emb021

Have to think its also a bad idea. For Venturing, Roundtables should be attended by both the adults and the youth. How can they attend Venturing Roundtable if they are having a meeting. And once a month doesn't sound like a good idea. Either weekly or bi-weekly are the way to go.

"I thought I read somewhere that they were fewer than 20 QMs a year. " I've heard for years the average was about 15 or so a year. "2)To be honest QM is actually harder IMHO, yep you heard me HARDER, to earn than Eagle." And that shouldn't be surprising. What too many scouter don't understand, is that the awards were written to different groups of scouts. The Boy Scout advancement program was written to the reading/ability level of a 13 year old. The Venturing & Sea Scout program was written to the reading/ability level of about a 17 year old. Which is funny when you consider the number of scouters who get bent out of shape about 13 year old Eagles and wanting them to get it around 17...

"It use to be you could wear it for one year after the event (of course I can't find the source now, but it was from National and defined "current" as upcoming or in the past year)." I have never heard that. It was always the way that Jambos were more or less a permanent part of your uniform, as few people went to more then one. What was limited was the wearing of Jambo Shoulder patches & troop numbers. These were to be worn 6 months before & after the event. While I don't mind JSP worn longer, I do get sick and tired of people wearing the jambo troop number once the Jamboree is over. Please go back to your normal troop numbers. Also, I always viewed foreign jamborees as the same as a BSA jamboree, and that you could wear them above the right pocket. Its a "national jamboree", right?

Have to agree with evmori. In most organizations, members are either GIVEN a hardcopy of the organizations rules (bylaws, standing rules, officer lists, membership list, etc). My parliamentarian organizations publish these on a regular basis and ALL members are provided with a copy (am sure our membership fees cover the cost of these). Other groups atleast put their rules on their website for all to get, &/or make hardcopies available for sale in their catalog. If the BSA would follow this, they would need to put these doc up on the National website and make them for sale in thru ScoutStuff, WHICH THEY USED TO DO in the past. This isn't just something out of line with other scouting orgs. This something out of line with OTHER ORGANIZATIONS.

"The insignia guide mentions the wearing of a "current" patch in the said location. My question (just out of personal curiosity) is... Is this an acceptable practice so long as you were a registered participant of that event at the time or is the most recent year/design the only appropriate model that should be displayed?" Actually, I checked the current Insignia Guide (2009 printing to be exact), and it no longer says "current". Its ALWAYS been acceptable practice to wear a past jamboree patch that you are entitled to (ie you were a participant or staff). I've been to seven jamborees, and I have shirts with those past jamboree patches on them.

"The Scouter's Training Award is actually for Roundtable Staff (http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34169-60.pdf). The Boy Scout Leader's Training Award has been that way since 2006 at least (according to the publication date of http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34169-55.pdf). Same medal and square knot for both, however." Its the Scouter's Training Award, and can be earned by several groups of people: * Boy Scout leaders (SM, ASM, MC, CC) * Venturing leaders (Advisor, Associate Advisor, MC, CC) * Sea Scout leaders (Skipper, Mate, MC, CC) * Varsity Scout leaders (Coach, Assistant Coach, MC, CC) * Roundtable Staff and I think District Committee members the same knot/medal, just with the different knot devices. this has been the case for freaking decades, so why all the hubbub???

"Do we have pictures of what the things look like to recognize bronze, silver, gold? How noticeable will a given level of accomplishment be?" Nope. I would think for cost/simplicity, that have different color borders on the patch would be the way to go.

"Where is the Journey to Excellence website where we're now supposed to enter service projects and service hours?" Am not aware of any such thing. I had seen the term "journey to excellence" in relation to the next quality unit program coming out in 2011. As noted, the Good Turn for America program is still running thru 2010. It could be that National will replace this with "Journey to Excellence" for 2011 to who knows, so you could be just jumping the gun a little.

"So, although there may be flaws in the current WB approach (and maybe the course should have been renamed so as to avoid mis-perceptions about what it is, and isn't), I don't think that simply throwing out the cub leaders is necessarily the right answer, either." If anyone said 'let's toss out the cub leaders', I didn't hear it. And (not aimed at you) I get a little annoyed when I speak of the need of having program-specific WB courses that some think that means kicking out the cub scout leader. I want the cub scout leaders to have a great, advanced leadership course for them, just as I want the same for boy scout leaders, venturing leaders, etc. When I went to BSLWB, it really pumped me up about boy scouting, and I and the other leaders in my troop made changes for the better in our troop. I want that same thing for leaders of all programs. But, IMO, National's 'program-neutral' "one size fits all" isn't the solution.

"Why can Sea Scouts demand attendance for advancement, but not Boy Scouts?" Because that's how they've always done it since the time of Cmd Keane setting up the requirements. A better question is why don't we do this for Boy Scouts. I also like how it was the Sea Scouts who developed a quality unit program in the form of "Flagships" at council, regional, and national level, which was later extended to all senior unit. Only MUCH later did national do something similiar for packs and troops (in the 70s I believe), but didn't bother with multiple levels. Now the upcoming 2011 performance recognition program has 3 levels.

Thought others might want to learn of this. "Making the Most of Yourself" is a book first published back in the 30s which reprinted several of CSE James West's columns from Boys' Life magazine. It seems that his great-grandson has put out a fascimile paperback reprint edition of the book, and with approval of the BSA, it has the BSA100 logo on the front, and a brief note by Bob Mazzuca on the back. You can order it from on-line bookstores, such as Amazon for about $12. The ISBN is 978-0578038889. Not sure why National Supply doesn't carry some.

As I recalled, determining that you completed your ticket was between you and your TC. I know with the course I was at, I just had to tell the CD et al that the person had completed their ticket. I didn't require any heavy duty stuff. And AIR from my time as a participant, it wasn't that much different. I would say the process seems to be: * work your ticket (good idea to keep your TC in the loop) * once finished your ticket items, inform your TC (if you did the first step, they shouldn't be surprised) * the TC informs the CD that you've finished * work with your TC to arrange your beading

"At one time there was separate courses for Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts." Actually, there used to be four separate courses for Boy Scout leaders, Cub Scout trainers (but NOT unit-level cub scout leaders), Explorer leaders, and Varsity Scout leaders. The Explorer WB course only existed in the 50s. Later in the 80s or so, Explorer leaders out west developed a course for them due to the absense of WB, which was called ELI (Explorer Leader Institute), later ACE (Advanced Concepts in Exploring). Sea Scout Leaders created Seabadge to met their needs. "The BS course was taught at council level and the CS course was taught at the region level." Toward the end, this was so. At first, WB was ONLY available at Schiff and Philmont for council-level people. Later, as the number of WB-trained people, WB was pushed out to cluster-council courses and later council courses. Am sure that due to the focus of the Cub Scout Training Course to just a small segment of the CS world, there wasn't enought people to do council-level CSTWB. "Powder Horn is a Resource Course, it is not Skills instruction,its not Leadership Theory, its how to present the activities of the Ranger Award in your area." True. But not for long. National, again due to its attitude of 'program neutrality' is changing that in PH to make it less Venturing-specific/Ranger Award specific, making it a more generic high adventure resource course for Boy Scout & Venturing leaders.

Seems to me that by doing this they don't have to bother with a person or group assigning numbers (as its been), but a system that automatically generates the course number.

"Has anyone ever contacted anyone up high in National or Council about forming courses better to train Scouters..? I've though about doing something, and my DE was for it." Godd luck with that. National is on this 'program neutrality' mindset when it comes to training. WB/PTC are looked at as the program-neutral leadership training for ALL scouters. NYLT/NAYLE are looked at as the program-neutral leadership training for ALL older youth (ie boy scouts & venturers). They are in the process of re-writing NYLT & NAYLE to strip out all the boy scout specific stuff. They expect any program specific stuff to be in the lower courses (Scoutmasters-specific, Venturin-specific for the adults, Troop Leader Training/Crew Leader Training for the youth). Personally, I think its a mistake as I feel that the youth would better benefit from taking an advanced leadership course where they are in an idealized unit (troop or crew as it may be), rather then in a generic grouping.

"This is why we have the various National committees, made up of volunteers. It is these volunteers who you need to convince if you want changes made. Or if you really want to influence change, work your way onto one of the national committees." In most similiar organizations, the members of the org make up such committees and are the ones (under the direction of the elected leaders of the org) who make the decisions and such. Sadly, in the BSA the professionals seem to run the show above the unit level, and too often the various committees above the council (and even some of the council & district ones) are very insiliar and cliquesh, making it very difficult for someone with drive and new ideas to get involved. While what Beavah says is correct about SOME people on such committees (out of touch with youth, no long involved with units, etc), I can say from experience its not true of all.

The necker, slide, and hat never had requirements, but the international activity patch did. But it looks like now National says that "Specific requirements are developed by the local council or its districts with council approval", which is a change. Not sure when that happened. Am sure I have some form in my collection of documents with the full requirements. AIR, the IAP had required that included participating in an international activity. being upset as a kid is why I never liked the fact that the BSA EVER set such requirements on the WC.

Pretty much in all NSO, everyone wore the WC. For whatever reason, the BSA made it an earned item, and one that few could earn. For those upset, there IS the International Participation award. I found it funny, that the uniform shirts of the BSP (philippines), they embroider their logo on one pocket, and the world crest on another. I still don't see why the BSA couldn't provide a stock of WC patches to their shirt manufactorer, like they do with the american flag patches, to put on all uniforms.

"In my humble opinion, I am questioning why you would grant a unit leader an award of merit (be it ULAM, or anything else) when they choose what parts of the program they want to follow? Now I'm not saying we all have to live by the strict letter of the policies, but generally staying close is a good idea." Keep in mind that the ULAM (and its predecessor) has clearly defined requirements. If one is NOT following the program, one really ISN'T eligable for it. Its more then just a 'we think you're a great unit leader' award. But, sadly, I don't know if the PTB review the applications that come in for this and weed out the ones that clearly didn't met the requirements.

"1. When did Youth Protection Training debut? I don't remember things like the 2-deep rule from when I was a kid, which wasn't that long ago." late 1980s. I recall having to go thru the first version of YPT around that time (we're talking 88, 89 or so) "2. Similarly...Okay, I know the girls part of the "God, Gays, and Girls" issue triumvirate has always been a nagging issue with Scouting since the Movement began, because boys often as not have sisters. But I do not recall (and I was pretty politically/news-aware, or at least conscious of politics and the news) the other two issues when I was a Scout. Which was, hey, 15-16 years ago? Did they only become issues with Dale v BSA and similar, which seemed to come out of the blue when it was decided in 2000? " Nope. The issues started to come up around the late 80s. You had people making an issue of people must have a religious belief, and not allowing girls in the Boy Scouts, and issues of gays. Dale vs BSA came later. "3. Does the Scouting movement have any sort of archives? I know there's the museum in Texas for BSA...But are there any sort of research archives, either for the BSA or for WOSM?" We have an archive as part of the museum. We also have a museum/archives at Philmont- the Seton Museum. No idea what WOSM has. "More specifically: I get that the Boy Scouts of America is a C corporation in form, legally a DC Corporation by the Congressional Charter - the same type of corporation legally as the Red Cross (in terms of non-profits) or Coca-Cola (in terms of for-profit companies). Is it for-profit or non-profit?" The BSA is a non-profit corporation, litte different then Red Cross, Toastmasters, etc. "The local councils - Okay, so...Legally, are they owned by BSA National as subisidiaries? Are they even incorporated separately from the BSA? Are they owned by others and then licensed by the BSA?" They are locally chartered organization, but answers to National. Little different then local clubs/chapters of national organizations which are local established. "About that Charter - Yeah...Other than the Report to the Nation PR thing every year, what impact does it have?" The Charter was done to give us legal protection. That's all it does. Keep in mind that the BSA was established BEFORE we got that charter. Not having the charter does not make us cease to exist or the like. "Kind of related - Til the 50s or so, BSA was headquartered in New York, if I remember right. Then they moved to New Brunswick, NJ, not too far from me actually (45 min away). Then, in 1979, they picked up and moved to Irving, Texas. Why?" Cost. It was costly to be located in New York. So we moved to New Brunswick, which put us closer to Schiff, which was our national training center. But it got costly to be in NJ, so we moved to Texas (and sold Schiff).

"Does National Care? On the most part, I say yes." I'd say no. If they did, they: * try to be more transparent (communicate with us, be clear on structure- national committees, who are one them, etc, interact with the 'rank & file', etc). * do a better job of getting good people from the 'field' on national committees, instead of money people, or allowing committees to be exclusive cliques.

"What I am confused about the Individual National Outdoor Badge is where is this worn on uniform or is it placed in a box? I am looking for some guidence to pass on to our scouts who have earned a part of this award as to what they are allowed to do with it." right pocket. If something doesn't have a specific location, you can't go wrong putting it on the right pocket. Some items are equipment decoration (Historical Trails Award, 50 Miler, Paul Bunyan) or swim trunks (mile swim, snorkeling, etc), but those are spelled out. Don't expect National to list EVERY possible patch and a location for it.

I don't who AYSO is, but love what we have in Toastmasters. Yes, TM clubs can mail or fax in member apps. But HQ prefers that we enter the information in to the system ourselves, and make all payments on-line (quicker, and less prone to mistakes, which I've seen several times in my club with delayed entries and mistakes with addresses). TM clubs are also asked to pay on-line when we do our twice a year dues payments. This has the added advantage that this removed non-active people from still being listed as active. (yes, they can be re-activated and keep all their info). If you join more then one club (and many do) you have ONE id number that is then associated with each club. And with award submissions, again, clubs are asked to do it on-line rather then mail/fax them in. When awards are submitted, emails go to the recipient and VP-Education of the club, so this is a good check if another officer (only officers can do this) submits an award. I wish more of the orgs I was in used a similiar system. Am sure that for TM this system is a real savings in terms of not needing more staff.

"Don't feel to bad, they don't even mention Sea Scout uniforms at BSAUNIFORMS.org (caps to show that it is suppose to cover all uniforms by the URL, not just national supply)." And why should they??? National Supply hasn't been the source of Sea Scout uniforms for decades. And what Sea Scout insignia they do make is usually cr*p. For some items, you have to go elsewhere to get (like the Ship's Store in CA).

Well, I found that if your an adult Venturing leader, you are kind of left out. The scouter section seems only for Boy Scout & Cub Scout leaders. And in checking out the Venturer section, they aren't clear on things like the other insignia you wear (tho you can see the red/white numerals).