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"Maybe we should be in touch with FSU chapter of Alpha Pi Omega and see if they can establish a special version of the Community Organization Award with a Garnet background in lieu of the navy blue." Its Alpha Phi Omega. And the COA knot is gold on purple, not navy blue. I know, as I wear one.

"SR540Beaver - It sounds like your lodge's Vigil Chief is a committee chairman with a nice title, not that there's anything wrong with that." I'd have to agree. What you are calling a "Vigil Chief" or a "Vice Chief for Vigil" most lodges just call the Vigil Committee Chair. Sounds like title inflation.

"Just saw the new Venturing shirt on scoutstuff.org." Not that new. It came out last spring. I first saw it at Jambo. They started selling out the old shirt, so I snagged a few, as I don't like the new shirt.

"PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE!!!!! (caps for begging not screaming )" I assume this is in response to my comment about scanning this book. thing is, I can easily scan the smaller booklets and such that I have (and put on my site). But I really can't tackle the bigger books because I don't want to damage them in scanning them. I was hoping the bookliberator would come out (bkrpr.org), but have heard of an upcoming "Ion BookSaver" (http://www.ionaudio.com/booksaver) that I hope will be reasonably priced. The BookLibertator was going to be around $300. my hope is I could then sca

I've never heard of such a position. All the lodges I know have a vigil committee, with an appointed chair (youth) and adult adviser. They do the tasks that Old_OX_Eagle83 outlined. Since they are really only active a couple of months out of the year, it seems a bit much to have a VC-Vigil.

"There was a crew leaders manual? I have never heard of it." They were done back in the 40s. There were 2 editions. "Where can someone find a copy?" eBay or the various scout memoriabilia dealers. Don't pay more then $20 for one. they are nice and have a lot of resources. At some point I'd like to scan my and put it up on my site.

"a "Sea Scout Leaders' Manual" supposedly this is a manual for youth leaders" My understanding its a manual for both youth and adult leaders, replacing the old Skipper and Crew Leader manuals, which they were working to update.

GBB earned his 5 beads many many years ago. He had a logo that had the 5 beads plus the 2 green bars that he put on stuff. I actually have no idea if BP worn more then 5 beads. Basically: Complete WB- 2 beads WB staff/Assistant Course Director- 3 beads WB Course Director- 4 beads Deputy Gilwell Camp Chief/WB National Coordinator- 5 beads Gilwell Camp Chief- 6 beads however, in the UK, no one wears more then 2 beads. they stopped doing 3 & 4 beads.

Over the years I've heard the terms "youth led" and "youth run" used. Typically you will head that we (troops, OA, Venturing, etc) is to be "youth led", but not "youth run". Ok. But what do those terms mean? I think I have an idea, but thought others out there might have a better one (no more then a paragraph) of what the 2 terms mean (I have no idea if National has anything written on them). Anyone want to take a go at it?

"1/ How skilled in Scout-Craft were you before you took the course? " Pretty skilled. I was a Boy Scout (Life for life), and went to Wood Badge in my early 20s. "2/ What skills did you learn on /from the course " 11 skills of leadership Dutch oven cooking and cardboard box cooking. Had never done this in my troop. (philmont was the first time I had ever seen a dutch oven). And seeing stuff like this at WB was neat. Other stuff was no big deal (map & compass, basic cooking, setting up tents, knots, etc) "3/How much time was spent cooking meals and clearing

"Since it appears that WB21C has become a de facto requirement in exercising leadership in today's BSA, what was it about the older Wood Badge that was deemed inadequate for exercising such leadership?" Well, what about the original WB that made it inadequate such that we had to come out with a new version?? How is that little different then ANY training program that is replaced by a new one??? Our knowledge of leadership, what works, how it works is always being worked on. B-P never knew about concepts like situational leadership, tead development, servant leadership, etc. It

"The new Venturing Handbook *is* out (just not on Scoutstuff) - but we have had copies in at the scout shop in Apopka for a while. " Uh, it is NOT a "new" Handbook. Its a new printing, with 3-4 pages changed. Nothing more. Two pages were updated with some text on YPT. This meant the Scout Oath was moved to a page with the Venturing Oath. And the page on Teen Leader Councils was re-writen to speak of Venturing Officers Associations (but not a very good re-write). What people are looking for is a NEW EDITION. Ie, one that is heavily re-writen. This ain't it. I can

"how old are all of you?" Who are you speaking to? Most of us here are adults. And many of us were involved as youth. I joined scouting as a cub, became a boy scout and stayed as an adult. "so what if national made an award towards math and science?" I think its a good idea. Others may not think so. "im in the venturing program now and you know what? its amazing. i get to see so much diversity in one meeting its amazing." ok. I've been in Venturing since day one. Longer, really as I was in Exploring before it was rolled out. "scouting was meant to bri

"I have always thought of bylaws as those things that aren't part of the Law and Oath." Yes. I do get a little sick and tired of seeing people's response to bylaws with something like "we don't need them, we have the scout oath & law". Sorry, not the same. Bylaws, as Beavah points out, defines how a organization IS organized. And its not just corporate entites that have them. Pretty much ALL organizations, big or small, do. Standard sections deal with membership, officers, meetings, committees, etc. "More like operation procedures like meeting times, when dues are due,

"But there are only a handful of medals that are authorized for uniform wear." Uh, not quite true. This is little different from the MANY MANY historical trail medals out there, most of which are approved by the BSA to be worn on the uniform. Occasionally you'll see these worn. I see the Nation Trails awards little different. Further, we have various contest medals (for the various cub scout contests, but we also had generic ones for Boy Scouts for several decades).

Sounds like a bunch of adult leaders who don't *quite* get the program. Too many adults think their job is just sit in the back and wait for the kids to ask questions. Sorry, that won't happen. While you don't want adults running the show (the other extreme), you don't want adults so layed back that the kids will do nothing, because that's what most kids will do. They need to step up and mentor these youth leaders and get some things going. Have they run VLSC (or its replacement ILSC) in the Crew? If not, why not? If this is available in council, they need to make sure atlea

How as BSA dropped the ball?? I've know about them for years, knew about the MOU and chatted with them at Jambo.

"Per BSa guidelines, you should not wear items you earned as a youth other than knots above the left pocket." Not quite. If they are medals you CAN wear them at formal occasions. Formal occasions can be blue/gold banquets, court of honors/bridge of honors, eagle court of honors, district/council banquets, etc. You don't just wear medals at any old occasions (ie, regular meetings, roundtables, training events, committee meetings, etc). A civic event would be an appropriate time to wear SOME of your medals (ie Eagle medal or the like) but not others (trail medals).

"I used to have one of those pewter pins and don't remember them being Venturing specific. I'm thinking it's the "adult" pin for he hat. The youth pin is the full FC emblem about 1" tall." In the begining, there was the universal pin (tenderfoot emblem on a ring), plus the large FC emblem. A few years ago, National came out with a pewter Venturing logo pin for the hat. I had suggested it in part because I encountered a few leaders who were very anal about the hat NOT being worn with the Venturing uniform, which I felt was incorrect. http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDeta

there is also a pewter Venturing pin that is designed to be worn on the Expedition hat. Pretty clear proof that Venturing people can wear it.

""They don't seem to think we are capable of planning anything, or executing said plan." "Did it ever occur to you that the Adult Leaders may be correct? That you really are not capable?" Engineer61, you don't seem to understand that a big part of the purpose of Scouting is to enable these youth to be capable of just this sort of thing. In the last years of Boy Scout Leader Wood Badge, they incorporated a new catchphrase that seems to have been dropped since then. I found it interesting, and its too bad we don't hear it nowadays. Its TTTTLTL. Or T5L2. My home council made a

"#1 If memory serves, WB required you to wear a "clean uniform" with no knots, oa flaps, por patches, etc. Just your council strip, 1, and patrol medallion. " Used to. Not any more. When I went thru "Boy Scout Leader Wood Badge" in the 1980, this was so. When they rolled out 21st Century WB, only the staff was required to do stripped uniforms, not the participants (so we wouldn't intemediate the participants. we wore participant neckers and not wb neckers). A few years back when they did minor tweaks, they dropped even requiring the staff to wear a stripped uniform. T

BP- No one is disputing that there are people in scouting who are in it for themselves and not the youth. Yes, many of them gravitate to the upper eschelons of the organization. I have had run ins with these types over the years. However, wearing a lot of knots OR being involved at levels above the unit does NOT mean one is in it for themselves and not the youth.

Others pointed you to the seascout.org website for resources. As to vessels. I know of ships who have no vessels, making use of what they can. Some ships are 'scuba ships', so might not sail, but use powerboats of other adults to go diving. I know of ships that use kayaks, canoes, small sail boats (sunfish and the like), larger hobie cats, larger sailing boats. I have heard of ships who own and maintain large, decommissioned vessels. Its all in what you have available. Many ships will actually have 2 sponsors. One is their 'traditional' sponsor (community org or the lik

To add to Beavah's comment. The Venturing Leaders Manual speaks of bylaws and provides a bare bones (very bare bones) template. The Sea Scout Manual does the same for Ships. Further, the use of bylaws is ALSO mentioned in the Venturing Leader Specific Training. Not certain off the top of my head if the Sea Scout Leader training does the same. Further, OA Lodges have bylaws, tho they call them "Lodge Rules". These are covered in the "Guidebook for Officers and Advisers". As to Packs, Troops, Teams, NOTHING is said regarding bylaws. So one could assume they aren't needed. N