fgoodwin

Merlyn_LeRoy writes:Since the BSA is a private organization that can discriminate, the ACLU is making sure government agencies don't practice discrimination by sponsoring BSA packs and troops.I disagree that mere sponsorship of of a BSA Troop means that DoD is discriminating. First of all, there is legal and illegal discrimination; what BSA does is legal discrimination, according to the SCOTUS. In any event, the mere sponsorship of a Troop that denies membership to gays or athiests should not, by itself, be considered discriminatory. If a Scout-like organization came along that admitted only gays and atheists, to the exclusion of straights and Christians, seeking DoD sponsorship, and the DoD denied the request, then that would be discrimination (i.e., unlike treatment of similarly situated groups). But of course, ACLU isn't out trying to encourage atheists and gays to form their own clubs -- ACLU wants to do everything it can to tear down the BSA and the moral principles it stands for. Fred Goodwin Alamo Area Council

Hunt writes:I took a look at the proposed rules, and I was somewhat surprised to see that they aren't really "equal access for all" rules. They simply say that access can't be denied to certain patriotic groups (including BSA) based on their views. Presumably, the schools could exclude other groups with the same or different views without violating the rules. It's an odd rule, and I'm not sure that the rule is itself constitutional, since it requires public forums to favor particular gIf you feel that strongly, please consider posting your comments to the Dept. of Education. Thye need to hear all points-of-view. Fred Goodwin Alamo Area Council

Merlyn_LeRoy writes:Both Fred and Bob can't understand principles. They defend the BSA's right to discriminate, yet turn a blind eye when public schools practice discrimination by chartering Packs.I understand that your personal attacks on me and Bob don't fit any of the twelve points of the Scout Law. If you want to debate the issue of school sponsorship of Cub Scout Packs, you are welcome to start your own thread and debate to your heart's content. But that's not the subject of this thread. YiS, Fred Goodwin

Merlyn_LeRoy writes:It's like people are too stupid to understand the difference between a school allowing discriminatory outside organizations to use rooms, versus a school running such a discriminatory organization itself.Save your personal attacks. Like I said, the rule isn't about sponsorship of any organization, its about equal access to all organizations. Fred Goodwin

Merlyn_LeRoy write:I wasn't talking about the rules, I was talking about being treated equally (something you've also been talking about).With all due respect, I started this thread to announce the rulemaking and to give interested persons an opportunity to file comments. It really doesn't matter to me whether folks support the rules or oppose them, but its obvious you aren't really interested in them anyway -- you appear to have an agenda entirely unrelated to the subject of this thread.Are atheists in Blattman Elementary being treated equally when the school itself runs a Cub Pack that excludes atheists?If you feel that strongly about it, why don't you form a group of atheist kids that excludes Believers, and ask a school to give you a meeting room? If they do, then everyone is being fairly and equally. If you want to argue just for the sake of argument, kindly find someone else.Your definition of equality comes from Animal Farm, where some people are more equal than others.It's not my definition. Like I said, I'm not here to argue about BSA's policy. The Supreme Court has affirmed it. If you have a problem with it, take it up with them. Fred Goodwin

Merlyn_LeRoy writes: Hey Fred, do you think that a public school like Blattman Elementary can "own and operate" Pack 2003, and exclude boys who want to join who are atheists? That's your Pack. Do you see nothing illegal about a public school running a youth group that practices religious discrimination?Again, whether or not you or I see a problem with that is irrelevant to the rules under consideration. Nothing in the proposed rules requires public schools to sponsor a Cub Scout Pack. But the proposed rules specifically provide that Packs and Troops cannot be excluded from school meeting space simply because of BSA's membership requirements. Fred Goodwin

KS wrote:Aside from principle, I don't see what the issue is here. We can gnash our teeth all day about a public school allowing the G/L/T Student Club to meet for free in school facilities while BSA is denied that opportunity, for example.The law and these rules are designed to prevent that situation.But, ultimately, a CO is required to provide a place to meet.Agreed, but that's not the issue. The issue is, that Scouts should have the same rights of access to the school (and to the kids) as any other non-profit group. It doesn't matter who the CO is. Even if the CO is a church, the Pack or Troop that wants to meet at the school should have the same right to meet there as the GLBT group you refer to above.Unless the school is the CO and they're not letting a unit meet there, this seems to be a tempest in a teapot... But the issue is about much more than meeting space. It's about the ability to recruit, to send fliers home in the weekly folder, to put announcements in the school newsletter or on the school bulletin board.BSA's rights to do those things should be no less than any other non-profit group that is allowed to do those things in the public schools.Fred Goodwin

acco40 wrote:Is a public school building public property? Yes and no. I believe residents of that school district should have preferred access to use the facility. They school districts should have some say in who they will let use the school facilities. Non-profits, private businesses, private organizations, charities, student organizations, etc. - all should not be forced to come under the same umbrellas. Should an aerobics instructor who wants to use the gym for her high priced clients be treated the same as a Cub Scout Pack for the use of the gymnasium for 1.5 hours? I say let the school administration decide that question, not a federal law.I agree -- neither the Law nor the Rules require that schools give BSA the same access as a for-profit operation like an aerobics class. But the law (and the rules) do say that a school that gives access to one non-profit group, may not discriminate against the BSA (also a non-profit group), or risk losing federal funding.So as far as I can tell, the local control is still there, with one big exception: local "nondiscrimination" policies that actually are used to discriminate against the BSA are pre-empted by this law.Fred Goodwin

ALL: This is great discussion. We can debate the pros and cons of the law (and rules) all we want, but anything posted here won't really affect the outcome of the rulemaking. If you really want your views to be heard, I highly suggest you post them to the Dept. of Education: http://comments.regulations.gov/external/Comments.cfm?docketId=04%2D23290 http://tinyurl.com/4fchq If you do decide to post your comments to the Dept. of Education, please be aware that the time to debate the need (or lack of need) for the law has passed. So comments along the lines of "this isn't necessary" won't be very useful, because the law requires the Dept. to develop rules for enforcing the law. What the Dept. is looking for is comments on how best to enforce the law. If you have concrete examples of cases where the law and rules are needed, that would be very helpful. If you believe the rules go beyond what the law requires, or don't properly implement what you believe the law requires, those are the kinds of comments the Dept. needs to hear. YiS, Fred Goodwin

Paige Proposes Regulations to Enforce Boy Scouts of America Act The U.S. Department of Education is seeking public comment on proposed regulations that guarantee equal access to public school facilities for the Boy Scouts of America and other patriotic youth groups, Secretary of Education Rod Paige announced today. "The goal of these regulations is to ensure that the Boy Scouts and other patriotic youth groups have equal access to public facilities, and today's action is another step toward achieving this goal," Secretary Paige said. http://www.ed.gov/news/pressreleases/2004/10/10132004.html ================== Here is a weblink to submit comments via an online form if you don't want your email address to become a matter of public record: http://comments.regulations.gov//external/Comments.cfm?docketId=04%2D23290 If the above URL wraps, try this: http://tinyurl.com/4fchq I don't know if access to local schools has been an issue in your area, but it is an issue in other parts of the country. Whether you support or oppose access to public schools by the Boy Scouts, please read the proposed rules and submit your comments. This is participatory democracy at work! Fred Goodwin ACM, Pack 2003 Alamo Area Council

queenj: encourager is right, and I was mistaken in my earlier post. The "Duty to God" brochure clearly states that "community churches" and "independent" Christian churches may use the God & Country materials, and the boy may apply for the age-appropriate medal. Check your local Scout Shop to see if they have the workbooks:God & Me: 1st-3rd gradesGod & Family: 4th & 5th gradesGod & Church: 6th-8th gradesGod & Life: 9th-12th gradesLook for a "mentor" guide so you can help your son progress through his workbook. Your pastor may need a copy of the "counselor guide" (which you'll have to buy him, if he's not aware of the program). After your son completes his work, your pastor will need to sign his workbook so you can apply to P.R.A.Y. for his medal. Good luck! Fred Goodwin Protestant Committee on Scouting Alamo Area Council

queenj wrote:What about a non-denominational Christian award? I'm positive that the religion I'm (somewhat) following would not develop their own emblem but I want to give my son a choice if he wants to do this acheivement for the religion section or the other one.As I wrote above, if "they" can get together and sponsor a religious emblem I see no reason why your son couldn't earn it and wear his religious knot. The problem is defining a non-denominational "group" to sponsor the medal. BSA won't do it, as these are non-BSA awards open to Girl Scouts, Campfire, 4-H, etc. Another option is to seek a pastor or priest in one of the more established churches and see if they would mentor your son through the program, which they might be willing to do, especially if they sponsor a Cub Scout Pack themselves. Good luck, Fred Goodwin Protestant Committee on Scouting Alamo Area Council National Episcopal Scouters Association

strawberry switchblade wrote:I don't suppose there is an award for Pagan/Earth-Based faiths, is there?As long they believe in God, they are free to develop their own religious award. Go for it. Fred Goodwin Protestant Committee on Scouting Alamo Area Council

Want to start a new Pack or Troop? Everything you need to know about starting a new unit is outlined in the "New Unit Organization Process" (#34196A) and in the "New Unit Organization Kit" (13-563). You should be able to get copies of these materials from your Council Service Center. Given the importance National and local councils place on starting new units, it is odd that finding these materials online is so difficult. Here is one reference I found to the 12-step process for organizing new units: http://www.baltimorebsa.org/council/committees/images/NewUnitProcess.pdf (if the above URL wraps, try this: http://tinyurl.com/3vh4b) This is a link to a PDF file of the "New Unit Organization Process" (item #34196A), a complete guide to the 12 step process of organizing new units. Many of the 12 steps can be completed by a motivated volunteer who wants to see the new unit established (for example, I started a new Cub Scout Pack in my son's school a year ago, and I accomplished almost every step without the aid of a DE or UC, although they of course supported my efforts). For those interested in starting a new Cub Scout Pack, there is the "Cub Scout Pack Organization Kit" (#13-055), also available from your Council Service Center (unfortunately, I can find no reference to this valuable resource anywhere online). Finally, don't overlook your District Membership Committee; they should be able to provide resources and assistance as you go about organizing your new unit. In fact, pages 14-17 of the "Membership Committee Guide" (33080C) discuss the process of organizing new units (again, not available online as far as I can tell). Here is a link to a PowerPoint presentation I found that appears to be intended as a training overview of the 12-step new unit organization process: http://www.hightowertrail.com/Vanguard/12-StepTrain.pps Good luck organizing your new unit! Fred Goodwin, Organizer: Pack 2003 Alamo Area Council

Sylvia wrote:I just got trained as a religious emblem counselor for the Catholic faith. Other than working with the members of my son's troop, how best to approach other troops? Should I limit contacting other troops to those chartered by a Catholic Church?Sylvia, its great that you want to emphasize the faith element of Scouting! In addition to all of the other great suggestions you've gotten, you might consider putting a poster up at Pow Wow offering your services, because I can see how it might be difficult to reach Catholic boys in non-Catholic units. Also, you might announce yourself at the various district Round Tables. Good luck! Fred Goodwin Alamo Area Council

Very well said. I would hope that if we all follow the Scout Oath and Law, most "netiquette" should come as a natural result.

NWS wrote: First off there is no Explorer Gold award there is a Silver Award in Verturing,. The Venturing Gold has no knot but like Life Scout rank just a waypoint to a higher award. Exploring now is a part of Learning for Life not a part of traditional BSA. There was back in the 50s a Explorers Silver Award or Air Explorers Ace Award and they shares their knot with the Venturing Silver Award. I also can find no reference to a knot for Young American Award. I found this at Mike Walton's website: The present Silver Award knot may be worn by previous holders of any Exploring advancement award less the Quartermaster Award and also by holders of a national or local Council Young American Award, a special award designed to recognize achievements in various areas by young adults (whom may or may not be Exploring members). http://www.mninter.net/~blkeagle/achadv.htm Fred Goodwin

What wonderful stories! May I add one? Last summer, my son and I were driving out to his Webelos resident camp at Bear Creek (near Hunt, TX). He was a little nervous, because we had just moved, had not yet joined a new pack, and were camping with a pack that had invited us along. So we didn't really know anybody. Anyway, as we got off the highway in Kerrville, we stopped at a Luby's for lunch. We didn't get any free meals, but we sure got some nice glances and waves from the people in the restaurant and in the parking lot. As we left, I told my son that it pays to be in uniform because people seem to feel like its OK to wave and be friendly when they otherwise normally would not. He still feels awkward wearing his uniform in public (he's a Webelos II now), but he still remembers that trip! Fred Goodwin Ass't WDL, Pack 66 Alamo Area Council

My staff aplication was approved; I'll be working at the Episcopal Church booth / tent in the Relationships area. If you're in the area, please stop by -- I look forward to meeting all of you! Fred Goodwin National Episcopal Scouters Association http://www.episcopal-scouting.org/

Eagle Scout Hans Zeiger is among ten finalists in the MTV-RNC "Stand Up and Holla!" essay competition: http://www.2004nycgop.org/essaycontest/ Fred Goodwin ACM, Pack 2004 Alamo Area Council

[big_Dog] I believe if a scouter earned the religious emblem as a scout, there is a knot he can wear as an adult. So, in that line of thought, I guess you could call it a "God knot". Don't want to get too much on the "God knot" issue or we'll draw Merlyn in here. I just believe that wearing a knot to let a scout know that you are "gay-friendly" (from the original article) is just trying an end-run around the stance BSA has taken. [/big_Dog] Not to mention the gay-knot is unofficial and is not authorized for wear on a Scouter's uniform. Regardless of the politics behind it, such unofficial knots have no place on the uniform. Fred Goodwin Alamo Area Council

[John-in-KC] We discussed this at PTC last summer, in the conference I attended. Granted, my conference was during Relationships Week, but... [/John-in-KC] John, I was at PTC last summer for "Scouting in the Church's Ministry". Which conference were you in? Fred Goodwin, Episcopal Scouter Alamo Area Council, BSA Diocese of West Texas, ECUSA

John in KC said: It's MORE THAN WORTH THE MONEY to attend Philmont Training Center for the Scouting in the Church's Ministry conference!!! Allow me to second John's endorsement of the PTC Course, "Scouting in the Church's Ministry". I attended last summer and learned a lot. For those who want to see Scouting embraced by more churches, and who want to ensure the faith component of Scouting isn't forgotten, I cannot recommend it highly enough. Fred Goodwin, PCOS Alamo Area Council

FOG said: Many, many, many years ago, when the military still issued shirts without stays in the collar, you used a nifty spring loaded device called a "Spiffy" to hold your collar straight THAT'S IT!! Thanx, FOG, I had totally forgotten what it was called. Now I know what to ask for. Then BP said: Is this what you're looking for ? http://www.muldoons.com/sgarter.html Could be -- I'll check it out. Does anyone here actually try to wear a tie with the leader shirt? I have several green BSA ties, but the collar won't hold its shape and it ends up looking sloppy. Fred Goodwin ACM, Pack 2003 Alamo Area Council

RE: "Orange" Tiger service stars: One more thing I'll leave this dead horse alone: Mike Walton has a discussion of this issue on his webpage, and it is consistent with what FOG and I wrote: http://www.mninter.net/~blkeagle/yearpins.htm **NOTE ON TIGER CUB YEAR PINS**: The BSA has informed local Councils that starting with the 2001 program year, Tiger Cub Scouting will be fully integrated into the Cub Scouting program and will no longer be a stand-alone program. As such, some Councils have already started the transition THIS YEAR (2000) to get ahead of the game, so to speak. This presents a slight problem with awarding the year pin for Tiger Cub Scouts. While your Pack is free to award the tenure stars any way they feel (see comments above), here's the RECOMMENDED WAY to accommodate this: If your Council has chosen to WAIT until August 2001 (the actual date of the consolidation of the Tiger Cub program with the Cub Scout program), then you may continue to award the one year service star (plain or with the number 1 in it, as seen below) with the ORANGE backing. Subsequent year pins are with the YELLOW backing as the person will be a Cub Scout and starts with the ONE year pin (so that a Cub Scout starting his second year should wear two one-year pins: one with an ORANGE backing representing his first year as a Tiger Cub Scout and a one year pin with a YELLOW backing representing his first year as a Cub Scout). Subsequent years he will replace the one year pin with the yellow backing with the two, the three and the four year pin.