fleetfootedfox

This question of the class pariah is an interesting side issue. There are boys in my son's troop that he just does not like. One of them in particular is liked by almost nobody because of his annoying behavior. He talks way too much, loves inappropriate humor, likes to tease others, gets angry easily, seems to be incapable of being serious, etc.

While on the one hand I do ask my son to be tolerant of others, I don't expect him to be buddies with this kid. Even most of the adults can't stand to be around him for very long. While in some respects it can be chalked up to family problems, I think he could do more to get along better with the other boys. He will be eligible for OA this year, but I seriously doubt he will be elected. I am sort of hoping is is not, because I think it may the wake-up call he needs.

Unfortunately, such people need to eventually learn that their behavior, whether it be picking their nose or something worse, needs to change. They can't expect everybody to accommodate them all the time. The sooner they learn this the better off they will be in life.

On the other hand, I can totally sympathize with the Scoutmaster who has to put such a boy in a patrol. One only hopes that the rest of the patrol will find a way to deal with the inconvenience and it doesn't ruin the experience for them.

Interesting article here from Time entitled "Inside The Crazy Culture Of Kids Sports":

http://tinyurl.com/q6tgmt

The select teams may be good for some kids, but I think parents should really stop and think if they might be taking their kids sports a little (or a lot) too seriously.

Interesting article here from Time entitled "Inside The Crazy Culture Of Kids Sports":

http://tinyurl.com/q6tgmt

The select teams may be good for some kids, but I think parents should really stop and think if they might be taking their kids sports a little (or a lot) too seriously.

Even if you could unlock all the passwords and read about stuff on the internet, reading it doesn't do it justice. You need to experience it first hand, and see the boys perform the ceremonies. More than likely, if you're not a member it won't have the same affect. It might all seem very silly to outsiders. Of course, it's not just the ceremony itself, but all the hard work the boys put into it. It is sort of like the discussion about wood badge where to some outsiders it all seems sort of useless and not worth the time.

If you know the meaning of the admonition, finding the spelling should not be a problem. If you don't, you should participate and pay more attention when you attend ceremonies. Unfortunately, many people never bother to attend ceremonies after their own induction, and during their own ceremony they were probably very tired and the whole thing is just a blur.

So, if you don't participate and you won't bother buying a handbook, I'm not sure why you care. It's really only worth the trouble if you're going to be involved.

Can't the moderators kill this thread? The guy's just getting his jollies picking a fight. Clearly, he is not a scouter and has no business on this forum.

The pressure to be more involved in other activities becomes greater as the boys approach and get into high school. Parents and teachers may respect the older scout for his accomplishments, but they are probably not even noticed by their peers in high school. If they are, it is likely to be accompanied by a derisive snicker. However, just because a boy comes to a point where scouting is no longer the priority in his life does not mean before that he was unworthy of election to the OA.

The guide to inductions specifically say, "...it is not mandatory for a candidate to attend a call-out ceremony in order to participate in the Ordeal..." However, they do have to participate in the ordeal, so if the ordeal was rescheduled that is another matter.

Assuming that not to be the case, the lodge should provide another call-out ceremony before the ordeal. In fact, the guide to inductions says, "... lodges and chapters should make every effort to provide call-outs at unit meetings, or at other times, for candidates who cannot attend their scheduled call-out."

That said, I have not heard of the lodge I am in conducting a call-out at a troop meeting. In fact, they require candidates to be at summer camp for the call-out. However, if the SM turns in the paperwork along with all the other candidates forms, I don't think anybody will even notice that he's not there, because the call-out ceremonies are so big. Also, they do an extra call-out ceremony the night before the ordeal.

So, what I am saying is that local chapters and lodges may make up rules that conflict with national rules, but sometimes the SM who knows what's going on and work around these people. You need to talk to other Scoutmasters to know the process of your local lodge and chapter.

Thanks, Brent. That's a side of it I hadn't really thought about. The weekend I'm talking about these guys stayed up til 3am and got up at 6am two nights in a row and drove home the same day. They aren't truckers, and I'm not sure why that makes a big difference as truckers fall asleep at the wheel and have accidents too.

When I was in college I once was sitting next to a driver who fell asleep on a major busy highway doing 70 mph after not getting enough sleep on a float trip. I may not be alive today to tell you about it if I had been napping. He started drifting into the median and I momentarily took the wheel. (Obviously, touching the wheel when somebody else is driving is not something I would normally do.)

"Traditionally, in our unit, when I was Scoutmaster I would consider nominating adults after (0ne year later) their son's became candidates."

A boy has to be a second year scout to be eligible the first time, so you are saying you won't typically consider the adult for nomination until their boy is at least third year scout. By that time, the boy will be about 14 and statistically that's when the average boy will quit scouting. So, I'm guessing you must not nominate very many adults.

Personally, I would just as soon nominate as many as we are allowed to and let them decide how involved they want to be. All the worry over sash-and-dash or conversion numbers seems kinda pointless to me.

Beavah,

It also just so happens that the oldest boy scout with our troop on this camp out was 13 years old. I can hardly expect a 13 year old to get up in the middle of the night to deal with some sleeping problem of a 10 or 11 year old.

Also, one of the webelos is my son, and he happens to be a sleep walker, which was a factor in my not wanting to wear the ear plugs.

However, I tried not to couch the question with all these particulars, because I didn't think that the adult behavior was either more or less acceptable based on my personal circumstances as I am sure in the future we will be camping with and/or next to people who also do not want to use ear plugs.

It seems to me that if a person can deal with the noise of snoring, normal outdoor noises, the noise of people getting up to use the toilet, etc. and wants to not wear ear plugs, they shouldn't be forced to wear them just because other adults are being loud all night long.

I would say that Scouts should not participate in such a ceremony while in BSA uniform.

A letter from the Chief Scout Executive Aug. 6, 1991 said boy scouts "... would no longer use the Confederate flag during official activities." See the following news stories for reference.

http://tinyurl.com/cjbopk

http://tinyurl.com/ctt522

Imagine the image problem that could occur if the newspapers carried a photo of boy scouts folding a confederate flag.

During the recent Presidential political campaign a local boy scout troop was invited to attend a political rally. The policy was clear. They could attend, but not in uniform, lest they be lending the symbols of the BSA to a particular party. So, I would say if your boys want to retire a confederate flag, the same principle would apply. They should be able to do it, but not in BSA uniform.

WB 21st Century is the adult version of what is taught at NYLT. I think anybody who thinks they might someday be a Scoutmaster should attend.

Interesting topic. I don't think it was intended to be a discussion on boy-run vs. adult-run, but there is that aspect. Of course, the adults are there for more than just safety. Adult association is one of the methods of scouting. "Adults provide the living example to Scouts of the ideals of Scouting."

"Da PL, not you, should be the one respondin' to any youth issues in the middle of the night."

If a webelos scout wakes up crying for mommy or wets his bed, you are going to say the PL deals with that? Interesting solution.

"Is the SM really that loud, or are your tents really that close to the fire?"

Yes. They are really that loud. Their laughter can be heard several hundred yards away echoing off the hills.

"My suggestions. Use ear plugs. If a boy has a problem in the middle of the night....you already have several adults still up, so why should you be sweating it?"

I have tried that, but as I said they are not comfortable and they block all noise, which could be a safety issue. If there is some sort of emergency going on, I don't want to be sleeping through it. I guess I will end up taking the risk and letting them deal with any emergencies. Still not sure what to do if the plugs start hurting my ears and I take them out to find these guys still awake making lots of noise. Believe it or not, I have tried having one in my right ear and lay on my left side and then switch later.

"Why are you attending the camp outs?"

I am an ASM and at this camp-out I was also in my role as Webelos den leader with Webelos in camp.

"Do you bring some particular skill to the group that nobody else has? Are you the only one with a trailer hitch to pull the troop trailer?"

If I were the only one with a trailer hitch, I could still drop off the trailer and leave. However, I am a trained leader, including Wood Badge, and I am one of the few who goes to Roundtable regularly. Yeah, I could try staying home, and if I tell the SM it's because they are too loud that would be another way to make my point.

"Official lights out? Who's official?"

This past weekend was a district camporee with a schedule that stated lights out was 10:30pm. If other troops are staying up later, I don't have a problem, although midnight is past what I would consider an acceptable bending of the rule.

I've always been in agreement with a few adults staying up long enough to make sure the boys are bedded down and most of them asleep and have done that myself. I also would have no problem with them staying up all night if they could do it quietly. However, one guy in this group has kind of a bar room voice. Most of the time he is the only one I hear, but occasionally they will all break out in raucous laughter. As somebody else pointed out, once I get annoyed it probably all seems even louder to me whereas they think they are being quiet.

Lisabob has some good points. The SM does have some other issues. He has driven away several people from the troop, a couple of them intentionally. The guy with the bar room voice has other issues too. He loves to tell stories that are funny at the expense of other people, and he will embellish heavily and tell them over and over. I think this is because he has very low self-esteem, so he builds himself up by making fun of other people. It all sounds very childish, I know, which begs the question of why I put up with it.

However, as anybody who has contemplated changing troops knows, it is seldom that simple. Despite the SM's failings, he is a long-time friend. Mainly, though, my son has friends in the troop and doesn't want to move.

Some of the adults in our troop, including the SM, have a tendency to stay up very late. They will be around the campfire until 3am talking and laughing, sometimes rather loudly. I have complained more than once and they just laugh and make fun of me. Apparently, it's my problem, because I should just put in ear plugs. However, ear plugs are not comfortable and they work too well. I can't hear if a boy has a problem in the middle of the night, and in certain situations in can be dangerous not being able to hear what's going on around you.

They also let the boys stay up well after official lights out, and the SM doesn't mind if they talk in their tents all night long. He thinks staying up late is part of the fun, like at a sleep-over birthday party. However, the boys are expected to get up at 6am regardless, whereas if they were at a sleep over birthday party they could sleep late.

Also, about a year ago the SM got very angry at another group camping near us who got up early (about 5am) and started making noise, banging pots around, etc. I agreed that it was rude, but he went so far as to draft an official letter of complaint to the Council. So, I think he's being an incredible hypocrit. If somebody else is being woke up in the middle of the night it's their fault for not wearing ear plugs. If it's somebody else waking up him, then they need to be punished.

It never hurts to ask and also check your lodge bylaws. Ours say adults are elected by secret ballot at a regular troop committee meeting. There is no election team sent out by the lodge for the adult election. The unit leader runs the election and turns in the citation at summer camp along with the boys citation forms. Therefore, the lodge is trusting the adults in the unit to choose well. Yes, I know this is different from most other lodges.

I learned as the dad of a tiger that there were too many other dads making their boys cars for me not to find some way to give my son a chance to compete. My son left his first pinewood derby in tears. Was it testosterone that made me take pity on my little boy and want to help him? Your comment about the dads is a sexist generalization.

"Some of the adults want to scrap our troop participation in OA altogether if we cannot simply appoint every eligible member to be an Ordeal candidate."

This is the way our society has gone. People have a very strong sense of entitlement.

You should stress that lack of OA membership does not affect their rank advancement and they will have future opportunities to be elected as long as they stay active.

Our lodge does not do a nemat hike. I don't see the nemat hike mentioned in the oa handbook or anywhere on the national web site.

There are 5 challenges to brotherhood honor. The first one involves memorizing certain things, and the second involves gaining an understanding of the ordeal. The OA handbook also has a list of questions that go along with requirement two. Our lodge uses a slightly different list of questions.

scoutldr, sounds like you should've started looking for your replacement about 11 years ago. I think the best thing to do in that kind of situation is not to tell them to go to another troop. Just give the parents your resignation and tell them when your last day is. If they want to continue the troop, they will find a new scoutmaster. If they want to kill it, that's their decision.

On a side issue, I have learned that if you want good recruiting you have to invest time in the cub scout pack. Most people when their boys move up into the troop never look back and leave the pack on their own. You need to work closely with the pack and supply den chiefs.

I am reminded of George Burns. I think he is the classic example of somebody who just refused to slow down.

Whether you are forced to slow down or just burnt out, I hope there are ways to stay involved at a level you are comfortable with.

In ay case, I hope you still hang out here to share your wisdom.

Nice. Our troop doesn't own a computer, but anyway our lodge requires elections at summer camp if we're camping in-council. So, if we had a computer, probably wouldn't have it at camp.

Just found this. From Unit Elections Team Checklist: "If your lodge uses preprinted ballots, send a sample ballot, in advance, to the unit leader so that the leader can enter the name of eligible Scouts and make a copy for each voter. "