fleetfootedfox

gpraceman2 hit the nail on the head. The BSA doesn't make the rules clear enough out of the box. On the other hand, a couple years ago I noticed they sold in the Scout Shop a car pre-cut to a wedge shape. So, how can you say a pre-cut car is against the rules when the BSA was selling one? They currently sell a book of "Pinewood Derby Speed Secrets" which covers a lot of stuff that clearly a kid is not going to do by himself but will require an adult to do. Power tools, modifying the wheels, etc. Pictures in the book show an adult's hands doing everything.

I think making everybody turn in their wheels and redistributing them before the race sounds like a terrible idea. Then it is just pure luck as to who gets the best wheels and you might as well just toss a coin and hand out the trophies randomly.

Another possibility would be to drop the pretense of having the boys do all the work. Just announce it as a father/son (or mother/son) project and let them do whatever they want and have fun and not be so serious about it.

crazyhorse, The English in your posting is fine. I wish I could say the same for you wiki site, but I'm sure that will improve.

I am assuming that there are enough differences in Scouting between different countries that international advancement tracking software would be difficult. My troop uses software called Troopmaster. It is not free but is affordable and apparently meets the troop's needs quite well. There seem to be various others on the market and some free ones. There is even a free spreadsheet solution called ScoutTrax.

Some of these other projects you mention sound interesting, but probably not enough demand to make them go very far. A Scout-specific Linux distro seems pretty pointless. Where is the demand for such a thing?

Looks to me like parents and siblings who are not registered are not likely to receive the same insurance coverage under the Council's plan.

Read this...

http://old.scouting.org/healthandsafety/resources/10-280/10-280-11.pdf

This may be council-specific. The document is from Golden Empire Council. However, it's probably not safe to assume your council has better coverage than this unless you've verified it.

Under the heading of COUNCIL ACCIDENT AND SICKNESS

INSURANCE PLAN...

"This Accident and Sickness insurance is provided

for youth members and adult volunteer leaders

registered in the Council. (LDS units carry their

own accident insurance coverage.) This plan

provides coverage for accidents and sickness (as

well as accidental death and dismemberment) while

participating in any official Scouting activity,

including going to and from meetings. New

members are automatically covered under this

plan. Non-Scouts attending scheduled activities

(including group travel to and from activities) for the

purpose of being encouraged to participate in

Scouting are also automatically covered. However,

the plan does not cover parents, siblings, or other

guests."

Under COMPREHENSIVE GENERAL

LIABILITY INSURANCE...

"....The insurance provided unregistered Scouting

volunteers through the BSA General Liability

Insurance program is excess over any other

insurance the volunteer might have to his or her

benefit, usually a homeowners, personal liability, or

auto liability policy...."

I found almost the exact wording on the Greater St. Louis Area Council web site, so I am thinking it may be pretty standard.

As the boys get older, there is a tendency for them to start to not like hanging out with younger boys. So, if you have dads bringing their 3rd graders and forcing the older boys to deal with them, it might just help push the older boys away.

I have three sons, and there have been times when it would be more convenient for me to just take them all along even though they aren't all old enough, but I don't. My 5th grader does not want his younger brother at his Webelos meetings, and my 7th grader barely tolerates some of the less mature 6th graders in our troop. Honestly, I am sure that if I somehow let my younger boys come on all the boy scout outings, it wouldn't be long before my oldest boy would be wishing I would stay home.

Yeah, true, normally all you'll need is the pads that are pre-soaked with some kind of disinfectant.

The eduction angle is something to think about, but along those lines also setting a good example.

The current policy is on: http://www.scouting.org/HealthandSafety/Resources/policyonchemicalfuels.aspx

It clearly states: "The use of liquid fuels for starting any type of fire is prohibited, including lighting damp wood, charcoal and ceremonial campfires."

That has not prevented scouters from doing this where I live. At summer camp where I went last year they had a huge bonfire started with many gallons of kerosene. When they lit it, it was almost like a bomb going off. It was a little scary.

I have also seen kerosene used for torches, sometimes so soaked that they are dripping flaming droplets. Again, kind of scary.

We have come a long way from the days when boy scouts started their fires by rubbing two sticks together. Wow factor seems to be more important than safety.

Sad story. As others pointed out, there are policies on liquid fuels, but the accident was caused by rubbing alcohol, which was probably on hand for first aid, not intended as a fuel. Rather, the alcohol was probably pulled out of a first aid kit, which makes me wonder if we should stop putting it in first aid kits that the boys have access to. Maybe we should use hydrogen peroxide instead.

Tokala, Thank you for your input. Are you a native Lakota speaker?

How about these phrases that apparently come from Seton...

HAY-OON-KEE-YA - "Be with us"

HAY-OON-KEE-OON-EE-YA-SNEE - "Come not upon us"

Obviously, phonetic spelling.

Thanks again.

BTW, Home Depot can match paint color. So, do you think Mr. Ebay doesn't know that?

Some wheels that come in the kits are just bad. So, forcing people to use the wheels you give them may not always be fair either. And what if they accidentally mess up the parts that you gave them? Are they just outta luck then?

Anyway, you might be able to force somebody to use the parts you give them, but you can't police how they build the car. So, now the guy who would've bought the car on ebay for $100 will instead spend that much or more on tools and the result will be the same. The cars that get the most adult attention (whether the boy is doing the actual work or not) will be the ones that win.

Yes, I created that wiki page. Aren't search engines wonderful? I didn't suspect I would be quoted to answer my own question. Probably should've picked a more anonymous username. Oh, well.

As somebody pointed out, it is a bit difficult to separate the genuine thing from the European distortions and the new agers. There are tons of books written by what Natives refer to as Plastic Medicine Men.

As for Seton, he was a very talented person to whom the BSA owes a lot, but he would have had to change things and make up stuff in his attempt to make the Indian way of life more understandable to white kids.

Ignorance on their part does not consitute a mistake on your part.

Now when you get that complaint you can ask, "what do you think the word tap means?" You might also ask the person to show you the official BSA web site or publication that says not to use that term anymore.

tap - "To select, as for membership in an organization; designate."

I get the impression from reading on these forums that many people think the term "tap-out" refers to the physical act of getting hit in the call-out ceremony, and even knocked down as it was once done in the old days in some lodges. However, I recently saw a reference to a college club that had "tapped" new members.

I searched the internet and found that many clubs use this term. I also saw reference to a high school club's "tap-in" ceremony. I then searched and found the above dictionary definition for the word "tap".

So, it seems that "tapped" basically means "chosen" in this context, and a "tap out" ceremony would simply be a ceremony where people are selected for membership.

I like the survival geocaching idea. Mentioned it to my SM and we think it'd be great for an upcoming backpacking trip. Thanks.

Well, I have heard this called "sash and dash", and I think that's a fairly common term. I think it bothers people who take the honor seriously, but is it any different from the boy who quits scouting as soon as he gets his eagle rank?

I think the best thing to do is to start with the guy in the mirror and not worry so much about what everybody else is doing.

The lodge I am in certainly does have some programs to try to keep people involved. They have something called "beyond brotherhood". There are silver and gold beyond brotherhood pins that you can earn.

The Guide to Safe Scouting says, "Every BSA activity should be supervised by a conscientious adult who understands and knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being and safety of the children and youth in his or her care." If the boys go off for the whole day on their own, how does that work with the BSA guidelines?

Maybe this doesn't apply for some reason?

If this was an overnight trek, you'd definitely be in violation as it says, "All backcountry treks must be supervised by a mature, conscientious adult at least 21 years of age who understands the potential risks associated with the trek."

However, your council may have different rules. The Santa Clara County Council web site says, "The 'safety rule of 4' requires that no fewer than four individuis, with a minimum of two adults, go on any back country expedition or camp out. If an accident occurs one person stays with the injured and two go for help."

You are saying "rule of 4" means 4 boys. They are saying "rule of 4" means 2 boys and 2 adults. Have to have 2 adults, not one cause of 2 deep leadership.

In case anybody is curious, I figured it out. It is from the Lakota nun-we, which means "May it be so, let it be so, Amen!"

mls1, glad things worked out for your son, but sounds like your troop still has lots of problems that started long before the current crisis. Training can't hurt, but it won't fix an issue with a person who is just plain hard to get along with.

I am sort of shocked to hear an instance of a troop where the advancement coordinator is acting like the boss of the troop. Maybe she should be reminded that the first two words in her job description are "Encourage Scouts". It is the CC's job to "Interpret national and local policies to the troop", not the advancement coordinator.

No, it was the Ordeal, but don't confuse call-out with pre-ordeal. And it depends on what you mean by open. If a huge crowd of parents and siblings followed the candidates into the woods after the call out, it would certainly be a different experience.

On a humorous note, when I was tapped out, it was a long walk from camp to the place where the call out took place. Then we went down the wrong path on our way back to camp plus we had another long walk to the spot for the pre-ordeal. I was so tired from all the walking, sleeping was not a problem that night. I think that is actually maybe their intent to some degree. Get the boys tuckered out so they can sleep good. I wonder how many parents would even want to be there if they knew that in advance.

I am not sure that most people viewing the ceremonies are necessarily going to have the same appreciation for the experience as people who went through the ordeal first. It is like Wood Badge. What is the big deal about a couple little beads? The big deal is what they represent, all the hard work and good memories.

Hau.

I am wondering if anybody knows if the word "Noon-way" comes from an actual Indian language or if it's something made up (like "Webelos"). It seems to originally come from Seton's Woodcraft Indians, but the word is used by 4-H, Y-Indians, and others. It is supposed to be an Indian word that means something like "amen", but I haven't been able to determine where it comes from.

Thanks!

WWW

I do not think there has ever been a policy that parents could absolutely not attend.

dg98adams, your lodge and/or chapter must do things much different than mine, because ours kept the troop members together for the ordeal and ceremony.

The BSA has always had trouble keeping boys after they reach high school. Thousands and thousands of Scouters have tried to figure out ways to retain boys past the age of 14 and unfortunately we usually fail. No need to get into all the reasons. The sooner you accept this, the sooner you can concentrate on other problems that are more solvable.

That said, if you do have a young troop like mine where the SPL is 12 years old, you are definitely going to have to be more hands-on than the ideal situation where you have a 16 year old in that job.

However, the others are right too that Boy Scouts is different than the Cubs. I would suggest that if you want a hand in finding fun things for the boys to do, you might want to volunteer for the Outdoor Coordinator position. If you are doing it just as a mom with no official job in the troop, then you're going to look like you are butting in where you don't belong.

I went to a Ceremonial Team Seminar last weekend. I was surprised to see a dad came and brought his little tike, evidently Cub Scout age or younger. He allowed him to watch an Ordeal ceremony being performed for competition. Maybe he figured the kid was young enough that he won't remember much of it by the time he's 12, or maybe there was some other special circumstance I was unaware of, but I was still surprised.

Yeah, I think they don't want a bunch of parents standing around snapping photos and waving at their boys during what's supposed to be a solemn ceremony. I got tapped out same time as my son, which was cool, but if I hadn't I would've waited.

I am trying to figure out the meaning of the Indian words in this Four Winds ceremony:

http://www.raysmyth.net/wtscouts/otenaBook/fourwinds.html

I believe the original source for this ceremony was based on one by Seton in his Book of Woodcraft, but consulting that did not help much.

I believe most of the words are Lakota. Spelling is weird though. Most tribes did not have a written language of their own for most of their history until after Europeans showed up. And I think the words in these ceremonies were written phoneticaly, so looking up words in a Lakota-English dictionary, for example, is problematic.

Thanks in advance.