fgoodwin

Welcome to the Forums -- how sad for you, the boy who was lost and for all the families involved. My heart goes out to everyone involved in and hurt by this tragedy.

Medals are worn pinned above the left pocket, on the seam where the pocket flap joins the shirt. Medals are worn on formal oscasions. A religious medal earned as a Cub Scout may be worn by the boy as a Boy Scout and later as an adult. The Insignia Guide answers all of these questions.

I'm not aware of anything in the W2S transition materials from National that calls for Webelos dens to be referred to as "patrols" or to have those dens elect a "patrol leader".

Dan, I understand -- I wasn't trying to criticize you.

John, I don't know much about religions other than Christianity, so I couldn't really say which are polytheistic or not. Regarding Shinto, I guess if they want to come up with a religious award, BSA would probably consider it for wear on the uniform. I am not aware of any such award -- but BSA shouldn't be blamed for that. But I can say that religious emblems are available for Buddhists and Hindus, among many others.

Who said anything about condemning them?

Pagan scouting group takes root http://www.registerguard.com/news/2005/12/28/b1.cr.spiralscouts.1228.p1.php http://tinyurl.com/9r2zr By Jeff Wright The Register-Guard Published: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 Five-year-old Jade Rainsong jumps out of his mother's car, looking sharp in his green pressed shirt, tan pants and brown hiking boots. "I've got on my SpiralScout uniform and mud-whompers!" he boasts. Jade, new to the whole scouting experience, races to the door of his 4-year-old buddy, Joey. Inside, the two boys and five other youngsters - three of them girls - prepare for a Saturday afternoon of crafts, snacks and fun. But this is not their parents' Girl Scouts or Boy Scouts - immediately evident when these kids gather around a coffee table and light candles in solemn tribute to earth, water, fire and air. No, this is the SpiralScouts - the pagan version of learning outdoor skills and earning badges. Begun in 2001 in Washington state, SpiralScouts has grown into a movement serving families of various minority faiths in 20 states, Canada and Europe. The newly created Emerald Earth Seekers in Eugene is the organization's third "circle" in Oregon, following the lead of similar groups in Salem and Portland. Karen Glickman is co-leader for the Turtlemoon Hearth, whose members include her son, Jade. Raised near Los Angeles, Glickman was herself a Camp Fire Girl for five years, and remembers loving the camping trips and arts and crafts. "My mom was a co-leader, so I'm kind of following in her footsteps, but in sort of a pagan way," she says. But why enroll her son in SpiralScouts instead of, say, the Boy Scouts? Glickman says the Boy Scouts often have a Christian flavor and, as their name suggests, is for boys only. "I like the alternative religion and the fact that it's co-gender," she says of the SpiralScouts. (The Boy Scouts of America is not strictly a Christian group - there are Scouting opportunities for Jews, Buddhists, Muslims and other faith adherents - but does profess a belief in God. The private organization permits women, but not "avowed homosexuals," to serve in leadership roles.) Glickman, an artist whose work focuses on goddess imagery, says she stumbled across SpiralScouts as she researched pagan parenting resources. She was thrilled to learn that the group originated with the Aquarian Tabernacle Church - a pagan community based in Index, Wash., northeast of Seattle - that she had visited while staying with friends several years ago. The church is known for such pioneering accomplishments as getting the pagan faith known as Wicca recognized as an official religion in Washington state prisons, and establishing a Wiccan theological seminary. Designed as a nature lore and woodcraft program, SpiralScouts is intended for families of any minority faith, or no faith at all. Like more traditional scouting groups, the organization offers pins and badges that youth can earn in such areas as music, nutrition, community service, academics, birding, drumming, cooking, gardening, geology and global ecology. There are three program levels: Fireflies for children ages 3 through 8, SpiralScouts for ages 9 through 13, and PathFinders for ages 14 through 18. Just getting off the ground in Eugene, the organization has three "hearths" ("dens" in Cub Scouts lingo) for Fireflies and a waiting list of older youth hoping to join the first SpiralScouts hearth once they find an adult leader. At the recent Turtlemoon Hearth gathering, 7-year-old Aubrey Gomes-Pereira is asked to lead the other children in the Fireflies Promise: "I promise to serve the wise ones, to honor and respect Mother Earth, to be helpful and understanding toward all people, and always keep love in my heart." After a game in which they pretend they are frogs - hopping, ribbeting and eating flies - the children move to a larger table for the day's craft project: making neck cords out of green, tan and brown strands that will become part of their official SpiralScouts uniforms. "The three colors represent diversity, and we're going to braid them into unity," co-leader Val Gomes-Pereira, mother to Aubrey and Joey, tells the children. Eight-year-old Trinity Meyer braids her cord diligently, then proudly wraps it around her neck. But she looks disappointed a few minutes later when she learns that the next task she was awaiting - sewing a first badge onto her uniform - must wait for a future meeting. Trinity and her younger sister, Clover, have responded positively to the SpiralScouts concept, says their mom, Nancy Silvers. "They really like it, they're always very willing to come - and they let me know when they don't like something," she says. Silvers says she grew up as a marginal Presbyterian who spent a lot of her childhood exploring nature or hanging in the family barn with her horse. When she discovered Earth-centered pagan traditions in her late teens, "it just spoke to my heart," she says. The chance to share that with her daughters, and likeminded parents, is a blessing. "This is definitely a good fit for us," she says. "It's a good reinforcement of our family values." -------------------------------------------------------------------- SPIRALSCOUTS More information Nationally: Visit www.spiralscouts.org

Dan, is there a reason you couldn't start one?

Scouting for alternatives Youth group is rooted in pagan beliefs http://www.metrotimes.com/editorial/story.asp?id=8709 by Monica Price 1/11/2006 Its a little before noon on a Saturday, and seven children are gathered around a table in a cozy Troy home, scribbling with markers. Many are dressed in uniform, sporting neatly pressed khakis and crisp green polo shirts. The boys and girls, ages 3 to 10, are busily decorating a box theyll later fill with dry goods. Its part of their latest community service initiative, and will be donated to Compassion Pregnancy Centers (an organization that works with pregnant women in high-risk situations) in Clinton Township. While the kids color, five moms, two dads and two scout leaders look on. The scent of home-cooked comfort food wafts in from the kitchen. Its a scene so wholesome that youd never imagine most of the parents prefer their families names not be printed in this article. Why? Theyre afraid someone will accuse them of being satanists. Founded in 1999 in Index, Wash., the Spiral Scouts was initially conceived as the youth group for the Aquarian Tabernacle Church (ATC). The ATC is the first Wiccan church to receive full legal status. According to its Web site (aquatabch.org), its a coven dedicated to providing religious services and support to the larger Wiccan community. But when the Spiral Scouts began a national expansion in 2001, the organization avoided rigid identification with any one particular faith. Though open about its basis in pagan beliefs and practices, Spiral Scouts is described more generally on its Web site (spiralscouts.org) as a program for girls and boys of minority faiths working, growing and learning together. Janet Callahan, 29, program director for Spiral Scouts International, says the group draws members from many religious backgrounds. We have Wiccans, Druids and a variety of spiritual people who dont necessarily identify themselves with a certain group, she says. From its grassroots beginnings, the organization has now spread to 20 states, Canada and Europe. Chapters exist as far away as Switzerland and also thrive, according to Callahan, in places you wouldnt expect, like Arkansas and Oklahoma. To date, 127 different groups have been chartered, and Callahan estimates that around 60 are currently active, involving about 600 people ranging in age from preschoolers to teenagers to parents. Groups can be structured in two ways: as a hearth, which is composed of a single family, or as a circle, which has a wider membership. Seven circles currently operate in Michigan, including the Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, Portage and Ann Arbor areas, and theres a statewide Web site, michiganspiralscouts.org. James OConnell, 14, of Plymouth is a member of the Oaken Grove Circle, which operates in Washtenaw and western Wayne counties. He has been participating in Spiral Scouts for about five years, practically since it started. OConnell, who also has two younger brothers in the program, says his favorite part of Spiral Scouts is his circles yearly summer camping trip to Sleepy Hollow State Park. We camp out, walk around the woods, look at things, and just try to figure out what the worlds like. When asked about the most important lesson he has learned from Spiral Scouts, OConnell responds, Respect the earth. Dont trash it, because if you do, it will bite you later. Callahan is one of the scout leaders for the White Pine Circle, whose members come from Troy, Royal Oak and surrounding areas. The majority of the families in the White Pine Circle discovered Spiral Scouts online, through pagan message boards and mailing lists. On many levels, Spiral Scouts is very similar to mainstream scouting organizations. Members wear uniforms, attend monthly meetings, camp and learn wilderness skills. They perform community service and earn merit badges in subjects ranging from sculpture to ecology and nutrition. The organizational structure of the group is also comparable to its better-known counterparts, with different levels of membership corresponding to a childs age. Youngsters aged 3 to 6 are known as Fireflies and those aged 9 to 13 are termed Spiral Scouts. Pathfinders, the highest level of membership, denotes teenagers aged 14 to 18. But where the Boy and Girl Scouts recite a pledge to do my duty to God and my country, a Spiral Scout promises, among other things, to respect living things and respect the beauty in all creations. Additionally, Spiral Scout merit badges are set up in five categories earth, air, fire, water and spirit that correspond to the five points of the Wiccan pentacle. When asked if Spiral Scouts has ever been formally contacted by the Boy Scouts of America, Callahan reports that the organization received a letter, accompanied by a cease-and-desist order that stated that the word scouts was trademarked at a federal level. She says a response from the Spiral Scouts attorney followed, and no further interaction between the two groups has occurred. At press time, the Boys Scouts had not returned Metro Times phone calls. One key difference between the Spiral Scouts and the mainstream scouts is that membership is not gender-specific. In fact, each circle is required to have both a male and female leader, who must first undergo extensive background checks. Callahan says this openness is essential. She explains, Often it seems when you segregate children according to gender, the mentality arises that theyll either do girl things or boy things. In the real world, its necessary to work with both men and women. How are you going to do that if youre just off in your own little box? Chris, who prefers not to give her last name, agrees. The 37-year-old massage therapist and yoga instructor from Clarkston has a 7-year-old daughter in Spiral Scouts. Chris identifies herself as spiritual, and says earth-based practices fit her belief system. I believe that Spiral Scouts provides an excellent way to draw upon both male and female energies, she says. Having diversity in both ages and sexes is very important. After the crafts project has been completed, the children gather around while Chris reads them a tale explaining the winter solstice, or yule, in terms of the sun becoming more and more tired as the year goes on. The kids then dig into the food, which many helped prepare on their way to earning their cooking badges. Once the meal has been cleared away, the awards ceremony begins. As Callahan reads off each members name and lists the honors theyve received, the children two boys and four girls walk up and light a white candle, which the younger ones hand off to more steady-handed parents. Callahan says, The important thing about Spiral Scouts is that its not about not being some other group. Were our own holistic group that exists for the kids and the families. That said, were just like any other youth organization. Monica Price is a former editorial intern for Metro Times. Send comments to letters@metrotimes.com

I think the reason that "religious stuff" is in BL is because a Scout is Reverent and he does his Duty to God. I would not be offended by stories from other faiths, but the fact is, the vast majority (85-90-95%? pick a number) of Scouts are Judeo-Christian-Muslim.(This message has been edited by fgoodwin)

Dan, thanx for those examples.

Adam, welcome to the Forums. Thanx for your explanation. I don't mean to be argumentative, but can you give other examples of genetically determined traits in identical twins where the correspondence is 50% or less? Does it happen with eye, hair or skin color, for example?

Packsaddle, I assume your knowledge of genetics goes "beyond mid-digital hair". So perhaps you can explain why twin studies do not have a 100% correspondence when one identical twin of the pair is gay, but the other is not. I am not aware of any studies of identical twins in which the correspondence is 100%. If homosexuality is genetically based, how can the correspondence for identical twins be anything less than 100%?

Berkeley accused of infringing scouts' speech http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/13586920.htm http://tinyurl.com/avnor DAVID KRAVETS Associated Press SAN FRANCISCO - The city of Berkeley, which was celebrated in the 1960s as the home of the Free Speech Movement, now finds itself accused of violating the First Amendment rights of a group of young sailors connected to the Boy Scouts of America. Citing a violation of its nondiscrimination policy, the City Council revoked the free berthing the Berkeley Sea Scouts received for six decades. The city targeted the group because the Boy Scouts bar atheist and gay members. The council's actions were to be tested Tuesday during oral arguments before the California Supreme Court in a case that challenges the legality of removing or withholding public subsidies from groups whose ideals run counter to the government's. Both sides maintain legal precedent is on their side. City officials told the Sea Scouts in 1998 that the group could retain its berthing subsidy, valued at about $500 monthly, if it either broke from the Boy Scouts or disavowed the policy against gays and atheists. The Sea Scouts contend the group was unfairly singled out because the city did not make the same demands on the two other nonprofits receiving the subsidized berthing privileges at the city-owned Berkeley Marina, the Cal Sailing Club and the Berkeley Yacht Club. The Sea Scouts, which teaches sailing, carpentry and plumbing, never disavowed the membership policy and said it wouldn't break from the Boy Scouts. Instead, it adopted a "don't ask, don't tell" policy, promising not to ask members or leaders whether they were gay or believed in God. The city withheld the subsidy and was sued by the Sea Scouts, which alleged its free speech and freedom of association rights had been violated. Lower courts ruled against the group, which has about 40 members and had as many as 100 before the subsidy was removed. The 1st District Court of Appeal in San Francisco said Berkeley could use public subsidies to further a public agenda. Backed by the Pacific Legal Foundation, the Sea Scouts asked California's justices to intervene, citing a 2000 U.S. Supreme Court ruling that upheld the Boy Scouts' membership policy. "Our basic argument is the city is punishing these kids for exercising their constitutional right to associate with the Boy Scouts," foundation attorney Harold Johnson said. "If they're gonna charge you for exercising your constitutional rights, is that punishment? Yes." The Sea Scouts docks one boat at the Berkeley Marina, where the group now pays a $500 monthly fee. The group removed two others because it could not afford the rent, Johnson said. Berkeley contends the young sailors were not unlawfully punished. The city pointed out that the U.S. Supreme Court in 1984 said the Department of Education could withhold funding to schools that discriminate on the basis of gender, and ruled the year before that Bob Jones University could be stripped of its "charitable" tax status because of its admission policy barring black students. "The city sought to ensure that the services subsidized by Berkeley taxpayers would be available to all Berkeley citizens free of invidious discrimination," City Attorney Manuela Albuquerque said. Johnson said the Berkeley Sea Scouts does not discriminate, despite its affiliation with the Boy Scouts. "Berkeley has disregarded the constitutional principle that government cannot retaliate against citizens for associating with an organization simply because government does not like that organization," Johnson said. Johnson noted that in 1967 the California Supreme Court overturned a Los Angeles County ordinance that required potential municipal employees to take an oath repudiating groups that advocated overthrowing the state and federal governments. The U.S. Supreme Court in 1972 also said it could not prohibit a local chapter of the Students for Democratic Society from using a Connecticut college's campus facilities because it was affiliated with what the university deemed a national group "likely to cause violent acts of disruption," according to Johnson. The Sea Scouts case has attracted widespread attention from groups on both sides. The American Civil Rights Union, the Church of the Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, The California Catholic Conference, other religious groups and the Boy Scouts of America are backing the Sea Scouts. The American Civil Liberties Union, California Attorney General Bill Lockyer, the city of San Francisco and the Anti-Defamation League sided with Berkeley. The case is Evans v. Berkeley, S112621.

I know its not like real men read the manual, so I guess I hafta turn-in my "real man" card. But page 46 of the Insignia Guide has a drawing of medals being worn by pinning them over the knots. Ok, now you "real men" can get back to your discussion without benefit of cracking the book . . .

Jamboree deaths classified accidental http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD%2FMGArticle%2FRTD_BasicArticle&cid=1128769160057 http://tinyurl.com/dd32k Army probe finds no criminal culpability in four electrocutions BY KIRAN KRISHNAMURTHY TIMES-DISPATCH STAFF WRITER Saturday, January 7, 2006 FREDERICKSBURG -- An investigation into the electrocution of four Boy Scout leaders killed while erecting a tent at the 2005 National Scout Jamboree will classify the deaths as accidental, the Army said yesterday. "We investigate for criminal culpability, and we found none," said Chris Grey, a spokesman for the Army's Criminal Investigation Command at Fort Belvoir, which investigated the July 25 incident at Fort A.P. Hill in Caroline County. Witnesses said the Scout leaders from the Western Alaska Council were fatally injured when the center pole of a large tent they were helping contractors put up touched overhead electrical lines on the first day of the quadrennial event. Grey would not say whether the Army's five-month probe determined why the tent was being erected beneath power lines. "I can't get into those details" until the final report is concluded, he said. The Army will officially close its investigation in the next couple of weeks, Grey said. The preliminary finding announced yesterday will not change unless officials are made aware of "very compelling" evidence that indicates the deaths were not accidental, he added. The accident claimed the lives of Ronald H. Bitzer, 58; Mike Lacroix, 42; and Michael J. Shibe, 49, all of Anchorage; and Scott Edward Powell, 57, who had moved from Anchorage to Perrysville, Ohio, in 2004. Shibe's twin sons and Lacroix's son, all 14, each witnessed the deaths of his father. Reached by telephone in Anchorage, Lacroix's wife, Carol, said yesterday that she did not know what to make of the Army's finding without seeing a more complete report. "It depends on what you categorize as an accident. A car accident is an accident," she said, acknowledging that fault is often assigned by courts following automobile accidents. Bitzer's wife, Karen, referred questions to a family spokesman and attorney, Ken Schoolcraft, who said "unintentional" could be one interpretation of accidental. Schoolcraft said he does not believe any of the Scout leader families has filed a civil lawsuit in the case. He did not rule out the possibility that the Bitzer family might pursue legal action. "When you take men such as these out of families, there's an ongoing life, and it's very, very difficult. There are still children involved," said Schoolcraft, whose local Troop No. 129 included Bitzer and Shibe. The four Scout victims were assisting two workers from Fishersville-based Tents & Events Inc., which has since closed. Brett Hayes, who owned Tents & Events and still operates RentQuick.com, did not return phone calls yesterday. Michael E. Harman, a Richmond attorney representing the company, said he always viewed the deaths as "a tragic accident." "I never, ever thought that there had been any criminal conduct by anyone," Harman said. Gregg Shields, a Boy Scouts of America spokesman, said the organization will request a copy of the Army's report. "We look forward to gleaning any information we can," he said. BSA officials are reviewing safety procedures in light of the accident, as well as the organization's response to a heat wave that felled more than 300 Scouts and others waiting for an appearance by President Bush at the 2005 jamboree. Ken Perrotte, a Fort A.P. Hill spokesman, said the Army conducts an extensive review of safety and operations following each jamboree. "The goal is to capture lessons learned," he said. The federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration is conducting a separate review of the tent accident. That investigation is scheduled to be completed this month. The Army's criminal investigators classify deaths in one of four categories: homicide, which includes criminal negligent homicide; accidental; natural; or suicide. "If there was [criminal] responsibility, it would be categorized as something different" than an accident, Grey said. The Western Alaska Council organized two jamboree troops, 711 and 712, and hired a contractor to put up large tents in which the troops could dine, meet and escape the heat during the 10-day event, which draws nearly 40,000 Scouts, leaders and staffers. The council had also hired a contractor for the 2001 jamboree. Other troops from far-flung places brought tents and other large equipment by other means. Hawaiians, for example, shipped tents by boat to the East Coast. Another Alaska contingent, with boys from Juneau and Fairbanks, brought their tents on an airplane. Like many of the other jamboree troops, the Juneau/Fairbanks troops used picnic-style canopies no more than 8 or 10 feet tall to provide shelter and a place to eat. By comparison, the Western Alaskans' rented tents were to stand about three times as high. Brian Anderson, a Scout leader from Utah who witnessed the accident, said the Tents & Events contractors seemed to erect the first of two large tents at the top of the Western Alaskan's sloping campsite without much problem. "The second one seemed to go a little slower than the first," he told The Times-Dispatch a few days after the accident. Bill Haines, the Western Alaska Council's executive leader, said previously that the two contractors asked the Alaska leaders for help when the second canopy was ready to be raised. Haines did not return phone calls seeking comment yesterday. Anderson said he believes the rolling hill was a "compounding factor" that contributed to the difficulty the contractors had erecting the tent. He also said he did not see a spotter outside the tent, directing the men as they raised the metal pole from beneath the canopy. "You get under that tent working and you have blinders on," he said. BSA officials and other Scouts have said Scouts are taught not to erect tents under power lines. Shields and Perrotte have said the Army and the Scouts consult on a master plan, but they have been unable to say who has ultimate authority or responsibility, or how detailed the plan is. The next jamboree is scheduled to be held at A.P. Hill in 2010, to coincide with the 100th anniversary of Scouting in the United States. The Justice Department, meanwhile, has appealed to the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals in Chicago a ruling last summer that held the Pentagon could no longer spend government money to ready A.P. Hill for the jamboree. The ruling from a federal judge in Chicago stems from an American Civil Liberties Union lawsuit filed on behalf of a United Methodist minister. The lawsuit contends government funding for the event is unconstitutional because the Scouts discriminate on the basis of religion by requiring Scouts to pledge a "duty to God." The event has been held at Fort A.P. Hill since 1981. Contact staff writer Kiran Krishnamurthy at kkrishnamurthy@timesdispatch.com or (540) 371-4792.

Herms, I feel your pain. Many of us wear several hats, but are not rich enough to purchase several complete uniforms for those various roles. When I started out, I had one uniform for my primary role (Pack CC) and I wore that uniform for my various other roles (including Cub Training Coordinator for my district). I did not buy nor wear a District Committee uniform and no one ever complained about my wearing a unit uniform while I was on district business. If anyone had complained, I was fully prepeard to quit the district position. Since that time, I've acquired a second uniform for my new primary role (UC). Now, I wear that uniform whenever I'm in other roles (e.g., ASM for my son's troop). Again, so far, no one has complained that I'm "out of uniform" when I'm doing things with my son's troop; if they do, I'll tell them what they can do with their ASM job!

I have that box set of prints. I don't recall off hand exactly how many prints are in my copy -- but the "prints" aren't the originals. They are printed copies of the original artworks. So, I guess I'm saying $800 sounds a mite high. I bought mine a couple of years ago, but I think I paid around $75 for it. Why are you looking to value it? If you're a Scouter, I'd treasure the box set and not worry about the value.

Well technically, the institution head (IH) is supposed to appoint the charter organization representative (COR) who is in turn supposed to appoint the committee chair (CC). The CC and COR recruit members of the committee (MCs) and the committee is supposed to recruit the cubmaster (CM). Does it always work that way? Of course not -- but since the IH and COR have the final say over all adult leadership positions, and since it is the job of the CC and COR to appoint the MCs, I don't see the MCs "voting out" the CC -- only the COR or IH can remove a CC. But realistically speaking, if the tension among the adults is so bad they can't work together, then the COR should be approached to do something about it. Does your pack have a unit commissioner (UC)? If so, invite the UC to observe a few of your committee meetings to see if he or she can suggest some ways to improve how you operate.

rixkidz, you were told correctly -- the COR may legally register as CC or MC, but not as CM, ACM, DL or ADL. The IH may register as CM, ACM, DL, or ADL (as long as the IH isn't also the COR), or as COR and CC / MC. IH is not a registered position in BSA, therefore if the IH registers as a den leader, he or she is not double-registered, and so does not violate the rule against dual-registration. Only the COR may dual register, and then only as COR and CC or COR and MC. If the IH is also the COR, the IH can be COR and CC or the IH can be COR and MC. But this is not three BSA positions because IH doesn't count. Clear as mud?

RE: Pack number on a COR uniform I suppose if your CO sponsors only a Cub Scout Pack, I don't see why you couldn't wear the unit number. But technically, the COR is a member of the district, not of the unit. Now, if your COR sponsors multiple units, and suppose each has a different number (not the preferred approach, but it happens), then what number does the COR wear? I think that's why the COR doesn't wear a unit number.

Nick, I usually stay out of these discussions because there is nothing to be gained by wading in. Having said that, it is a pet peeve of mine when people "play the race card" by comparing sexual orientation to race. The fact is, race (whatever that is) is not a decision, it is a trait. If you did a sudy of identical twins, I would wager that for every black male in the study, 100% of the identical twins would also be black. And white twins would be white. Asian twins would be Asian, etc. OTOH, there is no such clear-cut correspondence among identical twins where at least one claims to be homosexual. That is, according to results of studies of identical twins, some 50% or more of identical twins of gay men (or of lesbian women) are not themselves gay (or lesbian). How can one explain that lack of correspondence if "gayness" is innate, hereditary or otherwise genetically-based? Until that correspondence reaches 100%, I find it difficult to accept that "gayness" is hereditary. And until "gayness" is found to be determined at birth and therefore not changeable, I think drawing comparisons between the way BSA (or even society at large) deals with sexual orientation vs. race is premature.

O'Reilly: I made mistake http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-oreilly_21met.ART0.North.Edition2.b074dc5.html http://tinyurl.com/8cpxm Plano ISD: Talk show host wrong about banned clothing colors 08:21 AM CST on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 By KIM BREEN / The Dallas Morning News National talk show host Bill O'Reilly acknowledged to his television audience Tuesday that he made a mistake when he said a Plano school banned Christmas-colored clothing. But he went on to cite allegations made in a year-old federal lawsuit against the district that he said have landed Plano "right in the middle of the Christmas controversy." Mr. O'Reilly put Plano schools in the national spotlight this month when he said a school banned students from wearing red and green because they are Christmas colors. "That's flat-out fascism," he told viewers of The O'Reilly Factor on the Fox News Channel. School district attorney Richard Abernathy demanded a retraction last week. School officials said there has never been such a policy. Mr. O'Reilly said Tuesday that the lawsuit includes an allegation that parents were told to bring only white supplies to a school party. "Now I made a mistake a few days ago when I said clothing was included in that party dictum," Mr. O'Reilly said. "Clothing was not included. It was colors of plates and cupcakes and things like that." He named other allegations that have been made against the district in the lawsuit filed by parents, including one that a student was not allowed to hand out to classmates "Jesus Loves Me" pencils. Karla Oliver, executive director for government and community relations at the school district, said she was not able to see the show Tuesday night and could not comment about what Mr. O'Reilly said. "One thing that we've stood by all along is that you are certainly entitled to your own opinions, and we respect that," she said. "But you're not entitled to your own facts." Mr. O'Reilly said Mr. Abernathy declined to be on the program and interviewed Greg Knapp of KLIF (570 AM), which airs The O'Reilly Radio Factor in Dallas. "I'm here in New York. I don't know what they're doing in Plano," Mr. O'Reilly said, adding that he used to live in Richardson. Mr. Knapp said he heard from parents who complained that Christmas items were banned from Plano parties. Mr. O'Reilly asked: "Is there or was there an anti-Christmas bias in any of the schools up there as far as you could tell?" Mr. Knapp replied: "Absolutely." Mr. O'Reilly said the facts would come out in court. He expressed surprise the issue was coming up in North Texas. "It's amazing because that's not a liberal crazy area" like Berkeley, Calif., or Austin, he said. Mr. O'Reilly also mentioned in the show that Plano schools Superintendent Doug Otto on Tuesday "changed his policy." Ms. Oliver said no new policies were created Tuesday. She said the district did reiterate to principals that schools cannot prohibit red and green decorations from school winter parties, many of which went on as usual Tuesday in Plano elementary schools. E-mail kbreen@dallasnews.com

I don't know anything about banning poinsettias from a public school, but I do know that red poinsettias were banned from the St. Paul City Hall / Ramsey County Courthouse in December, 2001: Petty poinsettia problem pinched; War of holiday flowers won't be waged again at City Hall.(NEWS)(Around St. Paul) Joe Kimball. Sing joyfully; there'll be no repeat of last year's poinsettia pandemonium at City Hall this holiday season. Ramsey County officials promise that red poinsettias will be included in the holiday decorations placed around the giant God of Peace statue in the great hall of the City Hall/Courthouse downtown. And red, white and blue ribbons will be attached to the columns around the hall, along with recognition of all the religious and ethnic holidays celebrated at this time of year. Last year, all heck broke loose when red poinsettias were banished from the hall because county officials declared they had a religious connotation. White poinsettias, though, were allowed. That set off a major battle, dubbed the War of the Poinsettias, as talk-show hosts from around the country railed against the county's floral attempt to be politically correct. Finally, some courthouse workers (who might or might not wear black robes by day) smuggled in a raft of the red-leafed plants and placed them amidst the white poinsettia display. Until Thursday's ruling in favor of red poinsettias, some of those same guardians of truth, justice and the Christmas way stood ready to smuggle in another bunch of plants this year. Minneapolis Star-Tribune, Nov 22, 2002 p4B As far as I can tell, the article isn't available on the public Internet; I found it using "Infotrac" from my public library.

It's kinda sparse (went online Dec 15?) and I don't see any comments on it as of yet, but it appears that Scoutstuff now has a product blog: http://scoutstuff.typepad.com/ You can browse without registering, but you'll need a Typekey ID (free) in order to post any comments. Fred Goodwin, UC Alamo Area Council