have to be walking on eggshells with this gentleman and it is going to be a problem in the future.

In fact, I was actually acting to help out this man's boy and now I will be almost afraid to have anything to do with the kid.

If your current SM is okay with it, you could go to Roundtable and put out the word that you are look for a new SM.

Of course, if you bring in an "outsider", make sure you interview him properly to make sure he's a good fit for the troop, and ask for references. If he's offered the position, makes sure he fills out a new application form (even if he says he's already a registered leader). Although it's rare, there are some characters out there who've got an arrest record they're hiding from and somehow manage to avoid filling out an application for a long time. When they finally get caught, they move on to another troop. Don't let somebody like that even get a foot in the door with your troop.

A few years ago our troop got a new SM simply by the old SM "appointing" somebody he'd met at Roundtable. He just showed up one day and announced "this is your new Scoutmaster". I would not recommend this. The whole troop committee should be consulted along with the CO rep.

Also, in our pack one year the CC showed up one day and said "this is your new Cubmaster". That backfired on her later, as now the two don't get along too well.

Anyway, good luck. I wouldn't throw in the towel just yet if I was you. These seem like fairly common issues you're dealing with and it could be much worse.

We had several new boys come up from the Webelos recently into our troop. Two of them are black. I have known them from the pack, but don't know them very well. We are a mostly white troop, although of various backgrounds and faiths.

At the past troop meeting, one of these boys got confused about something and complained to his father. The father later talked to the Scoutmaster over the phone and expressed a concern that his son may have been intentionally excluded from the scout elections because he was black. The Scoutmaster was sort of shocked. He didn't know what to say, so he said he would look into it and get back to him, but assured him that he knows everybody in the troop and none of us are racist.

Now, I know the boy was there during the election and this is just a misunderstanding. I was there, so I know, and this isn't a question of the troop even inadvertently excluding anyone. He was there. He didn't get elected to any positions, and I can't speak to why, but I know the boys and I'm sure it had nothing to do with his race. But this parent seemed to conclude that the Scoutmaster and I had colluded to completely exclude this boy from the election where actually we had gone out of our way to make sure that he got signed off on all his Scout requirements and were treating him just like every other boy.

The father even said something about switching to a different troop, but, of course, then he'll just have the same problem elsewhere as it's a problem of perception which nobody else can control.

Has anybody experienced anything like this? What do you think of this?

I am also a Webelos leader going into Webelos 2 next year. I have the benefit of having gone through it before as an assistant with an older son's den. However, my new group presents many new challenges. We are a result of merging two dens that were both dwindling plus one new boy who hadn't been a cub scout before webelos. Then I had another boy quit this year shortly before he earned his Webelos rank, which was a bummer.

I think you are on the right track and doing the right thing for the remaining boys. I think keeping it fun is very important. I have had to make adjustments in my den meetings to keep the boys interested.

It's easy to get overwhelmed with all the requirements, especially the academic pins you mentioned. Luckily, you say you are past most of those. Going for all 20 pins is a great goal which I plan to go for too, but if they are on track for Arrow of Light, don't sacrifice fun to get more pins. They can wear Arrow of Light on their Boy Scout uniform, but not the super-achiever patch.

Good luck!

I am a Webelos leader. I had two boys who were getting bored, so I tried to spice up the program. I added monthly just-for-fun activities (no advancement involved). The first one was laser tag. (Please don't tell me about the guide to safe scouting saying you can't do laser tag. Different topic.) This worked with one of the boys, but the other boy's mom wouldn't let him attend.

What irks me is lack of personal responsibility from these people who complain. Most of these "burnt-out" parents are not the ones who were planning all the meetings, attending committee meetings, attending Roundtables, and doing everything they could to try to provide a good program for the boys. No, they are the parents who were always content to be on the sidelines.

We had 11 boys say they were crossing over but our SM did not believe all of them would. First troop meeting only six showed. Fortunately, he hadn't bought books for all of them. I think it would be a great idea to make them pay up before blue and gold.

"According to recent research published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, I've only a 50-50 chance of ascertaining the tone of any e-mail message. The study also shows that people think they've correctly interpreted the tone of e-mails they receive 90 percent of the time."

Ah, well. What's important, hopefully, is the information.

The information on 501©(3) vs. 501©(4) is interesting, although I believe Kiwanis recently changed to 501©(3), didn't they?

There is also 501©(19), which covers the American Legion Hall. Contributions to such veterans groups are usually tax deductible.

Anyway, the original posting is about changing CO's, and the rest came from the question of who owns the troop gear. I have certainly heard it both ways, but as they say "Posession is nine tenths of the law." My non-professional opinion is that if you leave and take the gear with you, the CO is not likely to try to come after you to get the gear back. If they do, you explain to them that you will gladly give it back, but do they really want to hurt the boys and possibly damage their organization's reputation in the process?

Mafaking wrote: "The bigger issue is in the title 'adults need to learn to let go'. Agreed! and your post supports why overwhelming parental involvement destroys opportunities for scouts and drives good scouts out."

We're between a rock and a hard place, aren't we? The most ready pool of volunteers are the parents. Also, I believe that parental involvement is very important and should not be vilified. Just try googling "parental involvement" and see what you find.

Here is one quote I found:

(from http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Final_Parent_Involvement_Fact_Sheet_14732_7.pdf)

"Decades of research show that when parents are involved students have:

- Higher grades, test scores, and graduation rates

- Better school attendance

- Increased motivation, better self-esteem

- Lower rates of suspension

- Decreased use of drugs and alcohol

- Fewer instances of violent behavior"

It has been my personal experience that boys tend to stay involved longer in scouting when they have a parent involved in some way. That doesn't mean the parent should hold their hand or boss them around (I literally have seen scouts walking around at camp holding hands with their mom, and it makes me cringe). However, if the parent thinks scouting is worth spending time on, they are not going to be constantly trying to pull them in some other direction to the exclusion of scouting (as many parents do with sports or other activities).

"However, you are referring to obtaining a tax exemption certificate that allows a unit to buy equipment without paying sales tax."

Kahuna, you should do your homework before you start correcting statements or reading things into them that were not said.

Please see this link:

http://www.longspeakbsa.org/info/IRSForm990-N.pdf

This is a memo from the Nation Office to units. In this letter, it specifically says, "We continue to strongly discourage units from filing for their own separate 501©(3) tax-exempt status with the IRS."

We have a cabin camp out next weekend. The webelos crossed over sooner than originally expected and put our numbers over what we were allowed in the cabin. So, it's the first time I can remember us having to limit a camp-out. We are not a huge troop though. Boys need opportunities for camping, and I would hate to have to limit it every month. That just doesn't make sense to me.

Yeah, it is disappointing seeing them switch to stuff made in China, but I guess it is a sign of the times. I also remember years ago the people at the local scout shop saying the reason the stuff is more expensive is cause it's made in the USA. Then again, Scouting is a world-wide movement.

At any rate, the whole point of wearing a uniform is that everybody looks the same, right? That's what the word "uniform" means. If you wear something different or modified, you are not in uniform.

Liz, Congrats on getting a helpful diagnosis.

BTW, I got a heart rate monitor watch for my birthday. I've found it very helpful as it tells me when my heart rate is in the right zone for fat loss and how many calories I've burned.

When I first started in the pack, they had a system where they put 4 or 5 stickers on the bottom of each car and took one sticker off if the car came in last place. Trouble with that was that the stickers had a tendency to fall off. So, I suggested we switch to one sticker with their name on it and make a mark on the sticker for each loss. That was better, but we still had a problem with judging. Sometimes cars would cross the finish line too close to judge.

A couple cars were so close that they had to race them over and over and some of the parents were being critical of the poor judges. So, when I was Cubmaster I finally talked the committee into buying an electronic lane judge. There are some technical issues with hooking up the hardware and using the computer software, but it is well worth it. The races don't take as long, each boy races in each lane exactly twice. Times are computer to the nearest 1000th of a second, eliminating all but a few ties. And even if there is a tie, you don't re-race, because the results are not based one elimination but on average time over all 8 runs.

I am very pleased with our decision to use the electronic lane judge, and if the thing should break (hasn't happened yet, we always test our setup in advance), we can fall back on the old system.

Maybe I am missing something, but where does it say the Scoutmaster is the only one that can sign off on Scout Spirit or POR? Maybe some troops have set this policy for themselves, but I mean where does it say it in official BSA literature?

Also, I agree that some of these problems show that people don't understand that a troop is supposed to be boy-led.

Thanks for the additional details. It sounds like the SM is adding requirements, which is a no-no, but we don't know what's going on in his head. It could be that he just does not believe your son is ready for star rank based on more subjective criteria, so he is trying to put it off. I think it is important that your son finds out exactly what is expected of him, if he can make up the training, or the SM is going to force him to wait many more months with no real idea of what he's supposed to be doing to achieve the rank. Unfortunately, if he just won't give any answer, it may be time to look for another troop.

The star rank requirement is to serve in a position for 4 months. You have said all this happened just 3 weeks ago. What happened to the other 4 months? If he was in a position for 4 months while a first class scout, then he has met the requirement already and this new position that he started 3 weeks ago should not affect that. If he has not served in a position for 4 months, he is not ready whether or not he's had the training.

As a parent, if you are going to get involved, you need to know the requirements and what your son has or hasn't done. You also need to know for sure that what the SM said is really what he said and not your son's 12-or-13-year-old perception of what was said.

I think I would need more details before I could decide whether I think the SM is as bad as some people have assumed. Before you go off and leave the troop, make sure you understand more than you have told us here.

Being a scout leader can be pretty physically demanding depending on your position. I am wondering what other scouters do to stay in shape?

The latest thing I am doing is a DVD workout that also came with a diet plan. My wife is on Weight Watchers, which is somewhat different from my diet plan, but close enough that I can eat what she is cooking. I tried low carb dieting in the past and found it difficult, because my wife and kids love high carb food. It's hard going it alone and not being able to eat what the rest of the family is eating.

The DVD workout I am trying is called Power 90. So far, I have lost about 10 pounds and an inch off my waist. It is enjoyable and convenient to be able to do at home. I am not mentioning this as an endorsement of their product. Just comparing notes.

My apologies. I didn't mean to over-simplify an difficult problem. As a 43 year old who has struggled with weight issues most of my adult life, I know it's hard, but I'm also increasingly thinking about my health and being able to keep up with the scouts as I get older. So, I'm not just going to sit around worrying about it, I'm taking action.

I have seen one instance where a scout leader suggested that another "take a break" from the troop and he ended up quitting. The reason he was asked to take a break was that he had invited the other leader out to the parking lot when they had a disagreement at a troop committee meeting. Violence, physical threats, and verbal abuse are all intolerable.

When you ask a leader to leave, you'd better have a good reason, because there will probably be additional fall-out that will last at least a year, including hard feelings and possibly other people also leaving the troop. I would also suggest to do it quietly to try to minimize the problems.

Although I think that obesity is a bad example for the boys, I don't think it's good enough reason to ask somebody to step down from their leadership role. Nobody is perfect. However, it wouldn't hurt to tell them you are concerned for their health and want to make sure there's not going to be a safety issue caused by their weight problem. Having somebody bring it up like that might motivate some people to go on a diet.

I think it is not either-or. We serve our CO, the community, the boys, the parents, each other. What takes priority if these somehow conflict? I don't think anybody will fault us if we put the boys first.